Jeff Bagwell and Youth Baseball.....

http://hsbaseballweb.com/eve/f...16002781/m/898109634

Smoltz and Dr. Andrews agree..

Thanks Bull, I hadn't been here in a while and thought it was an interesting convo.... BTW, Bags did mention Dr. Andrews as well...

I think a lot of the problems arising with Tommy John have to do with coaches not monitoring their players (particularly their pitchers) Some parents have their kids signed up for three different teams at times. They may end up pitching for each team and although the pitch count is somewhat controlled in Little League it doesn't take into consideration one pitcher pitching for three different teams.
If parents educated themselves a bit more about throwing programs there wouldn't be half the issues about throwing too much.
Other issues arise when you play multiple positions as a pitcher. which in little league happens all of the time. I feel bad for pitchers who pitch in one game and warm up the very next game (same day double header) playing long toss with their team. Crazy!

Totally agre kids play too much baseball today. They have no off season and their parents control their sports participation. Then the geniuses think pitch counts and curve balls ruin arms.

Of course they do. But playing and pitching year round with no break, what do you expect.

I used to throw and pitch all weekend and probably threw the curve all wrong (which is why I was a position player) and my arm never went bad. It would get sore once in a while for maybe overdoing it on occasion but never blew it out. But then again we played all sports growing up and parents never regulated or dictated our sports playing.

However, I believe this whole debate is a huge waste of time because no matter how much we know too much parent involvement, specializing and too much baseball is bad for players, they're still gonna do the same thing anyway and not turn the clock back and learn from the past that kids should play sports on their own and not always in a controlled environment as they grow up.

Everybody wants to be a nanny.

Does Bagwell have 12-14 yo kids?

I would have loved to have had the opportunity to play as much baseball in my youth as kids do today.

When we didn't play or have practices, I had a rubber-coated baseball (try finding one of those these days) that I would throw against the side of our house (brick wall). I got to where I threw 200 at a stint, then to where I did multiple stints per day every day. At one time I prided myself on throwing 1,000 times per day over the summer. This was when I was a latchkey kid, home alone a bit, still too young to start getting jobs beyond cutting the neighbor's grass. It was just my way of passing time, better than sitting glued to the TV.

I never had a sore arm. Never.

I don't always agree with TRHit, but I do agree with his tag line, "Kids today do not throw enough." For all the folks worrying about playing too much baseball, I would worry more about couch potato syndrome.

I do worry about the focus being on games only, not enough practicing, not enough work on techniques and conditioning. And maybe most of all, not enough just playing as kids, whether it be at baseball or something else. Kids play video games for 8 hours/day over the summer and then go to play a game full out. Personally I'd rather see them playing 2-on-2 games with a tennis ball in the street, the way we used to for hours on end, getting 40 at bats per day.

Too many games? Could be, but I really don't think so. Too many kids not in shape but playing in those games anyway? Definitely.

The thing about baseball is, for the most part playing the game will not get you into shape. But to play it well, you have to work outside the games to be in shape. I don't recommend hard core conditioning for preteens or anything like that, but the reality is, the average youth player is simply not in as good shape physically as were the youth players of 30-40 years ago.

If you're worried about injuries, never ever buy your kid any video game system, bar him from the TV during daylight hours, and force him to spend his summer and weekend days outside whenever the sun is shining. It wasn't so long ago that was the norm. Today if you suggest such things, people look at you like you're crazy.

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If you're worried about injuries, never ever buy your kid any video game system, bar him from the TV during daylight hours, and force him to spend his summer and weekend days outside whenever the sun is shining. It wasn't so long ago that was the norm. Today if you suggest such things, people look at you like you're crazy.

I'll agree with this statement. Some of the other stuff above I would agree with as well, but I do believe youth play too many games. Too many structured games. Now I'm quite a bit younger than those who played 30-40 years ago but I was just like you. I played catch for 4-5 hours at a time. And this wasn't only throwing it against the wall (did plenty of that too) but playing long-toss for HOURS. Only had arm soreness once that really sticks out and that was after playing 4 games in a matter of 3 days.

Showcases, camps, clinics, and teams playing yearround are out of control. Showcases and camps being in November, December, January when players should be resting. Playing for a high school team from March-May, summer travel team from June to August, fall travel team from August to October or November. That's too much.

I have mixed emotions when it comes to this subject. On one hand there does seem to be more surgeries on young arms and that could be a result of too much play.

On the other hand, we all know that the states of California, Florida, Texas and Georgia are producing the most draft picks. These are also the states where they play the most baseball. We also know that a large majority of these drafted kids play baseball spring, summer and fall.

I ask... Would kids like Jason Heyward be just as good, or even better, had he not played as much baseball?

