JC transfers to D1s-Observations

PUH dad, this is an interesting observation, but there is another way to look at it. First, how many h.s. kids go D1 out of h.s.? Very few. The ones that do are clearly of a different caliber and are scooped up quickly. For those that go the J.C. route I'd say the vast majority of them do so because they need further development of their skills. Some percentage because of grades.

What I'm saying is, most of these players don't "choose" to go the J.C. route, rather they are forced.

If a player is forced to go J.C. because of grades it may not be the end of the line. Present ability speaks for itself. That player may transfer to a small 4-yr school and still get drafted. However, if a player is forced to J.C. because of ability, well, all the worrying in the world won't improve that problem.

Why worry about the percentages/numbers on the D1 rosters? The number of transfers will of course be small, considering 80-90% of the marquee players go D1 in the first place. So the pool of eligible talent is much less at the JC level. That's a given.

Kids progress at different rates, and some really mature in J.C. and make that jump. There's nothing wrong with them and they have nothing to worry about. They can beat the odds. If they have the talent and grades.

I have a son at a junior college. He had a 3.5 out of high school, he also had a D1 offer.I can say this there are kids on JC rosters that can play at the D1 level.
I do agree that grades are probably an issue for some of them, and also many want to get drafted or think they might have a chance.
I think players get missed(Evan Longoria comes to mind, not one look out of HS).
I think the most important thing is that if your good and do well at a JC, and play for a good JC program as we have several in California.You will find a place to play.Maybe not at a Pac 10. I will let you know how it turns out for us.

PUHD:

I have not done the research that you have, but what you are saying is probably true to a degree here on the west coast. The number of D1 programs is realtively small in comparison to the number of kids that play ball.

Most programs only need 8-12 kids a year. If you are going to recruit kids and you can find academicly qualified kids out of HS, you know that you will likely have them for 4-years.

In CA a big part of the state university system's mission is to educate those coming out of JC's. It is a fact, that does not mean that there is not opportunity, because there is. But, I suspect that what you are saying about JC transfers, espcially to Pac-10 schools is probably true.

Generally, the mission of JC's is to educate those from a given community for the purposes of moving on through that state's college system. If baseball is part of the equation, you need to understand how your state works and what the opportunities are coming out of your JC system.

Every year, I see kids in our area go to a JC that could not find an opportunity in a west coast D1 school. They get there (to the JC) and find all kinds of competition, some make it but many do not. They play some or part of their JC years and then baseball is over. The kids that move on were probably good enough out of HS and did not get the opportunity for one of several reasons.

Part of your job as a parent is to know what the options are. If your son wants to play on the west coast and he is likely to go to a JC, great, but what will the options look like.

One thing that I would like more parents to realize is that finding an opportunity to play college ball is not easy. Be realistic and expand your horizons.

IVLBB,

That was a good post. I think what you say about expanding your horizons is true. You may have to leave Ca.I know at the school my son is at there were 120 kids the first day of fall tryouts. They are now down to about 60.Many of these players who didnt make it were not even starters st their HS. This is a strong JC program and its very competitive. Many will redshirt. Now people say redshirting at a jc is not good, but unless you are a qualifier like my son (he only needs 48 units to move on ) others need 60. If they come in without a foreign language, if they need remedial math and english they are already behind.
So you have to be a strong student to get out of a JC any more in 2 years.
So alot of those players just dont make it academically.If you want to be considered for a D1 out of a JC you need at least a 3.0. That is one of biggest obstacles as I stated before.
Players do move on, some dont , odds at each level are tough. if you do look at rosters most of the hs players dont play much their first two years at the PAC 10 unless they are just studs, and there are not a large percent of those types of players. All you can do is play at the level your at, work hard and try and get to the next level. If not you go to a 4 year, have fun get your degree and join the work force.

quote:

Originally posted by Pop Up Hitter dad:
I researched the PAC 10 rosters, what I found out was the majority prefer HS prospects with a small amount of JC/other college transfers. Some were out and out 0% with a few as high as 15%. But it appears going the JC route, the chances of getting on the big diamond is small. I checked D2 schools and it appears that is where many JC transfers go. I would assume D3 would be the same. Only one D2 school had only HS players. Does this sound true for other conferences? Many on this list stated JC is a stepping stone to the D1 programs, but my research shows otherwise. At least there is a chance to go D2 or D3 and finish up your baseball and education.

Check the Big West rosters, I think you'll find a lot of JC transfers. Unless you are familiar with the names of the CA JCs its not so easy to determine if a player came from a JC or HS on many of the d1 rosters.

