jdfromfla, I am not an expert by any means but...

Its just like throwing a rock! Just throw a lot of rocks when you are 4 or 5 or 6...you will develop a good throwing motion...

Your son is 13 and throws 85? Ya, right.

Bum, that was in 2005, 6 years ago.

jmpbama92,
What is his velocity now?

TPM, that was my oldest son then. He is grown and has kids. This is my youngest son. I should have not mentioned how fast he throws because that will always be challenged. My youngest son has the traits of his two older brothers. My oldest is 6'3 and 170 while my middle son is 6'0 220. Now my baby is 13 getting ready to turn 14 and he is 5'11 165. All I can say is that each of my sons have been such a blessing. I thank God everyday for them.

TPM is there any chance this can be transferred over to the Convention On Over-use?

Bamafella thanks for the input, it has pertainence and I appreciate it.

quote:

Originally posted by jmpbama92:
TPM, that was my oldest son then. He is grown and has kids. This is my youngest son. I should have not mentioned how fast he throws because that will always be challenged. My youngest son has the traits of his two older brothers. My oldest is 6'3 and 170 while my middle son is 6'0 220. Now my baby is 13 getting ready to turn 14 and he is 5'11 165. All I can say is that each of my sons have been such a blessing. I thank God everyday for them.

I was just refering to Bum's post, which I assumed was to you. So I looked back at your previous posts, and it was in 2005 that you mentioned a HS freshman son throwing high velocity, I didn't see anything posted on your youngest one, perhaps you removed it or I am totally confused.

FWIW, I do agree with much of what you have said as do others about how to treat young pitchers. I also believe it is a parents responsibility as well, to make sure that their kids can stay in the game as long as possible without sustaining career ending injury. The bottom line is that no one cares more about your player than you, it is your obligation to protect.

JD have no idea how to do that, hope all is well on your end.

TPM, he said his 13 y.o. was throwing mid-80's, but he removed that part. I don't want to embarrass anyone, but c'mon now! You and I both know real velocity and how hard it is to achieve. If he is willing to post that on a public board I can only guess how many of his friends are rolling their eyes privately.

But anyway, he does offer some good points, fish stories and all.

Bum, I do not have to prove anything to you or anyone else on this board. Not here to fight, but just to try and help some other kid from getting injured. I will tell you this. Zach (my youngest son) is a very good baseball player, and he will be pitching and playing third for a high school varsity team in the area we live. He played quite a few games last year on the high school varsity baseball team as a 7th grader. I will post some video links of him pitching and hitting in high school games this season. Then you can tell me if he is what I say he is. Some of the kids he will be facing this year are already committed to play college ball at Alabama, Auburn, and Ole Miss. One of my sons teammates was out in Arizona last week participating in the Power Showcase homerun derby. Thanks for your post Bum!!!!

Please, don't post your son's name or his video, at least not on my behalf. I don't want to "fight" either, but my comments were not directed at your boy or his ability, only the embellishment of a dad.

BTW my son was cut from a travel team at age 13 after they said his arm was weak. And he was throwing only 79 at age 15. Only goes to show it's not where you start but where you finish.

quote:

Originally posted by Bum:
Only goes to show it's not where you start but where you finish.

This statement is so true.

No problems here Bum, many dads and coaches alike said the samething you said until they saw him pitch. Then they just stood there in amazement, most just wondered where we came from and wanted to check his birth cirtificate. The thing is that due to his older brothers playing baseball; he has played baseball since he could walk, and he has pitched since started playing when he was five years old. Not me teaching him how to pitch, but him begging my oldest son to teach him. Truth be told, I have had little to do with his pitching ability. It mostly comes from just hard work, and throwing long toss with my oldest son. Thanks for replying!!!

quote:

Originally posted by Bum:
TPM, he said his 13 y.o. was throwing mid-80's, but he removed that part. I don't want to embarrass anyone, but c'mon now! You and I both know real velocity and how hard it is to achieve. If he is willing to post that on a public board I can only guess how many of his friends are rolling their eyes privately.

But anyway, he does offer some good points, fish stories and all.

Oh ok, I thought that might be the case.
Could very well be that he has sons who were hurlers (touching is a lot different than consistant velo), but as you state, it's not where you begin but where you end up.

jmp,
My son was a high velo guy in HS, so I understand when people are amazed. I am sure your son is talented like your others, however, to be honest how one does as a freshman is no indication, how he will do as a senior. Using the son that you posted about in 2005(as you didn't answer if he is still playing), would you agree that to be true?