I've always been in favor of playing multiple sports if that is what kids want to do and they enjoy it. IMO 12 year old kids should experience other sports, especially when it comes to pitching, mainly because there's no reason for them to blow their arm at that age.

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I ask... Would kids like Jason Heyward be just as good, or even better, had he not played as much baseball?

The answer is Yes...Here's why

With top athletes, it don't matter. They're the ones who can pick up a ball for the first time, no matter what sport and right off the bat is better than anyone they go up against. Even without being a polished athlete they are still the cream of the crop.

Go to any high school and see who the best athletes are. It's most likely they're lettering and wining awards in multiple sports

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I ask... Would kids like Jason Heyward be just as good, or even better, had he not played as much baseball?


The answer is Yes...Here's why

With top athletes, it don't matter. They're the ones who can pick up a ball for the first time, no matter what sport and right off the bat is better than anyone they go up against. Even without being a polished athlete they are still the cream of the crop.

Go to any high school and see who the best athletes are. It's most likely they're lettering and wining awards in multiple sports

zombywoof,

I understand your point, but you can't pick up a ball for the first time and be good enough to play in the Major Leagues. And being the best athlete at a high school doesn't necessarily make someone the best baseball player at that high school. Being the best at your high school might not be good enough for the next level. IMO, it does matter!

I have to think that all that time Jason Heyward spent playing baseball was well worthwhile. The years spent in the East Cobb program surely didn't hurt him. He and his dad think it helped.

So you are right, he would have been good anyway... But, would he have been a first rounder and in the Major Leagues right now without the dedication he had as a young player?

I think the question is... Is playing spring, summer and fall a plus or a minus? When looking at many of the younger players in the Major Leagues, we see that most actually did play spring, summer and fall. After all, don't most of the best college and pro players do that too? Do high school players not need to put in as much time and effort?

I would agree that it is not necessary at a very young age, but there sure are a lot of Dominican players in the Big Leagues.

My son is one of those kids form CA who has played a lot of baseball. Yes, he has had some injuries, but so have other kids who have played multiple sports. It boils down to whether the young man wants to play or not. Parents should not push their kids to play. We always encouraged our son to have fun with his friends swimming, water skiing, playing pick up basketball, tennis, hunting. He also raised cattle in FFA. But he always went back to baseball. It's taught him so many things, kept him focused on his studies and away from trouble. He knows the game very very well, enjoys it, has learned to work through difficult mental situations (aka slumps) and is a determined, hard working guy because of it.
Playing year around is not for everybody, but for those who love it and learn to respect it, its great. No one size fits all.

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I would have loved to have had the opportunity to play as much baseball in my youth as kids do today.

I played far more than my son as a kid. I had 18 LL games and at least three pickup games a day. I'll bet I played 100 games a month in the summer. But we did it on our terms, not with parents te

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I would have loved to have had the opportunity to play as much baseball in my youth as kids do today.

I played far more than my son as a kid. I had 18 LL games and at least three pickup games a day. I'll bet I played 100 games a month in the summer. But we did it on our terms, not with parents telling us how to do it. I look at those hundred games a month in the summer as practice. I learned how to hit by trial and error. I learned to play hard when playing with the bigger kids or get picked on for not being as good. I used every batting stance of many major league baseball players. My stance ultimately because a hybrid of a few MLB'er stances.

I genuinely feel I made my LL team (remember having to make LL) because the coach who chose me once watched me outscrap all the other pickup players for three hours on a Sunday afternoon. At the time we weren't smart enough to know he was scouting attitude and scrap.

Remember how great it felt when an knew you gained acceptance with the bigger kids. Remember how it felt to be chosen over older kids whe choosing sides? It felt better than any coach's praise. It meant you were earning your keep with the big dogs.

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Would kids like Jason Heyward be just as good, or even better, had he not played as much baseball?

I believe he would be as good. His game may not have been as refined as early as it was. Reps lead to refinement of the game.

This is a good topic,and one I've thought about. I've been thinking about fall ball. Last year fall ball went until the first week of November because my son's team was in the playoffs. I felt like my son was a little late getting going this spring, and I wondered if it was because he didn't have much time off, so he didn't begin his pre-season work with much intensity. Honestly considering whether high school and summer ball will be enough, with strength training (which he loves) in the fall and winter. He is in his freshman year. I would be interested in thoughts from this group.

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Honestly considering whether high school and summer ball will be enough, with strength training (which he loves) in the fall and winter. He is in his freshman year.

Does he play other sports? If so he should keep playing them through his freshman year. Maybe into sophomore year. My son played three sports through frosh year. In the fall he played jv s0ccer and fall baseball. He played freshman basketball in the winter and jv baseball in the spring and travel in the summer. His soph year the basketball coach told him while he would be a starter on the JV team that year he didn't see him developing into a varsity player in the rotation given he would be playing two varsity sports that year and not giving extra time to basketball. It's a large school where the coach's would prefer athletes only play their sport. He was cut. With winter free to work out and gain weight rather than losing weight playing basketball his hitting blossomed that spring.

