Keep your own pitch counts!!

The variation in pitch counts arises when the "pitch-keeper" does not include foul balls after two strikes---many just add up the balls and strikes for each batter---example--a 3-2 count can include 10 pitches when all is said and son---there is only one pitch counter on our team---ME---I am in the stands --I allow our coaches to do their thing and not worry about pitch counts---they check with me--actually if the count is high the good coaches will know without asking---in fact my guys will ask for example " what is he at, 85/90 pitches?"

There is another way that pitch counts are under-counted. I'm not making this up!

The scorekeeper simply forgets to include the last pitch of each at-bat. So if a player has a 2-2 count and strikes out, the book shows 2 strikes, 2 balls, and a "K". Some scorekeepers fail to count the 5th pitch of the at-bat. Add in the foul balls that aren't counted, and 30 pitches can be missed easily.

The several SKs I've encountered who have counted this way have all been utterly unable to see any problem with their approach.

Have a pitch counter separate from the SK who already has enough to to. Buy a tally counter at an office supply store. Have your person check with the other team's counter each half inning. If there is a discrepancy, check with the official book score keeper. Then sit together.

Daque


First of all pitch counts are not official stats and , in fact, some teams do not even keep them---there is no way I check with the other teams scorekeeper, if they even have one--many teams leave it up the tournament people as their book is the official book and they have no obligation to keep my teams pitch count

quote:

Originally posted by TRhit:
Daque


First of all pitch counts are not official stats and , in fact, some teams do not even keep them---there is no way I check with the other teams scorekeeper, if they even have one--many teams leave it up the tournament people as their book is the official book and they have no obligation to keep my teams pitch count

Some youth programs have pitch count rules. It's important to reconcile the count between teams at the end of each inning. You don't want to lose because the opposing team's stud was allowed to exceed the count.

RJM

That does not happen at the lever we play at

quote:

The several SKs I've encountered who have counted this way have all been utterly unable to see any problem with their approach.

Yikes! Their son must not be a pitcher

The OP was pointing out the discrepancy in pitch counts, albeit gratuitous. I was pointing out a methodology to minimize the problem. Not all tournaments have pitching restrictions and so the count is merely for the benefit of the team keeping it.

If the other team has the official book and if pitch counts are used, then it behooves you to keep your own count and verify that with the official SK. I presented a method to do that. Fin.

The point is that as a parent, you need to keep track of what your son is doing on the mound. I wasn't sure if the SK just made mistakes or the coach was lying to the parents to get a win. It looked like the coach was trying for a win because it was his horse and he didn't have anybody else who could get the job done. I don't know if the parents cared either way. They were quite proud of their sons achievement that day. He pitched a great game. We watched the next game and the next three pitchers the coach put out there couldn't get an out and they were run ruled. Either way, a parent needs to know the truth.

Be cautious with your kids arm.

My son was in a league (overseas Youth Services on a military base) with a pitch count restriction for HS ball (16 - 18 year olds). Trust me, the other team kept his pitch count and insisted he come out when it was reached. He was allowed to finish an at bat if it went over. Our team's pitch counter and theirs had to reconcile after each inning so there were no controversies. Sometimes an inexperienced counter had to be educated that you DO count foul balls but do NOT count warm-ups . This is why you need to talk about it early on and have the umpire intervene if anyone has it wrong. Pitch counter sat with Score keeper.

The limit for that league was 105. They played double headers on Saturdays only.

Now that I am more familiar with reasonable pitch counts - that I learned here on this site - I think that league has it wrong. We have moved, and in our new area, it is rare to see a HS pitcher exceed 90-100. Maybe if he is close to a complete game or a shut out and still performing well with no indication of pain... but usually they come out much earlier than that. Our coaches know how to take care of arms.

I kept the score book for a long time with junior high and high school baseball. Very seldom did I even keep track of balls and strikes; much less each individual pitch.

