Juco vs. 4 Year School - Boys and Men

Thats been my argument against the portal.  Lost opportunities for hs kids.  Going to be interesting…..

Francis and Dadof3:

WHEN i coached the SSU Baseball team we scheduled games with the local JC and the Cubs Scout teams. All games were competitive and focus on "who can play and the pretenders".

Can you imagine college baseball after the Korean War when the soldiers returned to their Academic career. The average age of the College player was 21 to 25. This was "tough" competition for a 17 year old.

Bob

@Dadof3 posted:

Thats been my argument against the portal.  Lost opportunities for hs kids.  Going to be interesting…..

Seems like an argument for the portal.

HSer starts at a Juco, D3, D2, mid-tier D1, proves himself, then gets picked up by a top tier D1. No time lost.

Work your way up, just like in the real world.

@Francis7 posted:

I was recently talking to someone who is very familiar with one of the Top 20 D2 schools in the entire country as well as one of the Top 20 Juco programs in the country. And, I asked him: Which is the more talented team? If they played each other right now, who wins?

Without hesitation, he said:  Let's be fair, the Juco has 19 and 20 year olds and the D2 has players who are 21, 22 and some of them are 23. The Juco has some of the best young talent you can find in their area. They might not lose 5 games this year. But, the D2 has men on their roster.

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To me, this says it all about HS kids going into "big" four year baseball programs.  Unless you are an uber-talented 19 year old, the odds of you playing a lot at a 4-year winning baseball program at the D1 or D2 level, as a freshman, are not good.

You're better off going Juco, D3, or a lower tier D1 or D2, if you want to play as a freshman, or, have a chance to play - again, if you are not one of the Top 10%.

Agree or disagree?

This has all come about in the past few years. It wasn’t this way when my son was playing college ball ten years ago.

Last night I was watching the UCLA-USC basketball game. UCLA is very young and talented. But they’re so young it’s not meshing. They’re 9-11 after graduating a very senior laden team Sweet Sixteen team.

One announcer commented UCLA only has one commit for 2025. The other announcer commented they’re obviously going to go portal after this season for strength and experience.

This is what teams in all sports are doing now. When my son returned soph year ten years ago there were only two JuCo adds and no transfers.

@Francis7, I have been saying this since I joined HSBBW in 2017. Your post could have been created using parts of my previous posts. In fact I think you are guilty of plagiarism and you should resign from your prestigious position at Harvard!

Agree but in theory there are 22, 23, 24 year old men in losing programs too. The older kids at the ranked D2 are just better at baseball.

@SpeedDemon posted:

Seems like an argument for the portal.

HSer starts at a Juco, D3, D2, mid-tier D1, proves himself, then gets picked up by a top tier D1. No time lost.

Work your way up, just like in the real world.

For the most part, I worked my way up with one company……

@Dadof3 posted:

For the most part, I worked my way up with one company……

Sure. That’s great.

The majority of people don’t.

IMO, it really depends on where the JuCo's talent is - Great pitching is always going to shutdown average hitting. While my son was at Hill College (juco) they always played a series with St. Edwards (D2). St Ed's used it as an opportunity to let the younger players get reps and the games were competitive. If Hill was throwing an exceptional pitcher, then some of the upperclassmen would take some hacks.

Looking at the incoming freshman at Hill as a newbie parent (2015), it seemed like most were in the top 2 or three players from their HS (not every small HS has D1 commits), or international players. Some like my son, were not ready academically for a 4 year school, some like my son were late bloomers and blossomed during their 2 years in juco. It's the rare high profile juco that gets a ton of D1 drop downs, or kids working to improve their draft stock - even then not everyone on their roster is heading to a D1.

@SpeedDemon posted:

Sure. That’s great.

The majority of people don’t.

@Dadof3 posted:

For the most part, I worked my way up with one company……

From age 19 to 56 I'd worked for 3 companies (there was an acquisition in there), and I still look as resumes for job stability - old habits die hard. However, it's a new world and my software developer kid says if you don't change jobs at least every 3 years you're leaving money on the table. Based on his experience, it seems he's correct.  

@JucoDad posted:

IMO, it really depends on where the JuCo's talent is - Great pitching is always going to shutdown average hitting. While my son was at Hill College (juco) they always played a series with St. Edwards (D2). St Ed's used it as an opportunity to let the younger players get reps and the games were competitive. If Hill was throwing an exceptional pitcher, then some of the upperclassmen would take some hacks.

Looking at the incoming freshman at Hill as a newbie parent (2015), it seemed like most were in the top 2 or three players from their HS (not every small HS has D1 commits), or international players. Some like my son, were not ready academically for a 4 year school, some like my son were late bloomers and blossomed during their 2 years in juco. It's the rare high profile juco that gets a ton of D1 drop downs, or kids working to improve their draft stock - even then not everyone on their roster is heading to a D1.

I really like that there are people on HSBBW that understand the JuCo experience. That includes both sides of the coin - good and bad.
  IMO a couple of things hold true about JuCo. It’s the most misunderstood level of college baseball.  Common misperceptions are that academics are subpar, all athletes have issues with their grades, and the level of play is perceived to be barely above HS. The second thing that holds true IMO (especially in baseball hotbed states) is that JuCo is the best route for 90% of players NOT attending a D3.
  Nothing could be farther from the truth in both cases. Academics are not equal across the board by any means but plenty are more than good enough. The level of play can be unbelievably good and there is a reasonable expectation to play (at least some) and develop as a freshman. Players don’t develop sitting on the bench, or wearing a redshirt at D1 & D2 programs. In my experience the benefits of JuCo far outweigh the negatives in most cases.

