Lake Point turf mounds

A significant number of MLBers wear molds. They're lighter than metal. A tarp can saturate through in a torrential downpour. A mound can get wet while playing in rain. A mound can get wet in an instant in a downpour before the field crew can get the tarp out. A turf mound can have the water vacuumed off. PG has to keep the games rolling as fast as possible. I don't think Indiana University said, "20 million dollars for a stadium and we have stink'n turf mounds."

It's the first year at the facility. I'm sure they will assess everything to see what worked and what didn't.

Considering that most teams will play only a game or 2 on turf, it's not the end of the world.

It's all about the money, not baseball... baseball should be played on grass and dirt... if you get rained out, you get rained out.... look foward to tomorrow...

How about the money teams have to spend on entry fees/travel/hotels to only get in 2 or 3 games because of the weather?  That's a bigger issue that is has its impact lessened by having the turf fields.

Ultimately, it's a consumer market. Nobody is forcing a team to play at a PG event. If the team is bothered by the prospect of having to play a game or two on turf they can simply play elsewhere.

I can understand a facility like PG's needing to be able to bounce back quickly from rain; you have teams (and hopefully recruiters and scouts) coming in from all over, and more coming in every week. So games need to proceed as close to schedule as possible. Rain-outs should be rare and this calls for all-turf fields with serious drainage.

The turf mounds, however, are a really disappointing decision. Pitchers are coming there to show what they can do. Turf mounds will effect that by varying degrees depending on each pitcher. Turf fields with dirt mounds is how it should be.

I can see that turf fields would help in keeping games from being rained out.... but changing the playing surface changes the game... the turf give a different bounce,  there's no warning track, the mounds are too difficult to pitch off of, but hey if it means more money , by all means change the game..... and that is what is happening the game is being changed for money.... 

scouts and recuiters will get who they want whether is rains or not.

I hope that more teams refuse to play on turf, but they won't , they are being sold a dream of playing college and pro baseball, but the fact is only a fraction will . 

IMO much ado by parents about nothing.  Pretty sure there are plenty of pitchers on plenty of teams that will gladly line up to take the ball on a turf mound anywhere at anytime. 

My kid would throw in a swimming pool if asked.  Pretty sure he is not alone.

It's not me that does not prefer the little league mound it's about 25 pitchers that I have talked to about it.  When our summer coach told the players they were pitching on turf , they were not happy..... I have to ask how old is your son

My son is a 2016 and will be there in two weeks for the 17s.

My answer was a bit tongue in cheek but in all sincerity players take their cues from us parents and their coaches.  Make it an issue if you want and your kid will as well.  Just my opinion.

Solution seems pretty simple.  If you or your son don't want an outing on turf refuse the ball and pitch somewhere else.  My guess you are going to find lots of eyeballs watching those games at that site.  Guess each individual has to evaluate the risk vs. the potential reward.

Last year our 17s sat in a hotel room waiting for a call for a week and played 3 games I believe.  I welcome any attempt to get more games in if I am traveling 15 hours to play at a site.

So your son is in the mist of the recruiting season... I get it.... mine is 18 has graduted signed and moves Aug 17th  so I guess I do not have the same take on it this year as I would have last year...  Good luck to your son.

Soylent Grunt will be throwing off of said mounds at PG in a couple of weeks as well.  I agree with Backstopdad that as a player/prospect you do what you have to do... No whining.  But turf mounds are still a poor choice by PG anyway you slice it. I also agree with Bacdorslider that these are basically "little league mounds", although I have to admit that I didn't realize IU's new yard features a turf mound, per RJM's post above. Had to check this to belive it but there it is. Still think this stinks personally, but just one guys opinion.  There are a lot of turf HS fields around Dallas, but all feature dirt mounds as far as I know.

My son has pitched on them the last couple of years in Regionals and never said anything about them. Actually I never even thought about it. Come to think of it I am not sure if he used his turf's or metal cleats. I will ask him just for kicks.

Non issues as far as I am concerned. 

Have the people complaining pitched off one of these turf mounds. Not all turf mounds are created equal. Just because people have experienced some bad turf mounds in LL this does not mean that these will be bad.

My Son's Conference Tournament is played in The Chillicothe Paints Veterans stadium. Guess what it has a turf mound.

http://community.hsbaseballweb...efty-vs-case-western

He has not had a complaint about it. I would suggest going in with an open mind, you may be surprised.

I to prefer, watching baseball with a Dirt mound and grass. This is a big part of their summer but will only play a few games from the turf mounds. If your son is playing here only a few games will be at this facility, and unless your son is going to pitch every game the chances are he will not have to pitch off of the turf.

I am sure if their are issues with the mounds it will get addressed if need be down the road.  

I should stay out of these debates, but would it be possible to first play there before making comments Good or bad?

First let's take the turf fields, since that has been addressed as well as the mounds. We have done events in Major League Stadiums that have turf fields.  Would someone refuse to play on those fields? Does anyone really think turf fields are all about the money?  Please understand just how expensive it is to put in turf fields.  Just in the first 4 fields we would have saved more than $2 million by not turfing.

