Know your level

Skip the dreams, deal in reality.

I am constantly amazed how few baseball games parents and kids go to, yet they expect to be part of a big time D1 program.

In my neck of the woods, most kids either go to see a MLB game or a D1 program that is perenially top 10. They know that playing for that D1 program is doubtful, yet they see other programs as a step down and they will "open their doors and welcome them."

I am constantly amazed how few parents and kids have gone to see a D2, D3 or JC game. Yet they figure they were successful in HS, they should be able to play D1 ball.

As I talk to parents, the first thing I tell them about college baseball is that it is a whole new world. The faster they educate themselves as to what the world looks like the better the chances they can help their son find a school which will embrace them and have a chance to continue to play baseball.

How do you really know unless you try.

I am impressed with every "expert" who on prima facie evidence would even steer someone anywhere other than trying to reach the highest level. They all must be baseball guru's.

Are any of you baseball authorities? Then you should be some pretty rich "muthas"

There have been alot of coaches that have told kids that they couldnt play for them only to get it handed to them by those same kids down the road. If you listen to everyone else then everyone else is controlling your destiny and not you. The bottom line is I think its important to understand what you really want. Are you content with going to play at the highest level you can achieve right now and working to be the best you can be earning a spot on the field eventually? Or is it more important to you that you find a place you feel you can walk right in and contribute at right away? Remember no matter where you go you are going to have to compete for playing time. There are not college teams out there with a bunch of scrubs sitting around waiting for you to come in and show them the way.

It all shakes out eventually. If you get the chance to play D1 fine. Maybe several tell you you are not good enough to play for them. But all it takes is one to say yes. Then its up to you to prove all the others wrong and the one that said yes right.

You will know where you stand in the college coaches eyes. It will be determined by who is interested and who is not. But that does not mean they are right. You are the only one that ultimately will determine that.

I side with TRhit and ILVBB, and as ole Clint Eastwood said in one of his movies, "A man has got to know his limitations".

quote:

Originally posted by ILVBB:
Skip the dreams, deal in reality.

I am constantly amazed how few baseball games parents and kids go to, yet they expect to be part of a big time D1 program.

In my neck of the woods, most kids either go to see a MLB game or a D1 program that is perenially top 10. They know that playing for that D1 program is doubtful, yet they see other programs as a step down and they will "open their doors and welcome them."

I am constantly amazed how few parents and kids have gone to see a D2, D3 or JC game. Yet they figure they were successful in HS, they should be able to play D1 ball.

As I talk to parents, the first thing I tell them about college baseball is that it is a whole new world. The faster they educate themselves as to what the world looks like the better the chances they can help their son find a school which will embrace them and have a chance to continue to play baseball.

Really good advice imho.

One way to know your level is go watch practice or games as ILVBB suggests. Go to a D1. Go to a D2. Go to a D3. Go to a Juco. You will notice something different at each one. In some cases, you will notice something you did not expect i.e., those D3 kids are really good or I think I can compete at some other level. Go watch practice and leave the rose-colored glasses at home. Go unannounced like Oldslugger mentioned in another post. One piece of advice I would add to that is let the coach know you were there after practice is over

If you are a fielder, notice how hard the kids throw the ball at the different levels. Notice how far they hit them. Notice how fast they run. Notice what size they are. Often, skills are similar at the different levels yet size and strength are different. Notice the difference in depth at the different levels. At one level, you might see one or two guys hitting them over the fences and at another level you might see seven or eight guys hitting them out consistently. For pitchers, notice the type of stuff you see. Often times, they have radar guns set up at practice and games. Stand behind the guns and see what they are throwing. Bring your own gun if you have one. Educate yourself like ILVBB suggests.

I also believe in taking chances. The higher the level of competition that you must face in practice each day to get on the field will serve to strengthen your own game. Know the risks you are taking however. See things with your own eyes and you can make some determinations about risk and how much you might be comfortable with.