I still want to know why warm up "tosses," bullpen before the game, long toss before the game, pick offs, and making defensive plays (ground balls, etc) aren't counted in the pitch count. It's the same motion.

quote:

Originally posted by TRhit:
RJM

That does not happen at the lever we play at

I know. I also know these rules were put in place long after you left these age groups. That's why I was tying the logic of the two converstions together.

No problem

quote:

I still want to know why warm up "tosses," bullpen before the game, long toss before the game, pick offs, and making defensive plays (ground balls, etc) aren't counted in the pitch count. It's the same motion.

The intensity is different. A defensive play may well be the same intensity but the motion is different. It is not the throws that are being limited but rather pitches. A pitch = motion plus intensity.

quote:

The intensity is different. A defensive play may well be the same intensity but the motion is different. It is not the throws that are being limited but rather pitches. A pitch = motion plus intensity.

So the first time a pitcher turns it on and really lets loose is as soon as the game starts? Not before? And once he's in the game, it's all out every single pitch?

Right.

quote:

I still want to know why warm up "tosses," bullpen before the game, long toss before the game, pick offs, and making defensive plays (ground balls, etc) aren't counted in the pitch count. It's the same motion.

Much of the pitch count guidelines come from ASMI. When they developed the pitch count guidelines, they took into consideration the pre-game and warm-ups. So, if you were to count them as part of your pitch count, you would actually be doubling them up in terms of the documented recommended pitch counts.

I agree as well that between inning warm-ups and much of the pre-game warm-ups are not the same intensity as in-game pitches. I know my son only throws about 60-75% when warming up between innings. Just enough to get loose again.

quote:

So the first time a pitcher turns it on and really lets loose is as soon as the game starts? Not before? And once he's in the game, it's all out every single pitch?

The first time he pitches to a batter the count is on. Fastball, change, curve all count the same. Foul balls and wild pitches count. Any ball delivered to the batter from the rubber counts.

Pitchers find their cruise velocity and intensity for every pitch and that is below all out and warm up. It may vary some and occasionally they reach back for a little more.

I cannot tell if you are being argumentative, asking a legitimate question, or are trying to make a point. Makes no difference really.

I keep track of pitch counts. In fact, I chart every pitch. I call the pitches and chart them where I call them. I keep track of location and pitch type called then the result of the pitch.

Dain: You are a busy beaver! Do you sit on a bucket outside of the dugout too? At what age, if ever, do you feel it is permissable for the battery to call their own game? For me it is at age 10.

quote:

still want to know why warm up "tosses," bullpen before the game, long toss before the game, pick offs, and making defensive plays (ground balls, etc) aren't counted in the pitch count. It's the same motion.

i could never understand it either. as far as the intencity thing, catchers need tj and labrum surgery too. they aren't throwing with 100% intencity. throwing's throwing. but thats just my opinion. it's all good .........till it isn't.

quote:

Originally posted by Bulldog 19:
I kept the score book for a long time with junior high and high school baseball. Very seldom did I even keep track of balls and strikes; much less each individual pitch.

Wow. I must really be going overboard. I expect my scorebook to have balls and strikes. How else would I be able to keep track of how my pitchers did? Or who had a really good plate appearance even though it ended up a reached on error?

Yes, I can tell who is on or off, or who is getting ahead (pitchers), or who had a good appearance (batters). But when I look at the book a week or two later it is helpful to figure out what had happened.

bballdad, at the high school level, we also kept a pitching chart that kept track of each and every pitch and what happened, etc.

School I'm working with now for this semester they keep the pitches in the scorebook, on a PDA, and the head coach carries a counter with him. I personally think this may be a little overboard, but this same school also keeps all of their basketball stats on PDA as well.

The pitch counts that are generally accepted were developed by ASMI (American Sports Medicine Institute) after considerable ressearch and experimentation. The numbers that they offered for use took into consideration items such as mentioned as a concern here. To include them as a part of the number to be used would be doubling up.

In this particular area of discussion board we are supposed to be addressing issues of the pre HS set.