CA D1s spend a lot of time scouting the quality players in the JC system, along with a number of out of state D1 schools and pro scouts.......

Thanks college parent,

That keeps us Jc players moms hopeful. I have also seen a lot of JC transfers on a lot of rosters.And I have seen so many coaches at games.

With a quick look, there are about 7 JC players per team in the Big West.

Cal Poly 8
Davis 6
Fullerton 7
Irvine 7
Long Beach 8
Northridge 5
Pacific 6

ILVBB, I fully agree that from my perspective getting on a college team isn't as easy as it sounds, the numbers are against you. Son did get offer for tuition and fees from out of state JC. So far he seems to be taking the wait and see attitude with is fine with me as I believe we can find one closer to home. But we are working with his summer team manager to check out more local JCs. He said he can recommend which programs to look into. It really helps to have someone with good connections and is well informed on our local JCs. It remains to be seen if Pop up's son finally takes education seriously in order to continue baseball.

.
44 observations/sense....for JC players/parents...

Pure California DI Numbers Game?...The initial West Coast "DI market" is much bigger than the Pac 10...In addition he Big West, the WAC, the WCC and the Mountain West Conference all play in and around California. Crunched numbers last night after the post...There are 35 baseball schools in these conferences (omitted 3 schools who simply don't don't do JC's). In a rough count there are 356 Non freshman roster positions (transfers included as they "seasoned" players) posted on the official program websites. This is 9.6 per team. This means that historically there are nearly 9-10 spots on each roster available in this DI market. With roster shrinkage, this is roughly 25% of the DI rosters by average, and we have yet to see if the shrinkage offers more JC opportunity. Lesson: Opportunity DOES exist for the talented and the diligent.

More numbers game/a case study....The Riverside JC site offcially lists 14 eligible sophomores for 2008, 3 signed DI, 4 with DII's, 4 at NAIA. Of those 3 DI signees, 2 were in CA DI's. The numbers are at least as good and likely better than the chance of DI out of HS, and you have 2 years of on the field experience, and a solid academic footing should you choose to. Lesson: Choose wisely, Know the transfer rate for your CA JC.

The role of academics in DI Decisions...Talking to CA JC parents and watching many CA JC programs, would submit that NCAA DI academic requirements are nearly as big a barrier to Ca JC players as athletics. Many JC players, get behind academcially, take the wrong classes, undervalue the academic side, and simply end up without a DI option. This is not universally true, some schools and players make a real effort. Lesson: Those who work hard at staying on top of DI academics the options/numbers improve dramatically.

Expanding the market?...No problem with going outside the state...CA JC players are scattered throughout the country. Yesterday a Big 12 coach came and watched son's JC practice. Lesson: CA JC's get watched, opportunities exist, work hard in all areas to keep all your options open.

Expanding the market II?...No problem with CA DII, DIII, NAIA. Tough baseball.

The "TR HIT Rule"... At some point you are going to have to beat the odds. At some point you are going to have to prove yourself more worthy than someone else. This is not a bad thing, it is the nature of the beast. Lesson: Welcome to a competitive world.

More numbers game...It only takes 1, yours. Nothing better than beating others long odds. Lesson: Go get that single spot.

44
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Fan of the Game;

For 25 years, I have observed the Junior College Baseball and educational programs in California, Arizona and Nevada.

Santa Rosa JC has 30,000 students and is regarded as one of the top academic colleges in the USA. When my son, Robert attended they finished 3rd in the State Tournament. The starting lineup all attended major 4 year colleges.

D. White is still playing pro baseball, T.Cossins is the Marlins catching instructor. Robert is the SSK baseball rep to the ML teams.

Sonoma State [Division 2 College World Series 2008]
Their annual roster is 60% JC transfers, 20 % Division 1 transfers and 20% Freshman.

Junior Colleges like Serra, SRJC, Sac State, Fresno City,Butte and the Southern California JC are strong programs.

The California JC are separate from the USA Junior College and have their own tournament.

The games and tournaments are scouted by the professionals and college coaches.

Bob Williams

I realize, of course, we are talking about transfers from JUCOs to D1s; however, I just wanted to point out that here in Texas... 13 of the draft picks in the top 25 rounds were from Texas JUCOs. The 13 does not include include later rounds OR Texas D1s drafted that originally started at JUCOs.

Every year, I see kids that want to continue playing baseball shun opportunity to get a great education to pursue the dream of playing “big time” college baseball. What I find disturbing is when the kids and their parents don’t understand what the numbers mean and what will likely be the outcome.