@JucoDad posted:

From age 19 to 56 I'd worked for 3 companies (there was an acquisition in there), and I still look as resumes for job stability - old habits die hard. However, it's a new world and my software developer kid says if you don't change jobs at least every 3 years you're leaving money on the table. Based on his experience, it seems he's correct.  

It's true. The concept of annual "merit" increases is a dinosaur. Some companies have even done away with them completely and say "if you deserve a raise, you will get it...but you are not guaranteed a raise every year." And, those companies that still have merit increases typically only give 3 to 5% per year. If you really want to get a significant increase in your annual pay, you need to go work somewhere else or use that other offer to get a pay increase where you are now.  The days of working for one company for 20 to 30 years is a concept that died 40 years ago.

25 years ago, I worked at a bank that ditched its traditional pension plan and converted into a 401K because a pension plan would not attract new talent because no one saw value in a plan that wasn't going to see them getting any money when they quit in 3 to 5 years. Most times they wouldn't even be vested when they quit. 401K was more attractive since you can take it with you and roll it over at your next job.

Some people still do never leave their employer. There's some value there in familiarity and time off accruals and things like that...but, if you really want to increase your pay, you have to be willing to switch companies at some point.

@adbono posted:

I really like that there are people on HSBBW that understand the JuCo experience. That includes both sides of the coin - good and bad.
  IMO a couple of things hold true about JuCo. It’s the most misunderstood level of college baseball.  Common misperceptions are that academics are subpar, all athletes have issues with their grades, and the level of play is perceived to be barely above HS. The second thing that holds true IMO (especially in baseball hotbed states) is that JuCo is the best route for 90% of players NOT attending a D3.
  Nothing could be farther from the truth in both cases. Academics are not equal across the board by any means but plenty are more than good enough. The level of play can be unbelievably good and there is a reasonable expectation to play (at least some) and develop as a freshman. Players don’t develop sitting on the bench, or wearing a redshirt at D1 & D2 programs. In my experience the benefits of JuCo far outweigh the negatives in most cases.

Do jucos recruit?  Do they give scholarships?  (Academic and athletic).

@Dadof3 posted:

Do jucos recruit?  Do they give scholarships?  (Academic and athletic).

I believe that D1 and D2 Juco's do give money. As far as recruiting, yes. I have also heard that some Juco coaches are so well networked that they will get calls from 4 year coaches on kids who will be cut and need a home who can help them.

@JucoDad posted:

From age 19 to 56 I'd worked for 3 companies (there was an acquisition in there), and I still look as resumes for job stability - old habits die hard. However, it's a new world and my software developer kid says if you don't change jobs at least every 3 years you're leaving money on the table. Based on his experience, it seems he's correct.  

Your son is very much correct. Three years is an eternity with employees today. I see lots of people struggling to land jobs because they’ve chased higher pay for 3 years and companies now have leverage and are looking for stability. Then you have the people who were remote and working multiple jobs at the same time.

@Dadof3 posted:

Do jucos recruit?  Do they give scholarships?  (Academic and athletic).

JuCos recruit and they do give scholarships - both academic and athletic. D1 JuCos can offer full scholarships. However there is no uniformity in how they are funded. If they are fully funded (many are not) they may have as many as 24 full scholarships to offer in baseball. D2 programs can only offer books, tuition & fees - they can’t offer room and board. However many do allow stacking of athletic and academic scholarships. D3 JuCos are prohibited from offering any athletic scholarships but can offer academic scholarships. JuCos recruit the same way that 4 year schools do, except that there isn’t much of a budget for it. They use on campus camps to recruit and they usually cost less than $150 to attend. Private tryouts are also allowed and JuCo coaches are happy to accommodate players that want to come to them for a workout. In my experience JuCo baseball coaches are the most approachable and the most willing to talk with people outside of their own little bubble. The bonds that are formed between JuCo players last a lifetime. I know that’s true about 4 year schools but with JuCo players that bond crosses over school boundaries. The JuCo route is like no other. The JuCo where I coach now (as a volunteer) just opened our season in South Texas in a 3 game series vs the JuCo I played at 50 years ago. It was surreal for me and made me feel incredibly old. I hadn’t seen the coastal sunset in quite a while.

My son had a teammate in 13u whose father was a SEC/Big 12 baseball umpire.  He said, "Juco players are broken- either academically, physically, or behavior problems,  I didn't know much about baseball let alone playing college baseball at the time, so it made an impression on me that has taken 5 years to wear off.  My 2024 just committed to a good D1 juco and he's not broken.  He wants a chance to play as a freshman and develop. 

And a huge shout out to adbono for your wisdom, advice, and help you gave my son and me.   

@Tres Elakes 24 posted:

My son had a teammate in 13u whose father was a SEC/Big 12 baseball umpire.  He said, "Juco players are broken- either academically, physically, or behavior problems,  I didn't know much about baseball let alone playing college baseball at the time, so it made an impression on me that has taken 5 years to wear off.  My 2024 just committed to a good D1 juco and he's not broken.  He wants a chance to play as a freshman and develop.

And a huge shout out to adbono for your wisdom, advice, and help you gave my son and me.   

You’re welcome sir!