I find it a bit overbearing at times, those of us who have players beyond the HS game, know and understand how it works (even when blessed with good stuff), so I personally don't take much with a grain of salt until the player is beyond HS (if you are still around at that time).

BTW, pitching beginning at 5 is ridiculous and I am not impressed. JMO.

I, for one, would love to see the video of the 13 yr old throwing mid 80's!

I know of one. He was/is the real deal. He will be drafted in the first round out of HS this year...he is also not a pitcher.

JMPBama92,

quote:

“I am a dad who has taught all three of his sons to pitch a baseball”

.

This is the way it should be and because what traditional professionals teach is injurious at all aspects fathers know just as much as they do when dealing with proper mechanics.
The best way to proceed is to learn what everybody teaches and compare their actual credentials in Human motor performance, Kinesiology and exercise physiology.

quote:

IMO the answer to your post below lies with getting rid of the innings pitched in youth baseball and going to a strict pitch count.

Ahhhmennn to this statement!!, youth pitchers are extremely susceptible to bone growth abnormalities at this biological age! After they turn biologically 16 (not chronological) the growth plates in their elbows have solidifies and more stress can be added at this time.

quote:

“Secondly, coaches and parents alike should teach kids to use some tools needed to be a good pitcher.”

Yes! Mechanics, if you have taught your kids the traditional version you have failed in doing this.

quote:

“One of the tools is running after any pitching appearance no matter the pitch count.”

Sprints are good but have nothing to do with pitching other than defending your position and advancing offensively.

quote:

“Another is using rubber bands and light weights (AKA abduction and intuction exercises).”

When Jack LeLane first introduced rubber bands on us all it was found that this minimally resistive overload was not good enough for athletes and only made you good at stretching them. This may be OK for youth athletes but useless in young adults and adults. Please explain “intuction”, I have never run across this term?

quote:

“One thing that really bothers me is why do people who have great baseball knowledge charge for tips and information dealing with arm care and maintenance.”

This bothers me to!! Especially when even the nominal mechanics from the most prestigious Org. out there still produces radical injuries after 20 years of research.
It seems their research has turned out to be anecdotal (Noley did it this way) and not scientific leaving their clients with the same mechanics as everybody else.

quote:

“I mean pitching has been around before most of these guys obtained their info and will be around long after they are gone.”

Leaving a long line of destroyed arms, shoulders, backs, hips and knees in their wake.

quote:

“Anything dealing with keeping kids healthy and safe should be free to the public”

There is one place you can go for free information and it is the best information money can’t buy by the leading expert in the field who has eliminated all pitching related injuries when the athlete is properly fit. Just go over to Dr.MikeMarshall.com and learn.

quote:

“Remember these are all JMOs”

Your opinion was well worth the time.

According to PG the oldest son threw 80mph at a showcase at 15yo. He was moderately highly ranked in the 2008 class based on reportedly throwing high 80's touching 90 or so at the JO's.

The numbers he's reporting for the youngest son are similar to what Robert Stock was able to do at 13yo so certainly not impossible, but very, very rare.

The hardest 13-year-old thrower I ever saw was in the 78-80 range. Stock may have thrown harder. Also, if you consider someone at 13 year and 11 months a 13-year-old, I might raise that range to 81-83.

It is an interesting point that we now have some years of perspective on Stock -- that he went pro as a catcher, not as a pitcher!

Stock was up to 78 or 79 at 12yo and throwing high 80s at 14yo as a HS freshman. I don't know what he was able to throw at 13yo. There were a lot of stories that he was throwing 80 mph at 12yo but if I remember correctly, and I could be wrong, his dad said that he didn't hit 80 mph at 12yo.

There was a young 12 year old a few years back that my son played travelball with. He was throwing in the mid to upper 70's and was a very famous little leaguer with his arm and bat. Unfortunately, he didn't grow much after age 12/13, and had an average HS career. I don't know where and if he's playing now?

Another young man in our area was a hard throwing RHP, clocked at 91 as a 14 year old freshman and rated very high by PG. He ended up having surgery on his Labrum, missed his senior year of HS, and no longer pitches. Last I checked, he is playing the INF at a junior college out of state...you just never know?

OP says he taught all 3 sons how to pitch, now his youngest son was taught by his oldest.

So not really sure what to beleive at this point.

TPM, what I meant about teaching my sons how to pitch was that all three have the same general fundamentals. My oldest son worked in mostly on helping my younger son in building arm strength. He did this by long toss and using the back of the pitchers mound as a form of resistance when throwing. My belief is that my youngest son's ability to throw hard comes from working with a more mature baseball player (oldest son) and being able to stay with him physically and mentally. TPM or anyone else, I would like to hear your thoughts on TRAMP training with a medicine ball.