Since soph year baseball has a year round effort with playing in the fall, spring and summer with working out and hitting instruction in the winter. Freshman year I told my son at some point he would have to drop a sport for baseball training. A day after he got over the shock of being cut from basketball he told me the basketball made the decision for him.

I always thought he would quit s0ccer and commit to basketball and baseball. His passion for basketball is right behind baseball and miles ahead of s0ccer. My concern was having winter free to prep for baseball would be the best decision. The right decision was made for him by the basketball coach.

RJM,

I agree that he would have still had the "talent". If that is what's meant by him being as "good".

However, there are many who have the talent, yet will never get that good.

I guess the point is... Did playing all that baseball help him, because it is fairly obvious it didn't hurt him? He is just one of a very large number of successful players that took the same path. Guess there's no real way of knowing what would have happened had they not done it that way.

Not trying to argue here, but I just think there is more to this than simply saying kids are playing too much baseball these days. Maybe it could also be said that some kids aren't playing enough! Is there a perfect schedule for success?

I think you hit the nail on the head. It should be because the kid loves it and wants it, not because of what parents might want.

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I agree that he would have still had the "talent". If that is what's meant by him being as "good".

I believe guys like him would make it anyway. It just might take an extra year of refinement in the minors.

You could be right, that is something we will never know for sure.

Do you think all that baseball had anything to do with him being a first round pick?

RJM - My son played s****r through 8th grade, then decided he was done with it. He loves baseball, and has never played any other sports other than baseball and s****r.

I thought that the fact that he wasn't preparing and playing with intensity to begin with could be a sign of burn out. Or maybe it is just him being anormal 15 year old. He has now decided that he hasn't worked hard enough, and had designed his own supplemental workout schedule to improve some skills. He's ticked off at himself for not having worked harder earlier in the season.

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I guess the point is... Did playing all that baseball help him, because it is fairly obvious it didn't hurt him?

I think this is something that can't be answered yet. He's still too young to know. Overuse injuries build over time and it may not hit him for several years still. I mean let's look.. he's a month, two months into his first major league season and there's talk of him going on the DL? I have tried to see the injury and have read as much as I could find... He has suffered an overuse injury. Is that something due to the last several weeks or is it something that has built up over a long period of time?

We don't know the answer. And I'm not trying to find how this effected him or whatever.


I will never be a proponent of the single-sport athlete solely to be a single-sport athlete. Now if you flat-out cannot play another sport, then that's one thing. But to quit other sports to concentrate on one specific one I disagree with COMPLETELY until college.

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Originally posted by twotex:
RJM - My son played s****r through 8th grade, then decided he was done with it. He loves baseball, and has never played any other sports other than baseball and s****r.

I thought that the fact that he wasn't preparing and playing with intensity to begin with could be a sign of burn out. Or maybe it is just him being anormal 15 year old. He has now decided that he hasn't worked hard enough, and had designed his own supplemental workout schedule to improve some skills. He's ticked off at himself for not having worked harder earlier in the season.

Your son is only a freshman. He has plenty of time to catch up. Until fall heading into high school my son didn't play fall ball.

If God-given athleticism were enough to make it in baseball, then Michael Jordan would've made it to MLB.

Baseball is a game of precision skills combined with the ability to make split-second decisions in circumstances that never cease to present new and different scenarios. I honestly don't think you can become a premier player without extensive experience.

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I think this is something that can't be answered yet. He's still too young to know. Overuse injuries build over time and it may not hit him for several years still. I mean let's look.. he's a month, two months into his first major league season and there's talk of him going on the DL? I have tried to see the injury and have read as much as I could find... He has suffered an overuse injury. Is that something due to the last several weeks or is it something that has built up over a long period of time?

Unless he ends up blowing his arm, what overuse injury would he have prevented by playing football or other sports when he was younger? He does have a great arm, but that is not his meal ticket.

BTW, he has a groin injury and listed day to day. Please let's not use this as an example of overuse or playing too much baseball when he was younger.

Here is the latest report...

Heyward hopes to be back Tuesday: Atlanta OF Jason Heyward is expected to miss Monday's game against the Brewers in Milwaukee after not playing on Sunday, reports MLB.com. Heyward, however, is making progress towards returning to the field and hopes to be in the lineup again on Tuesday. He has been limited to pinch-hit duties since tweaking his groin. "It's getting stronger every day," Heyward said. "I have more strength and I don't get fatigued as quickly. Any soreness is from working out and working the muscle."
(Updated 05/09/2010).