Kid dies at practice, coach charged in death

Heat index of just 94 degree? That's a cool fall day here in Dallas when football season gets started. If that standard was held, we couldn't play football in Texas. It would be interesting to hear the whole story. There has to be more to it than was reported.

I agree with Tx-Husker on this one. 94 is not that much out of the ordinary. What I wonder is:
1. Was there a Certified Athletic Trainer Present
2. If not...was the coach denying the team water breaks.

There must be much more that will come out in the trial.

This happens every year both in HS and college---many kids have heart conditions that do not show up in HS medical exams not to mention with their own personal doctor

I have said it before and i will say it agin. All athletes should have an echo cardiogram of their heart. You have to ask for it. And it is covered by your insurance. Some countires require it before any athlete can compete. It will show and enlarged heart, and that is what athletes die from.
I encourage all parents have one done for your kids. IMO it should be part of routine physicals and we might not see these yong people dying.
Now his heart might not be what cuases his death but either way get the test done.

Having one should be mandatory! No exception!

The Article I read said the coach was "alleged" to have denied the players water....if that is true then he is trouble

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Originally posted by dad43:
The Article I read said the coach was "alleged" to have denied the players water....if that is true then he is trouble

It was stated on the news clip I saw. Also the kid was on some medication that causes dehydration and the coaching staff knew. It was disclosed on his participation approval card (whatever they call the cards parents sign).

I wonder if the kid was on accutane. That'll dehydrate you in a heartbeat.

I have read it's also been alleged that the coach refused to allow a nurse who was at a s****r game nearby to provide care...

It truly is a sad situation and I will be interested to see what happens from here..

JT, from what I have read on the NATA message boards, there was not a certified athletic trainer onsite.

What people do not realize is these "heat conditions" don't only occur in extreme heat. I'm sure JT is fully aware of this. During pre-season this year at the college level, we had one kid go to the hospital because he would not stop cramping. This was on a day when it was about 80-85 degrees outside.

I will be interested to see when it will be required that all high schools have a certified athletic trainer on staff and present for all events. I believe North Carolina is in the preliminary stages of trying to mandate all schools with football, s****r, wrestling, etc to have a certified athletic trainer. I think it's a great idea! Unfortunately, schools may be forced to drop those sports instead due to expenses and that's too bad.

This year has been a bad year for high school athletes and athletic-related deaths...

if it was SOOO hot and such a bad idea for kids to be out practicing in texas where its always that hot, why didnt parents speak up, keep their kid home, why didnt ANY other coaches, high school football teams even have multiple coaches. is one person really going to be the scapegoat?

I read the grand jury testimony given by the school's AD. (It is poorly formatted, so I may not have every detail correct.) There was a girls s****r game at an adjacent field. The 94 heat index was measured at the field, as required by the KHSAA. The rule is that water must be freely available at all times, and if the heat index is 95 or above, the players must break for 10 minutes every 30 minutes. The coach was in his first year as a head coach.

Multiple people (mostly spectators at the s****r game) have stated that that the players were asking for water but the head coach would not allow it. Then the team began running gassers, and were supposed to keep running them until somebody quit the team. After 45 minutes, one player did quit the team-- he says he quit so the gassers would stop. The player who died was the second one to collapse. Fortunately the first one seems to have recovered.

I infer that there was no medically qualified personnel at either field, and it appears that treatment appropriate for heat stroke wasn't immediately applied. I think that the head coach was uninvolved in the treatment of the player.

Son’s head football coach has a program during the very hot and humid football practices in South Louisiana. The heat index reaches 100 for many days straight in August and September. Kids were separated into groups and coach blows a whistle every 10 minutes (I believe) and each group rotates for water breaks and 3 minutes in the shade with misting fans. If you wanted water in between you can have it, no problem. He also stressed nutrition and drinking a gallon of water every day starting in the morning. Every player was required to bring a healthy snack to eat before practice (banana, peanut butter sandwich). Gone are the days of “come on SISSY, you can do it”. The lives and health of the players come first. He also stresses that if the player felt anything out of the ordinary he was required to tell a coach. Also, official water break time outs are taken at games by the head referee, games played in August and September at night still reach 95. Son is done with football, did I worry, of course, but this program did put my mind at ease a little.

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Then the team began running gassers, and were supposed to keep running them until somebody quit the team. After 45 minutes, one player did quit the team-- he says he quit so the gassers would stop. The player who died was the second one to collapse. Fortunately the first one seems to have recovered.

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if it was SOOO hot and such a bad idea for kids to be out practicing in texas where its always that hot, why didnt parents speak up, keep their kid home, why didnt ANY other coaches, high school football teams even have multiple coaches.

I think this article was from an incident in Kentucky, but it does happen here in Texas all too often.