Finally, imho focus on winning rather than level. A high-powered D3 who plays for a national championship each year and places their kids in good summer leagues may provide much better future pro prospects (and present satisfaction) than a loser D1.

Another thing to consider is there are different levels of D1, DII, DIII, JUCO, and NAIA schools around the country. You can go to a game which have two of the top schools in the country and that will be vastly different than two top teams in a very weak league.

There was a senior player in high school that got displaced at a Calif. high school by a sophomore, their parents were very upset with the high school coach for having a DI signee replaced by a sophomore, well the senior could not sign with a school in California, but had signed with a team in the Atlantic Sun Conference and has started ever since he was there, in fact he was either a freshman all conference or first team for the conference ever since.

There was another player also could not get a sniff at the DI or DII level in California that ended up signing at a DI school in Metro Atlantic Conference!

So know your level but also know the talent level around the country. The locals all look at DI’s in California and I say if they really want to continue their baseball careers, you should not restrict just looking within your state.

quote:

Originally posted by Pop Up Hitter dad:
I side with TRhit and ILVBB, and as ole Clint Eastwood said in one of his movies, "A man has got to know his limitations".

My friend, I am sorry, but I completely disagree; maybe for us old-timers limitations apply, but not for the boys. If I have learned anything from watching hardball lo these past 30 years it is, that it only takes a good break, a few weeks, and a little confidence for some young men to jump to the next level. Sorry, but the difference between one and the next is too often confidence and the willingness to believe and sacrifice.

Admittedly, this is anecdotal, but I know of two NoVA pitchers, both of whom were "overlooked" but ultimately drafted, and one position player, who basically knocked the door down and made himself a pro (currently in the Carolina League). Interested observers who fancied themselves as "experts" poopooed their chances (I will have to search the commentary from 2005-6, but I can PROVE that few experts, even one here as I recall, thought they were prospects), but they signed and are now getting paid to play.

I view D1 prospects the same. If you have it so figured out, quit your job and be an assistant coach somewhere and do your recruiting for your program...

Good post Coach May.

BTW, there's a topic in another thread about Evan Longoria not getting a D1 offer or drafted out of HS. Ha,ha.

I guess he wasn't buying what others thought and proved them wrong.

Your limiting yourself if you think you have a level.

Your goal is to make it to the next Level.

Whatever level is offered is the one you want to take.

If you have a choice, Great.

Until you make it to the MLB Majors, and stay there for a couple of years. Theres always going to be the next Level.

Never limit a player, Players never limit yourself. Go For It.

EH

I think a very important aspect to this is who it is that "knows."
The player may know he is a DI player.
But if there aren't DI coaches who "know" he is a DI player, he isn't.
College baseball recruiting is further complicated by it being quite regional as Homerun04 notes in a very, very good post.
IMO, the vast number of players at top DII's in California would be DI players in many other areas. Similarly, I would envision that most players at DII power University of Tampa are DI quality.
In my view, your level coming out of high school is based on the "knowledge" of the DI coaches who see and evaluate you.
When you get into college baseball, the level at which you can truly play comes largely from the player, what he believes, the size of his heart, his work ethic and how hard he works, his level of improvement, and what the player "knows" he can do.
What you "know" in high school, and what college coaches "know" when you are in high school, often times have nothing in common with the level at which it is "proven" you truly can play, in college and beyond.

quote:

Originally posted by infielddad:
I think a very important aspect to this is who it is that "knows."
The player may know he is a DI player.
But if there aren't DI coaches who "know" he is a DI player, he isn't.
College baseball recruiting is further complicated by it being quite regional as Homerun04 notes in a very, very good post.
IMO, the vast number of players at top DII's in California would be DI players in many other areas. Similarly, I would envision that most players at DII power University of Tampa are DI quality.
In my view, your level coming out of high school is based on the "knowledge" of the DI coaches who see and evaluate you.
When you get into college baseball, the level at which you can truly play comes largely from the player, what he believes, the size of his heart, his work ethic and how hard he works, his level of improvement, and what the player "knows" he can do.
What you "know" in high school, and what college coaches "know" when you are in high school, often times have nothing in common with the level at which it is "proven" you truly can play, in college and beyond.

