Ivy Tuition for Upper Middle Class

It depends on the definition of "upper middle class."  I think Princeton is very generous on incomes up to $250,000.

And all Princeton aid is in the form of grants, not loans. From Princeton's website:

I'm paying so much more for college than I ever imagined, and I've been planning for years, felt I was as well informed as anyone , and by no means a wealthy man.  For years I said "no way, will they expect me to pay that."  Boy was I wrong.

My kids don't go to Ivy but I'm sure that Princeton chart is crap.  It doesn't take into account your assets or home equity, for example.

No, I'm not bitter

CTbballDad posted:

I'm paying so much more for college than I ever imagined, and I've been planning for years, felt I was as well informed as anyone , and by no means a wealthy man.  For years I said "no way, will they expect me to pay that."  Boy was I wrong.

My kids don't go to Ivy but I'm sure that Princeton chart is crap.  It doesn't take into account your assets or home equity, for example.

No, I'm not bitter

The way I read it, below $180,000 every single applicant qualified, but between $180,000 and $250,000 it varied, depending on things like assets or home equity, but still most people qualified. Above $250,000 most did not.

Just for comparison, though, the 90th percentile for household income in this country was $170,000 in 2017, and the 95th percentile was $225,000 (see https://dqydj.com/united-state...rackets-percentiles/). For the vast majority of American families, the grants from an Ivy like Princeton are a better deal than a partial baseball scholarship (for most players, of course -- there are some outstanding players getting 90%+ at some schools)

2019Dad posted:

CTbballDad posted:

I'm paying so much more for college than I ever imagined, and I've been planning for years, felt I was as well informed as anyone , and by no means a wealthy man.  For years I said "no way, will they expect me to pay that."  Boy was I wrong.

My kids don't go to Ivy but I'm sure that Princeton chart is crap.  It doesn't take into account your assets or home equity, for example.

No, I'm not bitter

The way I read it, below $180,000 every single applicant qualified, but between $180,000 and $250,000 it varied, depending on things like assets or home equity, but still most people qualified. Above $250,000 most did not.

Just for comparison, though, the 90th percentile for household income in this country was $170,000 in 2017, and the 95th percentile was $225,000 (see https://dqydj.com/united-state...rackets-percentiles/). For the vast majority of American families, the grants from an Ivy like Princeton are a better deal than a partial baseball scholarship (for most players, of course -- there are some outstanding players getting 90%+ at some schools)

To add: Princeton's endowment of $22+ billion and undergraduate enrollment of 5,300 means it has the highest per student endowment in the country; they can afford it.

2019Dad posted:

It depends on the definition of "upper middle class."  I think Princeton is very generous on incomes up to $250,000.

And all Princeton aid is in the form of grants, not loans. From Princeton's website:

Gross Family Income	Percent Qualified	Average Grant	What It Covers
$0–65,000	100%	$67,350	Full tuition, college fee, room + board
$65,000–85,000	100%	$62,865	Full tuition, college fee, 76% room + board
$85,000–100,000	100%	$59,140	Full tuition, college fee, 54% room + board
$100,000–120,000	100%	$55,540	Full tuition, college fee, 32% room + board
$120,000–140,000	100%	$53,180	Full tuition, college fee, 17% room + board
$140,000–160,000	100%	$50,000	Full tuition
$160,000–180,000	100%	$43,900	89% tuition
$180,000–200,000	91%	$38,810	78% tuition
$200,000–250,000	83%	$29,900	60% tuition
$250,000 and above (most who qualify have 2 children in college)	33%	$22,880	46% tuition

This isn't accurate if you have significant assets.  For example, if you have money in a 529, significant investment accounts, rental property, etc you may likely get $0 even if you have low income.

CTbballDad posted:

I'm paying so much more for college than I ever imagined, and I've been planning for years, felt I was as well informed as anyone , and by no means a wealthy man.  For years I said "no way, will they expect me to pay that."  Boy was I wrong.

My kids don't go to Ivy but I'm sure that Princeton chart is crap.  It doesn't take into account your assets or home equity, for example.

No, I'm not bitter

CTbballdad is in the same boat as me. My wife is ticked, because her feelings are had we pissed away our money instead of saving it we would not be paying as much for college. Damned if you do, damned if you don’t.

You are dead on the money (pun intended) regarding how financial aide will look at your assets. My family falls in what I would consider “too comfortable to be poor, too poor to be rich “ category. My plan to retire and watch my son’s college ball games just got a reality check when we got back the financial aid pkg for him. I called as spoke to the head honcho and she informed me our assets played a significant factor, as well as having a sibling enrolled in an undergrad program. We get to pay for 3 years at full sticker price when she graduates her undergrad, even though she is going to medical school after. Yeah, gonna start a go fund me page I think.

In retrospect, I am honored to foot the bill for these two kids of mine, they are achieving their goals, and equally important, their dreams. Proud as hell of both of them.