Typically this is football, but in the past year or so, there was a similar college baseball occurrence. I would be willing to bet that the baseball occurrence involved a coach coming out of a football background.

I don't know the complete facts from these two situations, but I do know from my experience, that these fact patterns are very common.

This is one of the primary reasons why my sons did not play high school football.

Football is a social disease here in Texas, and, I suspect in other states as well.

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is one person really going to be the scapegoat?

I think it has to start at the top with the AD's and the head coaches.

Unfortunately, until these instances are tried and proven to be the negligence that they are,
the social disease will continue to exist.

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Gone are the days of “come on SISSY, you can do it”.

I think there are changes in the wind, but I don't think the disease had been eradicated.

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I will be interested to see when it will be required that all high schools have a certified athletic trainer on staff and present for all events.

I don't know if it's law in PA. But the middle school and high school both have trainers in golf carts so they can quickly get from field to field. In the spring the high school could have two baseball games, two softball games and two lacrosse games all occuring at the same time. The middle school could have four events occuring at the same time.

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Gone are the days of “come on SISSY, you can do it”.

I'm not sure. I know plenty of youth football coaches of 8-10 year olds who think they are building men out of boys.

I played high school football. I didn't let my son play until middle school. I couldn't coach football as an adult. The reason is a lot of football is about inflicting pain and intimidating the opposition. It's not something I wanted to coach to little kids.

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The reason is a lot of football is about inflicting pain and intimidating the opposition.

I'm going to disagree with this statement wholeheartedly. Football is about strategy, speed, strength and execution. If someone is teaching pain and intimidation then they are doing it wrong. Football teaches you to push beyond your physical and mental boundaries.

Injuries happen in football but if you are trying to cause them then you are doing it wrong as well. Plus injuries happen in every sport. I got hurt way more in baseball than I did in football.

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Originally posted by coach2709:

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The reason is a lot of football is about inflicting pain and intimidating the opposition.

I'm going to disagree with this statement wholeheartedly. Football is about strategy, speed, strength and execution. If someone is teaching pain and intimidation then they are doing it wrong. Football teaches you to push beyond your physical and mental boundaries.

Injuries happen in football but if you are trying to cause them then you are doing it wrong as well. Plus injuries happen in every sport. I got hurt way more in baseball than I did in football.

Yes the skills come first. But when a player can hit the opposition so hard his eyes roll, it inflicts pain and becomes intimidating. My high school coach talked a lot about intimidation. Bull in the ring isn't for the faint hearted. We got helmet stickers for big hits in games. A lot of players get intimidated when they get hit like a freight train. In my three years we lost four games and won a state championship.

"Gone are the days of “come on SISSY, you can do it”.

I was speaking only of son's high school. I have seen an area high school have kids run bleachers while carryinig another player on their back in 90 degree weather. This same school has kids push a pick up truck around the track. There is such a thing as over doing. The kid's bodies can't recover and muscles weaken. Giving kids appropriate water breaks; teaching them about good nutrition and getting enough rest is the way to go. Most of our football players played both ways in football against teams that only have one way players and believe me our team walked off in better shape than they did.

If the coach didn't allow for water breaks, especially on a hot day, he should be in hot water with the law and has to be permanently removed from ever coaching again.

However, all kids going out for sports should be getting tested for heart conditions. It may not prevent every death related to a heart condition if it isn't present at the physical but it may detect potential conditions on athletes that might not know they have a heart condition.

If coaches aren't doing the right things by the players they coach, they have no business coaching.

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Originally posted by RJM:

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Originally posted by coach2709:

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The reason is a lot of football is about inflicting pain and intimidating the opposition.

I'm going to disagree with this statement wholeheartedly. Football is about strategy, speed, strength and execution. If someone is teaching pain and intimidation then they are doing it wrong. Football teaches you to push beyond your physical and mental boundaries.

Injuries happen in football but if you are trying to cause them then you are doing it wrong as well. Plus injuries happen in every sport. I got hurt way more in baseball than I did in football.

Yes the skills come first. But when a player can hit the opposition so hard his eyes roll, it inflicts pain and becomes intimidating. My high school coach talked a lot about intimidation. Bull in the ring isn't for the faint hearted. We got helmet stickers for big hits in games. A lot of players get intimidated when they get hit like a freight train. In my three years we lost four games and won a state championship.

And a pitcher throwing 90+ can hit a batter by accident or on purpose and there will be pain and intimidation. There are basketball players who are 6'5" playing against 6' players who get elbowed out of the way and dunked on and that leads to pain and intimidation.

There is pain in every sport and to a certain degree intimidation. If a kid gets intimidated because he got hit like a freight train he has two choices - get stronger or quit. If a kid is intimidated because he got hit by a 90+ fastball he has two choices - get back in the box or quit. If a kid is intimidated because he got moved out of the way and dunked on he has two choices - get stronger so he can play better defense or quit.