Well said. To this I would add only that it is too often that you hear guys that made it to the pros state that they weren't even the most talented guys on their own high school/ travel / house league but they "made it" because they flat decided that they were going to. Great topic!

We're talking about limitations and levels but what we're really talking about is "FIT". "FIT" in my opinion is one of (if not the most) important aspect of having a successful baseball career. In order to improve to odds of a successful fit one must understand their ability and their current limitations. Understanding these allows them to put themselves into the correct program (or levels) that will maximize their develop. This development opens other opportunities at higher levels down the road. You can dream of playing big time D-1 but the best way to get there may be to go the JUCO route. You may be able to play pro ball but the best way to get there may be to forgo the draft out of high school and play college ball. Like ILVBB says "Skip the dreams, deal in reality" ----- for a successful career. That approach probably allows a player a better opportunity of achieving loftier goals. Having dreams is fine but be careful about ignoring reality and placing yourself at the highest level possible ----- If the fit is bad, "failure" is almost guaranteed. Like Homerun04 says there are different "levels" within the different divisions too. It's a complicated process and I have no doubt that "luck" factors in to a certain degree. Having come from the SEC I have seen players and parents knowingly sacrifice their sons playing the actual game for the egotictical rush of just "being on" a big team or major conference. This "little fish in a big pond" approach isn't what I would recommend to a player that loves the game.
Fungo

For those parents whose sons are in high school and starting the recruiting journey...take this advice to heart. It will make "the experience" much less agonizing. Fungo and TRhit were two of the posters who convinced me of this with my son...and it holds true.

The best advice I ever heard was, if the player stops playing baseball, is this the school he wants to be attending. The level of talent in College Baseball strikes me as being extremely wide ranging. The "academic fit" for each player has as many variables. The academic, geographic and demographic of schools in the same DI conference (Think of the Big East)is so far ranging that if a student thinks "DI", but does not weigh the significant different experiences offered by the the college/campus, he may be in for a big surprise. Our experience led us to believe that baseball talent wise and academically, the best place for my son was a DIII in the NESCAC. Could we have found a DI where he could play? Maybe. So far, (it is still early in Frosh year) the choice for son feels right, both for baseball and academics.

I don't have anything particularly wise to offer here other than whats already been said.

But I have an observation from our son's college days. Most (all?) serious players who don't get to play too much aren't very happy...even at the 'school of their dreams.'

quote:

This "little fish in a big pond" approach isn't what I would recommend to a player that loves the game.

Couldn't agree more!

Fungo,

As usual excellent advice. You always have great words of wisdom.

The only think I can add is I agree with the others posters as far as dont let someone define who you are. Take it as far as you can go. Example:no major looks out of HS(LONGORIA, PEDROIA(SPELL CHECK)So if not gettng the looks go to a JC to start as Longoria did. Play hard , work hard and then see if looks come,if thats what your looking for. For some posters their boys decided D3 was a good fit academicall y and baseball and they are happy with their choice. Other players sometimes dont want that and want to try for something else.
As a parent of one of those players who by the way was very dissapointed when my son turned down a few excellent D3 options, I loved the schools, the coaches and still think they would of been good fit but son did not. So bottom like with all this , that they are in a school they like working towards their degrees and one day there will come a time when they will each and every one Hang up their cleats. that is a reality from day to day with injuries etc.So my hope and prayers are that he has his gegree #1, that he has pursued his dream and either makes it to where he wants or learns to accept where he is at if it doesnt happen and move on and play for the remainder of college and have a great time.
I guess for me I have watched my kids overcome much adversity, and it makes them stronger, my son is working hard in school and on the field and I hope he achieves his dream,but if not what a great man he is becoming , and what a great game he is getting to play past HS. Each and every game is a plus for all of us.