Keeping a very detailed pitching chart for this age group is contradictory since what is called ends up being something and somewhere else. Kids have not mastered the command and control necessary to make a chart accurate. As they say, "GIGO." Garbage in, garbage out.

I always count pitches and any parent who cares about their kid should too. I've talked with coaches who I know and respect and ask, "What the &*$% are you thinking letting that kid go 122" and get "He only threw 89". When you look at the score book, there are pitches missing, math errors, scribble marks, etc.

One thing we did keep one year that was very illustrative was to note if our pitcher threw a first pitch strike or ball, then note the result of the AB. The difference in outcome is AMAZING... Try it...

While I agree that people should keep up with pitch counts, I don't believe pitch counts are the 'end-all, be-all' for protecting arms.

Now don't get me wrong...having a young kid throw too many pitches is wrong...but JUST using pitch counts can be misleading, and in my opinion..harmful.

Every kid is different. Size, strength, development, and mechanics. Some mature earlier....

I watch all my players. I look for mechanics breaking down, getting tired etc....and normally this occurs well before their pitch count climbs very high at all.

The other thing I haven't seen mentioned is keeping track of how much kids throw when playing on multiple programs.

ctandc - good points

When I coached club ball, I had pitchers who fell apart mechanically at 40-50. If you didn't get them out, they'd run the risk of hurting themselves.

There are others who still appear strong at 100, those are the kids you have to watch with the pitch count as they don't show the normal wear in an individual appearance, however you can hurt them over the long haul by letting them throw too much.

If they don't have good mechanics or look tired, go get them. If they have a high pitch count, which will differ by kid, go get them.

Daque:

At first we let the catchers call the game. I know that the high school coaches call the pitches. I know that even in pro ball the coaches call pitches too.

I am not sure what you mean when you say at first you let the catchers call the game. Later you don't? Pitcher is just a machine to chuck the ball?

If you want your pitchers and catchers to learn the game they must be allowed to make mistakes and learn from them with your assistance.

HS coaches call the game because the players have never learned how or because the coach wants to retain power in all matters.

Pro players know the game that you are introducing to your munchkins. Pro players are on the down side of the learning curve. Same for college ball.

My point is that it is in the best interest of the players to learn to call their own game. A team effort, not just the catcher. They have the best view of the batter, where he stands, late or early swinger, afraid of the ball, etc. etc.

First of all, pro catchers call pitches (95% of the time). The coach will many times control the running game. That's what most people are seeing when they are signaling to the catcher. Secondly, college coaches call 95% of the time because they are usually control freaks. The tough part is that they don't give the ability for the pitcher to shake unless the pitcher is a proven winner. I would say the numbers are about the same in high school and summer baseball.

Here's my take- We let catchers work with our pitching coaches and they share duties in calling pitches. There's a constant dialog on why they are calling what they call. We also give pitchers the ability to shake 95% of the time. I would rather have a guy throw the wrong pitch with 100% confidence than the right pitch with 50% confidence. The other part about that is, if the pitch gets hit, he's going to talk to the pitching coach and explain his thought process and the coach is going to tell him why he should have had confidence in the other pitch.

Finally, college coaches are not in a learning environment. They are in a "must win or I'm fired" environment. It's not their job to develop the catcher. It's their job to win- period!

nc: Mea culpa. I let myself get dragged off topic. The topic got side tracked. Not only into who calls pithes but the age group. This should have been about the pre HS age group.

While off topic, in the pre HS group I allow the battery to call the game and we discuss mistakes when they come back into the dugout.

There is little, if any, difference in the motivation to call pitches by coaches with HS and above. They figure, and rightly so, if they don't produce wins they are screwed. The question then becomes whether they trust the pitcher/catcher more than themself. An easy decision.