This is all so frustrating!  None of this seems to take into account cost of living, which is a real game changer in several parts of the country. Garyme—agree with your wife that we should have just spent our money rather than saving it—maybe one of us should quit our jobs too! 

I get that Ivy schools are in a special league (pun intended), but even so, it seems the value of a college degree these days is not what it used to be and kids really need a graduate degree to get ahead. So, paying full sticker price for Ivy undergrad when a kid can get significant merit and/or athletic money at a great non-Ivy school does not seem to make a whole lot of economical sense, unless you are made of money. 

I agree. Other schools are good too.if you can't afford ivy get a nice degree at a good college you can afford.

My calculator is ordering me and my wife to quit our jobs before 2022 

This takes as much planning as the development of Johnny.

Our financial planner mentioned , “Strategic Divorce” when my son was born based on the rising costs of College and the availability of eventual scholarships and grants.

I’ve passed on this info to many and the FAFSA calculator rings like a one armed bandit.

Similar to a Company filing bankruptcy or Commercial Banks claiming a Strategic Default; it does not indicate the lack of financial strength of the firm. Rather, it’s a Strategy to move you to a better financial outcome based on an existing detrimental landscape.

”Due” the Numbers.

Smitty is right that significant assets will alter the calculation, with two exceptions: (1) your primary residence is not counted; (2) retirement accounts are not counted. With those exceptions, from what I've read, they'll expect 5% of assets to be available for college expenses. So someone with, say, $1.5 million in non-retirement, non-primary-residence assets is not getting grants, even if their income is $0.

I assure you I am nowhere near that number and I will draw a big goose-egg in institutional grant $ when my daughter completes her undergrad and my son starts his sophomore year. The financial aid Dept clearly told me the equity in my primary residence was an asset that was considered. So, it may be a school-to-school situation with how they allocate grant aid, as the endowments of schools obviously differ. My sons future school has a $700M+ endowment. Not sure where the 5% number you reference comes from, maybe that applies to a particular Ivy League school, but in my case I would do cartwheels at the prospect of paying 5% of my assets in tuition.

Pretty interesting write-up on assets:

https://www.collegedata.com/cs...html?articleId=10089

This is precisely why my son went EA and RD. We told him we need to see there FA packages before any commitment. 

2019Dad posted:

Smitty is right that significant assets will alter the calculation, with two exceptions: (1) your primary residence is not counted; (2) retirement accounts are not counted. With those exceptions, from what I've read, they'll expect 5% of assets to be available for college expenses. So someone with, say, $1.5 million in non-retirement, non-primary-residence assets is not getting grants, even if their income is $0.

Your primary resident home equity counts for schools that use the CSS Profile, which is the majority of HA schools.  5.64% of your non-retirement goes toward your EFC.  If you're "upper middle class" based on the title of this thread, I would think you'd have some assets.

CTbballDad posted:

2019Dad posted:

Smitty is right that significant assets will alter the calculation, with two exceptions: (1) your primary residence is not counted; (2) retirement accounts are not counted. With those exceptions, from what I've read, they'll expect 5% of assets to be available for college expenses. So someone with, say, $1.5 million in non-retirement, non-primary-residence assets is not getting grants, even if their income is $0.

Your primary resident home equity counts for schools that use the CSS Profile, which is the majority of HA schools.  5.64% of your non-retirement goes toward your EFC.  If you're "upper middle class" based on the title of this thread, I would think you'd have some assets.

Yeah, it differs by school. He mentioned Princeton in the original post; Princeton does not count your primary residence, and I believe uses 5%, not 5.64%. For the vast majority of Americans, it can be a great deal. For the top 20% in terms of income/assets, perhaps not a great deal.

The financial aid is based on FAFSA at all schools, thus the final amount would apply anywhere.  The grant/scholarship money (academic and athletic) are the ones that can be manipulated.  Private/Ivy universities generally have big endowment and supporters.  Even though it might cost a few buck to visit these schools and camps it might turn out for the best.  Once son gets these schools narrowed down to best fit, schedule an appointment with financial aid office (keep coaches also appraised) and see what the bottom line cost will be.  You would be surprised to see how much academic money is given when the athletic money doesn't meet your expectations.  This works best where the coach really wants son to play for him.  My nephew plays college basketball at a private university.  A financial offer was presented to nephew, didn't meet their expectation since would still cost too much.  Talks went on for a few months, each time university found more money.  At the end of the day, final offer was something like $29K more than original offer.  If they really want your kid, there will be a way.  Good luck

So last night at dinner out with some friends this topic came up.  Some insisted that, even where their "official" financial aid estimators say zero aid, Ivy schools (and others with large endowments) can and often do adjust their "need-based" parameters so that they can offer money to athletes.  That's not the sense I'm getting from reading many of the threads here, but wondered if anyone has knowledge of this?

Trust In Him--I sent my last post before seeing yours, and you kind of answered my question.  I suppose you never know until you try.  First hurdle is getting accepted/baseball offer!