Two schools of thought in this thread:

1. Give everything you've got to try and reach the dream of playing DI or Pro ball.

2. Pursue baseball as far as you can take and still be enjoying it.

Players (and parents) from camp #1 would probably be happy to spend years in the baseball environment and possibly go on to coaching or some other baseball related field. They live for the sport.

Players from camp #2 love the competition of baseball, but they are realistic about their chances of making a career out of baseball. At some point they have to decide whether they will be able to get on with their career while spending so much time playing baseball.

In my opinion, there is nothing wrong with either school of thought. It depends on the individual.

Blprkfrnks,

had to look at your name there for a minute . good one I must say.
Anyway exactly on your post.Very good post I agree100%.No right or wrong most important GET YOUR DEGEE.

I think TR and Fungo are providing solid guidance that applies coming out of high school. But I am pretty confident both would also agree that getting the right fit or knowing your level out of high school provides the floor or base for you as a college player, it does not define their "ceiling" as a player.
When your son is coming out of high school, it is very, very important to understand and know his level.
Almost always, that level, coming out of high school is defined by who is recruiting him and making offers to him.
If your son is receiving lot's of interest from DII's, DIII's or JUCO's, and little to none from DI's, then he is not a "fit" at the DI level.
That does not mean he is not a DI player. It means that coming out of high school, he is not a DI player. Both the parent and player are well advised to accept that, and, as TR and Fungo point out, too many do not.
Once those young men get to college, whether it is DII, DIII or JUCO, they can play and work themselves to be DI and professional prospects. It happens all the time.
As TR and Fungo advocate, by "knowing your level" and having the "fit" out of high school, your son will end up playing, sometimes from day one. If he is at the right level, and with the good "fit," he can thrive as a baseball player and fulfill that potential that might not have been so obvious in the recruiting process out of high school.
DI players, and those with the potential and ability to play professionally are not always defined by the high school recruiting process. That process defines where they fit at that point.
After the player gets the right fit, at the right level, they can look to fulfill their dream and play to their maximum potential.
If I am reading TR and Fungo correctly, they are suggesting making the choice out of high school where your son can play is critical.
By "playing" in college, the "extent of" or "limits to" his dream will then be defined.

quote:

But I am pretty confident both would also agree that getting the right fit or knowing your level out of high school provides the floor or base for you as a college player, it does not define their "ceiling" as a player.

infielddad - This is a VERY key point that I am learning more and more about. Our younger son's HS coach has had a lot of players go onto all levels of college ball and pro ball as well. One or two are on the cusp of making the big leagues. He has told me the stories of many of his players who have made the jump. They are all over the map as to where they started the college/pro journey and where they finally ended up.

He likes to say, in effect, 'I love to be proven wrong!' He also talks about one of those ex-players on the cusp of making the big leagues and how as a young HS player he didn't play much...then played but didn't get much attention from colleges. About how his dad kept telling him, "He's better than you think...he can do this!" His father has passed, but this coach says there isn't a day that goes by where he doesn't hear from the kids father in his mind, "I told you so!"

He fully intends to jump on a plane and be there the day that young man steps on a big league field and he couldn't be more proud of him.

Everyone develops at different times. And desire cannot be measured.

justbaseball, You mention desire and I thought I would share a personal story about a player that is the poster child for desire. Drew Sutton was my son's teammate in high school. He always played in the shadow of my son with little attention given him. But his desire was obvious and in my opinion close to being an obsession. He lived here in our town with his divorced mother while his father lived in Texas. I suggested he come to our house and I would help him with his hitting. It was a daily event to see him coming down the driveway and he would "pound" baseball until I was exhausted and only after I "mentioned" I had other things to do. He went JUCO out of HS and then on to Baylor and then was drafted in the 15th round by the Astros. Today his desire is still evident as he breaks records and sets on the doorsteps of MLB. Watch for Drew Sutton next year to make the move.