Did you win all those games and championship because you hurt the other team or because you were just better? Sometimes being better is intimidation enough.

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Originally posted by coach2709:

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Originally posted by RJM:

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Originally posted by coach2709:

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The reason is a lot of football is about inflicting pain and intimidating the opposition.

I'm going to disagree with this statement wholeheartedly. Football is about strategy, speed, strength and execution. If someone is teaching pain and intimidation then they are doing it wrong. Football teaches you to push beyond your physical and mental boundaries.

Injuries happen in football but if you are trying to cause them then you are doing it wrong as well. Plus injuries happen in every sport. I got hurt way more in baseball than I did in football.

Yes the skills come first. But when a player can hit the opposition so hard his eyes roll, it inflicts pain and becomes intimidating. My high school coach talked a lot about intimidation. Bull in the ring isn't for the faint hearted. We got helmet stickers for big hits in games. A lot of players get intimidated when they get hit like a freight train. In my three years we lost four games and won a state championship.

And a pitcher throwing 90+ can hit a batter by accident or on purpose and there will be pain and intimidation. There are basketball players who are 6'5" playing against 6' players who get elbowed out of the way and dunked on and that leads to pain and intimidation.

There is pain in every sport and to a certain degree intimidation. If a kid gets intimidated because he got hit like a freight train he has two choices - get stronger or quit. If a kid is intimidated because he got hit by a 90+ fastball he has two choices - get back in the box or quit. If a kid is intimidated because he got moved out of the way and dunked on he has two choices - get stronger so he can play better defense or quit.

Did you win all those games and championship because you hurt the other team or because you were just better? Sometimes being better is intimidation enough.

You're straying far from the point of the message. I'm not here to debate the intimidation factors in different sports. My point is there are a lot of nuts coaching football with using the "tough guy, be a man" approach. I've never heard a coach in another sport spouting off he's turning little, preteen boys into men. I've heard it several times from youth football coaches. Do coaches in all sports help athletes mature? Yes. But that's not what these coaches are talking about.

When I was a high school soph I went out for d-back. The coach grabbed me and said, "Weren't you a linebacker last year in junior high? Get with the linebackers."

There's a big difference between being a linebacker on a junior high and high school team. On the second formation my position's responsibility was to line up as a fifth down line man. I got mauled by a 260 pound tackle. That's when the humilation started. First it was the screaming and yelling. That's OK. It's high school football. Then the coach showed me what to do and lined up against me. I'm looking across the line at this fifty year old coach with no pads or helmet on. I came across the line soft using the correct technique. The coach physically beat the **** out of me. Then he called me too much of a ***** to play linebacker and sent me to the d-backs group.

There are plenty of these old school coaches left in coaching. Many of them are my age passing on what they learned from their coach. I've seen it even at the little kid youth level.

That year I was starting at safety by the third game of the season and started the next two years at corner. I had a reputation of being a hard hitting d-back. Did the coach inspire me with his lesson? No. I loved the game. I hated him for three years along with much of the team.

What I'm surprised about is that deaths like this don't happen more often. We have very limited experience with football, but with what we have, I can make this claim.

One of my boys played football for their grade school when they were in 4, 5, and 6 grades. The other one only in 4th. We learned how it really worked that year. If I treated my sons the way their coaches did, DCFS would have been called to take them away from me.

One of the things that their coach did was deny the boys water breaks. They would practice during the week for 2 hours straight, and on Saturday for 3. They would not get a break of any kind--not even for water. 8-9-10-11 year old kids. In fact, just before the weigh-ins, the coach put the kids who "needed to lose some weight" in order to "make weight" to play at the 6th grade level in rubber suits (or whatever material it was) and had them run, no water. This was at the end of August, when the temps can be sweltering and very humid here. All the kids did for 2-3 hours was run. No water breaks. The coach instructed the parents that the kids should not eat ANYTHING that would make them retain any water and they could only eat vegetables until the actual weigh-in.

The coach also pitted the smallest kids against the biggest kids. In fact, I remember a "hitting" drill during one practice where the smallest and youngest kid was up against one of the biggest, oldest and hardest-hitting kid. The older kid tried to move a place in line so that a different older kid would be up against the little kid. No such luck. The coach made him switch back, and when the older kid hit the younger one, it wasn't hard enough. He had to do it again. The little kid got a concussion, and actually was motionless for a few seconds on the field. The coach did not tell the parents what happened.

Within this program, there have been many kids who played with broken bones but with padded casts, of course. The played with broken fingers that were taped up, etc. Maybe this is typical for professional or collegiate or even high school football, but this was 4-6 grade little boys. Yes, the parents are enablers. But the fear factor resides---they are looking for the "football scholarship"---in 6th grade. "Scouts are watching".