From my prospective, there are three primary reasons (there are many variations) why kids don’t have the opportunity out of HS to play at a 4-year school:

1. They did not play at a level, or were not seen by those that make the recruiting decisions, such that they were recruited.
2. They did not have the academics to meet the requirements.
3. They did not have the physical presence yet to demand the attention of college recruiters.

I have left out 2 common factors for choosing a JC; personal maturity and financial ability needed to attend a 4-year school. I have done so largely in the belief that if someone would have offered a scholarship and an opportunity it likely would have been accepted.

When I talk with families about playing ball in college, I generally try to steer them to address what will change during 2-years of JC ball.

If the kid was a reserve or not a front line player in HS, what has changed such that he will be a front line player at his JC? The reality is that each JC will bring in 50-150 players a year, how will this kid stand-up to the competition? Will he be able to distinguish himself?

A factor for many a kid out of HS is academics. If the kid was not a “qualifier” out of HS what is going to change such that he will earn his AA and become a recruitable commodity? If he does not challenge himself to the extent necessary will he be in the same boat 2-years latter?

My biggest concern with lots of kids is my third factor. I see kids all the time that were average players, reserves and kids that made a limited impact on their HS teams choose a JC in the belief that they will be able to move on to their “dream” D1 school. I always ask the question is this the best move for the person? What is going to change, will he grow and become stronger, run faster, develop a cannon of an arm? Every year, I see kids that have a great opportunity to go to some of the best universities in the country to get an education forgo the chance to be a college student to follow the dream of playing baseball. While there is nothing wrong with following your dream, sometimes parents need to be there for their kids to help them see the reality of the situation.

I have watched JC baseball (good CA JC ball) for about 5-years. On average, I see 4-6 kids on each team that can move on and play ball at a 4-year school (at all levels D1 to D3). That is not to say that they all will, some may have choices which they are unwilling to accept, some may not have the financial means to accept their opportunity. The reality from my prospective is that there are players that don’t get picked up out of HS which can and will move on. You can generally spot them within a day of two. However, for many it is only a dream.

I subscribe to a different point of view. For most kids, college is a time to grow, mature; become exposed to new people, places and experiences. Much of this experience can be achieved only when kids leave home and stand on their own. If baseball is part of the equation, great, however sacrificing the chance for a kid to grow for a dream may not serve your son well.

I like the “TR Hit rule” you will have to “beat the odds” and there is nothing wrong with that as long as the parent, kid and those that love him know what is at stake. JC ball is competitive and a great place for kids to grow. However, it does not always result in the fulfillment of dreams. The numbers are against you, be aware, know what your strengths and weakness are and with a lot of luck you may earn the opportunity to move on.

Mine had good $$ offers from a couple D-1's, a number of D-2's and several JUCO's. He chose the JUCO route because he wants to be draft eligible every year and he wants to start as a Freshman. He wants to play and hone his skills every day and continue to be scouted.

The scouts basically said if you want baseball to pay for your college go to a 4 year program. If you want to play baseball as a professional go JUCO.

Mine was a little different as he missed his entire senior season due to injury. He had a lot of interest after his Junior year and the fall leading up to Christmas, but he became a question mark after requiring surgery.

There are many good reasons to go the JUCO route, and here in Florida many JUCO teams can compete quite nicely with many D-1's.

Lots of different stats and opinions.
I agree with the facts of kids not having the correct academics out of HS and out of a JC.
I am going to use my son as an example for all of these statistics.
Junior year made first team all league,went to stanford camp they told him that he needed to get stronger , that he had a good feel for hitting
2. so he goes to a trainer 5 days a week, hour drive each way, senior year starts, he works out 3 mornings a week at 530 am before school for the entire season.
3. He has had several D3 offers but wants to play D1(I was dissapointed)
4. senior year 2nd team all state, mvp of his league, 1st team all city, was in the top ten for hits, HR, RBI,
5. gets a D1 scholarship but backs out-didnt feel it was the right place for him and we were having financial problems and school was still 25,000 a year with 50% scholarship
So he decides he wants to go to a JC what do I tell him NO give up baseball go get your degree

so he is at one of the most competitve JCs. He is playing with guys 2 years older than him. he is competing well, hitting well,doing well in the classroom, having fun, we are saving money

story to be continued for after his freshmen year.