An article from last week's paper:
The former North Side High School and Baylor University star is a member of the Corpus Christi Hooks of the Texas League and was named the Houston Astros Double-A 2008 most valuable player.

Corpus Christi is the Astros' Double-A affiliate.

"It was a great year for me personally," Sutton said. "I wish it would have been a better year for the team."

Sutton had the fourth highest batting average in the Texas League hitting .317 for the Hooks, with 20 home runs and driving in 69 runs.

Sutton finished with an on-base percentage of .408, second in the league and was named to the Texas League's Midseason and Postseason All-Star teams.

But Sutton does not a lot of time to savor his award.

He has been assigned to the Arizona Fall League and plays for the Scottsdale Scorpions.

Sutton is one of three position players and four pitchers from Corpus Christi assigned to Scottsdale.

"The Scorpions are a combination of five teams," Sutton said. "The Astros, (Pittsburgh) Pirates, (San Francisco) Giants, (Boston) Red Sox and the (Los Angeles) Angels."

Sutton played the majority of the 2008 season at second base, but saw action in 15 games at third and shortstop.

"Here, I'll play each position," Sutton said. "Of course, absolutely, this year was a big step in the right direction."

Which adds to his chances of making an even bigger step in his career.

"Putting the numbers up that I did, it is possible to be close, to get a chance to go to a big league camp next (spring) and compete," Sutton said.

But what about a move to Triple-A before the majors?

"There is talk about Triple A, but (Astros) told me that the possibility existed of making the bigs if I played in Triple-A or not," Sutton said. "They did not see it as a necessity for me going to Triple-A."

Sutton, 25, said it was September 2007 the last time he has been in Jackson spending most of his offseason in Nashville working and training.

"I'm glad to be out here," Sutton said. "The first of September (2007), I had to get a real job while living in Nashville teaching lessons, so I'm not complaining.

"I'm playing with and against great players."

Fun, ain't it, Fungo..............

quote:

Originally posted by Fungo:
justbaseball, You mention desire ...."[/i]

Fungo,
Excellent post. Meaning no disrespect to the evaluators who, no doubt, have a keen eye for velocity and foot speed and "pop"; I have seen too many times where a young man's heart is the difference between one level and the next. Thanks.
OBC

Great post Fungo! You never know what the future holds but I'm sure you had a good idea this young man was going far in baseball by his work ethic. I agree about the small fish in big pond, sitting on a bench in college is far worse than HS due to all the time one puts in with practice, etc. That is the one piece of advice I hope son will listen to.

My son played Little League with a 2008 kid some years back, even then he was a awesome hitter and pitched well. He really stuck to the books, and even though he had injuries in HS, he ended up being recruited by Harvard and other Ivy League schools. He decided on Harvard. We had a chance to play against his summer team this past summer and I asked him what his plans are. He said "Go to school and than the big Leagues". I know this kid will make it, he has that look of determination in his eyes.

I just wanted to relay this story.

I know of two players who dreamed of playing at FSU most of their lives (one players parent alumni). Both were not ready or offered opportunities out of HS, they were told that they were not top D1 material. So they both headed off to JUCO here in Florida. Two years later, FSU still wouldn't give either one of them the time of day, but they both were given opportunities to play at another D1 in the same conference (one came a year before the other). Both made significant impacts at that program, both drafted (one twice but decided to remain another year and finish his degree) and one was a third round pick in 2007 only after playing D1 ball for one year.

Sometimes you are not ready to play where you want to or where you feel that you should. Reasons could be for your current talent level, lack of physical maturity or your grades. As stated above, the amount of attention you recieve by division usually helps for one to understand that.

That's about knowing your level at the time of recruiting.

Then it's about working hard so that you are able to prove the naysayers wrong.