By the way, did I mention this team was "good"? One year, they didn't allow even one point to be scored against them. But even back then, I knew that the definition of a "good team" had nothing to do with wins and losses.

Oh, the "coach" is still coaching. He has been "mentoring" one of his former players to take his place....and together they continue to coach the way it's always been done. And the beat goes on.

When I played football we never drank water during practice or games. We swished it around in our mouth and spit it out. I( wonder why ?

Keep in mind that there is different mentality with football coaches---different from basketball coaches who are different from baseball coaches and then there are s****r coaches


I am not saying what is right or wrong here but keep the differences in mind

TR that is the truth. I often wonder when I hear BB parents complain about BB coaches, what they would do when a FB coach is screaming at their kid 2 inches away from their face. Or , when they have you fend off every player twice in a goal line stance. Each player runs at you with a cross bock and several of them weigh 300 lbs until you are knocked silly. BB is a snap compared to that.

I played center as a senior in high school weighing 170 pounds. I lined up against guys EVERY single that were at least 30-40 pounds heavier if not more! At Triad (CoachB25's school) I faced two D-linemen weighing probably 325+ each and a middle LB that is now on the O-line at Mizzou.

I suffered more serious injury in baseball than I did in 6 years of football playing a variety of positions, but mainly center. I made two trips to the ER after getting hit with baseballs and I have other scars related to baseball. I also suffered multiple undiagnosed concussions both in baseball and football. Most were baseball related.

I missed more baseball time due to injury than I ever did because of football injury. In fact, I missed more time for getting hit with a baseball once than I did for spraining an ankle and spraining an MCL combined.

People somehow think that baseball is less dangerous than football. While I realize that football sees more injury per incident, I also think baseball is downright dangerous as well...


RJM, to answer your question about certified athletic trainers, to the best of my knowledge there is only one state that currently requires certified athletic trainers at secondary schools. That is Hawaii. I do believe, however, that Washington DC requires an athletic trainer and a physician to be present to play a football game..

Here is a Position Statement from the National Athletic Trainers Association on Exertional Heat Illnesses.

http://www.nata.org/statements/position/exertionalheatillness.pdf

This is certainly a sad tragedy for all involved. PRP (the high school involved) is known for having some good athletic programs. They were the KY State Champs last year in baseball. This coach, while being a first year head coach, had been an assistant for a few years.

While the head coach has been the only one indicted criminally, the family of the young man is suing all the coaches involved from what I understand in a civil suit.

I find it difficult to understand though why a trainer wasn't around. I haven't seen that explained. As the parent of two former HS athletes, our trainer was always somewhere around when various sports were practicing or playing. PRP is a large campus and I'm not sure where the s****r field is in relation to the football practice field - but I'd be curious in knowing where the trainer was.

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I find it difficult to understand though why a trainer wasn't around. I haven't seen that explained. As the parent of two former HS athletes, our trainer was always somewhere around when various sports were practicing or playing. PRP is a large campus and I'm not sure where the s****r field is in relation to the football practice field - but I'd be curious in knowing where the trainer was.

For starters, it should be Athletic Trainer and from all I have read, there was not one present. Does the school have one on staff?

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Originally posted by Bulldog 19:


For starters, it should be Athletic Trainer and from all I have read, there was not one present. Does the school have one on staff?

Yes,the athletic trainer is who I was referring to. I'm sure PRP has a trainer. They're a large school in Louisville. That's why I'm curious as to where the trainer was. With a game going on and football practicing. Plus, I'd imagine in August, you had cheerleading and volleyball probably going on as well. I'd be interested in knowing if the trainer was tied up elsewhere? I suppose it will probably be shared at some point.

Apparently, the community is showing STRONG support for the coach. This is the first time in history a coach has been charged with this. The poor guy has made one statement which was in his front yard, in tears, and surrounded by many supporters.

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Yes,the athletic trainer is who I was referring to. I'm sure PRP has an Athletic trainer. They're a large school in Louisville. That's why I'm curious as to where the Athletic trainer was. With a game going on and football practicing. Plus, I'd imagine in August, you had cheerleading and volleyball probably going on as well. I'd be interested in knowing if the Athletic trainer was tied up elsewhere? I suppose it will probably be shared at some point.

It's a shame that kids die playing any sport because of neglect or unknown existing medical conditions.

I remember practicing football in youth league in August and in High school in Wva 2 times a day in the afternoon. We were not allowed water during practice. The coach would give us salt tablets and run us until we dropped. It was very humid and hot. I'm suprised no one died back then and we never heard of anyone dying back then.

As far as idiot coaches go, there are a lot of them at every level in every sport. But one thing is for sure, if you want to be good a football, it's about hitting the opponent HARD. If you call it intimidation, so be it. That's the only way your going to get to the next level.

There are plenty of non-contact sports and activities for 21st century kids.