Yardbird, stop being so closed minded. Sure Mike Marshall has some quality ideas, but he also is not the be all do all when it comes to pitching. Since my oldest started pitching over 15 years ago, I have seen a vast amount of pitching opinions and methods a pitcher should master in order to become the so called perfect pitcher. The problem with this is there is no such thing as the perfect pitcher. Also, each pitcher is different, so is the method taken by each pitcher to become effective. Some pitchers are power pitchers and some are finess pitchers. Some pitchers throw over the top, three quarters, side arm, or submarine. Some pitchers have tight tendons and ligaments. Some have lose tendons and ligaments. Some pitchers physically develop earlier than others. Some pitchers never develop phycically. I am just blessed that God gave me sons that were able to pitch effectively with the tools I had been taught and learned through the years. In closing, Mike Marshall's methods might work for some, but in the same way be ineffective or harmful for others.

Sorry about the spelling earlier abduction and induction!

bsbl247,
Would that have been Tony at 91mph? CASon's first showcase at bat was against him.

jmp,
I only got a bit involved because I was kind of confused about Bum's statment, which lead me to your post back in 2005.
I was wondering if your two oldest sons played beyond HS. You stated their arms are still in great shape, and I beleive you, but in actuality no one really cares about what shape you are in if you are not in the game anymore. All those things we talk about in preventing arm issues, is usually so that if the pitcher shows promise, he can pitch after HS with minimal issues.

I am not sure about me being blessed, but son has been blessed with what he was born with (that is a lot of what it's about right)that has enabled him to get to the point he is at (with minor stuff going wrong).

Despite what YB posts, have yet to see and wondering if we ever will a pitcher in pro ball with full marshall mechanics. If the exist, they all seem to be hidden out there for their protection and this I don't get, is this like aliens among us?

quote:

Originally posted by CADad:
bsbl247,
Would that have been Tony at 91mph? CASon's first showcase at bat was against him.

Yes. Tony was/is a good athlete, and may still have a chance to play professionally, unfortunately it doesn't appear it will be on the bump.

JMPBama92,

quote:

“Yardbird, stop being so closed minded”

I’m closed minded!!!? Remember I am the one bringing the Marshall information here, this could be considered the opposite of closed minded and your thinking that the continuance of the traditional information would be considered closed minded.

quote:

“Sure Mike Marshall has some quality ideas”

You would do better in naming one or two.

quote:

“he also is not the be all do all when it comes to pitching”

He is the leading expert in his field with actual scientific information that is free to the public and the question you posed about people charging and for actual injurious information was correctly answered, I find it interesting that the good information is free and the injurious information is charged for, that’s all.

quote:

“Some pitchers are power pitchers and some are finess pitchers.”

I prefer all pitchers to be finesse ones even if they have velocity

quote:

“Some pitchers have tight tendons and ligaments”

This is preferable and are the “Some pitchers throw over the top”.

quote:

“Some have lose tendons and ligaments”

This would be the non-preferable “three quarters” performers.

quote:

“Some pitchers physically develop earlier than others”

Biological maturity is important in developing a proper training timeline.
If you mean develop mechanically it does not matter.

quote:

“In closing, Mike Marshall's methods might work for some, but in the same way be ineffective or harmful for others”

I have been teaching these mechanics for over 12 years to hundreds of pitchers and have not run into one player who was not effective! These mechanics are non harmful to all who perform them because all human being are built basically the same! Well maybe not R.D i c ky who was born with out a UCL and has proven you do not need one to pitch in the MLB.

TPM,

quote:

Despite what YB posts, have yet to see and wondering if we ever will a pitcher in pro ball with full Marshall mechanics.

As I have explained in the past many times you can stop wondering because the Cardinal upper (MLB) level brain trust put a stop to there development personnel’s attempt to find out by eliminating Joe Williams before he had a chance to show the world that this is a superior mechanic. What a shame!

quote:

“If the exist, they all seem to be hidden out there for their protection”

There are none anymore, the last ones that Dr.Marshall trained are now at Incarnate Word university with a Marshall trained pitching coach, the only one who would give them the ball and they are not genetically gifted fast twitchers like Williams and Sparks are.
All my clients who learn the crowstep motion are told they will not be given the ball!

quote:

“this I don't get, is this like aliens among us?”

Have no paranoia! The top half mechanics are coming on strong in the MLB with many starting to train and perform them more and more each year but the full version where the bottom half is performed is dead for now effectively squashed by the baseball establishment mentality and will only be seen in a future ere when we are all gone.