BTW, best part of the story, when facing FSU, they both had unbeleiveable games..... payback.

quote:

Then it's about working hard so that you are able to prove the naysayers wrong.

BTW, best part of the story, when facing FSU, they both had unbeleiveable games..... payback

Good story!

I have seen some D1 clunkers as well. Heck, I have seen big league clunkers for most of my life

Seriously, the best game I saw all year was the final game of the D3 college world series. A senior was called upon to pinch hit with the bases loaded and a tie game in extra innings. This player, who was a starter for most of his career, had lost his starting role to a younger player. He fouled pitch after pitch off and eventually drew a game ending walk-off walk to win the national championship. When they interviewed that kid after the game, he said he never hung his head nor quit working hard because he thought the coach might need him to help them win. That is truly what the game is all about.

Kbat,
Not sure which D1 you are talking about, but many players on any level often can't hit a 88-93 FB down the middle.
I agree with some of which you said, there are many D1 programs that receive that designation because of other sports offered. So that is where the confusion comes in about knowing your level. There are many D2,D3 programs that surpass mid-lower tier D1 programs, maybe even top tier as well!

I'd love to see the NCAA cross division lines within certain sports, but that will never happen. This would also allow the D2,D3 player an opportunity to prove they are worthy of playing beyond college (by way of more exposure). Unfortunetly, D1 draws more scout interest just because it's a scouts job to find players to draft, and somehow they think they can't be found elsewhere.
JMO.

quote:

Originally posted by kbat2012:
Sorry, maybe I am delusional. I have got the season ticket for our D1 team, which is very cheap only cost about $70. So I watched a lot of D1 games. I am just amazed by those high strike out ratios, D1 player can't hit a fastball right down the middle which always puzzles me. Why can't a D1 player hit a fastball 88-93 mph coming right in the middle of the plate? I started to "dis" D1 baseball since then. I think the ability to hit defines the differences between "Pros" and "Amateurs". To be honest with you, I don't think D1 compareing to D2, or JC has too big a difference except better grade, better "Team" talaent, better money, and maybe better coaching/facility, etc. To the individual baseball talent, I don't see the huge gap. Thus, if you have good grade and above average talent at HS level, you should try to shoot for D1 no matter what. You can always improve your game during your college year. Don't never settle for less...JMHO

What level of D1 ball are you watching? There are different levels. I have the opportunity to watch ACC, Big East, A10 , Colonial and Ivy baseball. The ACC is major D1. They will send teams to the CWS. The Big East is notch below. They might send a team to the CWS. The A10 and Colonial are mid-level D1. It would take an upset for them to send teams to the CWS (UNCC and UNCW were ranked). Ivy League ball looks like D2 (from the two D2 games I've seen).

In fact, for people like TRHit who may be able to evaluate this, I had a conversation with a Harvard baseball dad last spring. Would Trinity (D3 national champions) with their ace (drafted and promoted from Rookie A to low A a few weeks after signing) on the mound beat Harvard (a low level D1)? The Harvard dad was familar with the Trinity program. He called it 50/50.

I'm a one year "newbie" to the college scene as my son is now a sophomore. As for many D1 hitters having trouble hitting an 88-93 mph fastball right down the middle I would have to disagree. Sure, there were plenty of swings and misses, but more often than not, in the games I saw, the hitter usually put a hard straight fastball in play.
I think one of the biggest differences I witnessed between high school and college ball was how hard the young men at the collegiate level hit the ball consistently, even the outs.

quote:

A senior was called upon to pinch hit with the bases loaded and a tie game in extra innings. This player, who was a starter for most of his career, had lost his starting role to a younger player. He fouled pitch after pitch off and eventually drew a game ending walk-off walk to win the national championship. When they interviewed that kid after the game, he said he never hung his head nor quit working hard because he thought the coach might need him to help them win. That is truly what the game is all about.

GREAT story CD!!!!!