But below HS the kids should be learning the nuances of the reasoning betweeen what pitches to call when. They may never get to use it again but then you never know. Better to have a skill that you cannot use than to need a skill you never acquired.

quote:

But below HS the kids should be learning the nuances of the reasoning betweeen what pitches to call when. They may never get to use it again but then you never know. Better to have a skill that you cannot use than to need a skill you never acquired.

My son used to catch. Even though he plays infield now, he credits what he saw from behind the plate for a lot of his understanding of the game as a high school player.

quote:

...his understanding of the game....

There is no doubt that catching give you the best view. Th catcher is the only player looking forward at all of the defense. And being allowed to participate in the decision making process enhances the understanding even more.

Just wanted to bump this topic. Had another tournament this weekend and it happened again. Kid pitched the first game against us and due to seedings we faced them again the next game 30 minutes later. Bottom of seventh and we had the tie run on second with our number 3 guy up. Coach makes a pitching change and it was the complete game starter from game one. Our parents and coaches were amazed. Some of our parents said if you want to win that bad, take the game, you win. Don't put him back out there.

The kids parents said he only threw 53 pitches the first game so why not.

He had thrown 83 by our book. Coach told them it was only 53 pitches in a six inning game when he allowed 4 runs.


My sons first HS summer game last week the coaches said he only threw 53 pitches over 5 innings. He had bases loaded once on 3 walks, allowed one run and had 6 strikeouts to go with 4 walks.

I had 74 pitches.

Keep track.

10 year old tourney this past weekend.I am the pitch count guy almost all the time.I watched a kid pitch 70 pitches in 1 game.Had 3 games that day,he came back and pitched in another game the same day.I walked in the dugout and let them know with no uncertain terms that he had thrown over 100 pitches for the day and he is done.

I was livid they even considered bringing him back,much less actually putting him in the game to pitch.This wasn't even my son,good thing too.sad part is his dad helps coach.

quote:

Originally posted by Baseball God:
pitch counts are bull****. Nolan Ryan and Tommy John both think they are ****. Nolan Ryan tossed 7 no no's, I belive him more than some lame neverwas.

As far as I know neither of them are doctors.Pitch counts for grown men may be nonsense but for a YOUNG child (or even a teen ager) still developing and growing,it is not nonsense imo.Might as well err on the side of caution when dealing with a childs health.

BaseballGod:

Pitch counts are not the be all and end all of protecting youth arms. The science is young. For now it is all that is available to protect children from injury to their arms from over use. The numbers for counting are the best guesses from people such as the scientists as ASMI. Time will call for adjustmnts.

Neither of the professional pitchers you refer to have as much knowledge about children with open growth centers as those who have studied the issue and for them to make flippant remarks is out of line.

Since professional rookies aare subjected to pitch counts somebody at these two pros level are not inagreement with their opinions.

I do not know what expereiences you base your opinions on but am more than willing to discuss your alternatives. I am always willing to learn at God's feet.

Maybe Tommy John would not have needed the surgery named after him had he pitched with guidance a little more and with heart a little less.

Does the chance of injury (elbow or shoulder) from pitching also depend on how hard a prepuberty pitcher throws? Some kids can throw much harder than others at the same age, but are still growing.
Should a pitcher be told NOT to pitch as hard as he can?

This is my opinion and should be regarded as such.

There was a time in the 1980's when a technique for pitching extra hard was being pushed for this age group. The elbows were not impacted but kids were going down with shoulder injuries. The technique was then dropped.

So my answer to your question would be, yes, over throwing can be injurious. Remember that the growth centers on youngsters are still open and subject to stress.

Having said that, we must remember that different kids have different abilities. The velocity attained by one pitcher with average effort cannot be attained by another of the same age using full effort. But all and all, your suggested advice is sound.

My son plays High School ball now and youth ball can be good or bad for young pitchers. Remember he is your son first and a player second. The sporting goods stores sell pitch counters, count yourself, count every pitch, but first talk to a professional youth pitching coach/teacher at an academy about limits for a game, a day, a weekend, and a week. Your son's mechanics/form can be as much a health threat as the raw count. Go RISE.