Observer44, BOB we will be seeing you guys. lets see what happens

My son was offered partial scholarship to a JUCO in Georgia. His grandparents live nearby school. He visited the school, liked what he saw. But, then a very good DIII close to home contacted him. They would like to recruit him. Very high tuition, over $30k per year. Some possible academic money, but still after all is said and done, the JUCO will be about half of the DIII. Down south he gets to play ball from Jan thru Oct. Maybe he will get better skills so that he can move on to a DII. Then he would possibly get more scholly money. What do you all think? He likes both schools equally

equipman,

Thats a hard question to answr. Can you afford the tuition at the D3, do they have his major? does he like the coaches? People say FIND the RIGHT fit and that is not the same for all.Most of the D3 colleges offer a excellent education. If he likes the school and would be happy there and you can afford it go to the four year.If you get some academic money that will help.if he likes them equally he has to choose. Finances play a big partn esp. right now in this economy. good luck

He does like the school and the coaches at both. Both schools have his academic program. But the tuition is a little steep for me. Until he goes to the scholarship day to see if he can get more and then we file the fafsa in January, we won't know for sure where we stand. I wish you could file the fafsa earlier so that you could make a decision sooner. The JUCO wants a decision by the early signing date which is in mid January. When the JUCO called to make the offer, he told my son that he was the first one they made the offer to, if that means much.

This may give you some idea as to EFC:

http://www.finaid.org/calculators/finaidestimate.phtml

Good Luck!

My son did the whole financial aid and application with a D3 and it was later than January before we knew what was going on.It is a little stressful to try and figure that all out.
There are several posters on here whose sons go to D3 schools that could be of some help.Maybe some of them will step in and help.
As far a JUCo, we have JCs here in Ca. and they do not give any money. My son is at one and he likes it. Now if he wasnt playing baseball he would be at a 4 year enjoying aspects of that whole package, but he wants to play baseball and he is almost 19 years old. We talked about this for so long that really I am glad its over. We argued and disagreed, I cam on this board and started my first post called Hes changing his mind. That post had some wonderful people that supported me and really helped me see that it was my sons choice. See if you can find that thread becasue its a good one.
This is a difficult time for you guys trying to decide. If money is really a huge issue than think about the challenge of that for 4 years. Now the one good thing about the D3 schools we looked at is they graduate their kids in four years.The school we visited, the kids took 16 units a semester, now there classes are 4 units so that still 4 classses.
I loved the D3 we went to look at but I LOVED IT he wasnt ready to go to a D3, he felt he had a shot at a bigger school and wanted football.
Now that he is at the JC it is nice at home. we are all at peace and that is worth more than any amt. of money. I would apply to the D3, call their financial aide.at the one my son went to it was a 3.5 to receive any academic money and he was awarded 6,000. the tuition was about 32,000 that still left us with 26,000. We just could not do that. We are now getting set up and working hard to be able to pay for a 4 year school at the end of all this. good luck

I am not sure some people understand that if a player was not D1,2 or 3 eligible they will rarely make it from Juco to either division. They will have to work harder in the classroom than on the field, and that means their game suffers.

More and more players are attending JUCO because of the roster limits imposed on D1. More and more coaches want players who do not need academic babysitting out of JUCO. The players who are attending JUCO that are doing so to mature physically (not because of academics) or financial reasons (unable to pay the high costs at this time) will be the first choice for most college coaches.

good post tpm

Scenario one: HS kid no college offers, 2.0 out of HS, doesnt have 2 years of foreign language, needs Enlish A because he isnt ready for college compositin class, also needs remedial math
He is already 4 classes behind to get his 60 units needed to transfer.(hes looking at three years at a JC)
He doesnt see a counselor, not NCAA qualified, doesnt have the 16(14) I forget classes he needs from HS. He needs 60 transferrable units, TRANSFERABLE: Math, science with lab, Eng comp 1a 1b etc, etc.

scenario 2: 3.0 to a 3.8 out of HS, maybe no looks, NCAA qualified, has seen a college counselor, has all the clases out of HS to go to a 4 year, works hard at a JC gets a 3.0 and is now bigger stronger

The 1st scenario folks happens way too often. Many of these kids never go on, even if they have the talent

even at a JC you are still a student athlete, dont hold your breath to get drafted.and if you have ****** grades the money is even lower from the MLB because they know you have no where to go.

Observer44 gives one hope, I see two opinions, one JCs don't usually make it unless they out work everyone else and the other that by reviewing D1 rosters says otherwise. Of ILVBBs three reasons, my son meets number 2. He is big enough, and has been seen by tons of coaches. So our only hope is he turns into a student, at this time not likely. I see no difference in his studies from last year, he surely must know by now time is running out. My thoughts are to let him play basketball/baseball regardless of grades. If they fall to a certain point, school will say no. It's his last year, why take something away and hear about it the rest of my life. I would rather him say "Dad you didn't push me enough" And I can say, you were stubborn as as mule and I was tired of beating my head against a wall BY MYSELF. Great information from all the good people on this list!