The mounds... Indiana University has the same mounds.  They have produced first round pitchers and  players and they were in the College World Series in 2013. We did a lot of research before going with turf mounds.  In fact, I was the most vocal against turf mounds.  There are actually many advantages.  No more different mound from one to another. No worry about the holes that sometimes develop during a game that can actually throw a pitch off.  Less down time during rain.  

The mounds are first framed into the ground, concrete is formed to exact specifications. Material us added to replicate the feel of a perfect MLB level mound as far as specs and feel.  MLB mounds are very hard!  Then special turf is used with the ability to replace the pitching path when needed.  These mounds were very expensive.  Yes, they will save time and money to take care of them, but it will take 5 years to recoup the difference.  So if anyone is saying this is all about money, they are certainly barking up the wrong tree.  Then again, guess it is about money... Lots of it!  Anyone who sets foot on the complex will understand that immediately. Everything could have been done cheaper if that were the main thing.

So far, we have already made some changes.  We have not noticed any difference among the pitchers we have a history on.  No one has complained about slipping that I know of.  We haven't seen any pitcher slipping.  If and when this becomes a problem, we will change the mounds.  

The most important thing for us is playing games.  We do not give refunds if teams miss games. Truth is we actually save money when games are not played.  So how is building expensive fields, most expensive turf, most expensive lights, digital scoreboards, biggest scout tower in baseball, etc., save money.  Many of our tournaments draw teams, scouts, college coaches, agents, etc., from coast to coast.  It costs a lot of money and time for these people to sit in their hotel room for days. Not to mention they are not very happy about it.

Last point... If your team actually doesn't want to play at the complex simply tell us and we won't schedule any of your pool games there.  However, if you make the championship round you will have to play there.  There are many fields we use so it is easy to schedule games at other sites with normal fields and dirt mounds. Personally, I think that teams would not be happy with that decision. Many unhappy players and parents.

Our goal is to make this the nicest baseball complex on earth.  If changes are needed, changes will be made.  We have already made some changes to improve things. Many colleges have already signed up to play there next spring.  

PG staff, that's blasphemy.  It's Indiana University (not university of). 

For the record... I was completely against going with turf mounds.  Both from the cost standpoint and because I am old school. Ai was persuaded by many who have experienced the turf mounds. This included some very experienced college coaches.

These are not Little League mounds!  They are the same mounds that Indiana University and other colleges use.

I too love the real grass and all the old standards.  However, with the number of games we play the grass would disappear after a couple weeks.  

I ask that people wait until they have actually been there before complaining about things.  And it truly pisses me off when people say it is all about money.  Of course, we want to make money, we have lots of families to feed.  But if this were all about money, this complex would look much different. You will understand that in a hurry once you are there.

Golfman,

That is embarrassing, I need to edit.

Again let's be critical of anyone we don't agree with.

the comments like don't come or let us know and we ll let u play elsewhere r unnecessary. This man has a legit concern. Maybe he ll change his mind after personal exp there but he has a right to express his issues

as a parent I have never commented of a turf mound. Personally my son played on a nice one recently, but it had rained earlier and said he was slipping. Tried changing into molded shoes, but it didn't help much.Some pitchers don't use lower body as much and they may not have problems w slipping.  If it's a problem for say 25% of pitchers then it's a problem. 

Turf has both good and bad  Issues.

lets all have this discussion again in the Fall after we have all been there

My son will be there in two weeks also.  I have no idea if he'll pitch on the magical, mystical turf mounds.  If he does and one of these "Lakepoint PG Mound" threads is still around (and I really hope they're not), I'll give an honest assessment.....of one person's experience.  Hardly imperical data, but it will be the boy's opinion.  He's pitched in a lot of places with a lot of different mounds (and yes, he LOVES the MLB "hard" spring training mounds), so I'll trust his judgement.

If a college is interested and sees a pitcher "having an issue" with the mounds, you can bet they're not going to write the player off over something that petty.  If they did, they wouldn't be there for long.  Recruiting coordinators and MLB scouts get paid to evaluate talent.  That talent shows and is seen by them....even when a player is having a bad day, for whatever reason.

PG, your organization does a lot and you and yours are entitled to make a profit.  Geez people, calm down.

That actually seemed to be a genuine response to the concern.  If a team thinks the mounds will be an issue, they just need to request to not play on them. 

I will reserve judgement about the turf fields and the mounds at Lake Point until after this weekend. Son's team has two games there, so I will get an opinion from son and his teammates.

But from the fields that I have seen my son and his teammates play on ( Vandy, Belmont, and I few others I cannot remember plus a few high school fields)  the pitchers do not like the turf mounds. But they also do not like a mound that is torn up from having 10 games played on it either.  The outfielders did not like the fact that while going back to the wall there is no warning track that they can feel and realize they are near the wall.

PGStaff , with all due respect, it is about money or this complex would not have been built in the first place.  I'm sure everyone involved is hoping to turn a profit and there is nothing wrong with that.  If it was cheaper to grow grass and maintain the mounds then why not do that?

 I'm just old school, I like the smell of the dirt, the grass, the warning track etc..... I like to see the dirt kick up, and the chalk fly..... and from what I have been told there is nothing better for a pitcher to step on a new dirt mound and rub out his spots and throw that first pitch.  I was at a turf filed last weekend and it plays much different, sliding into bags is different, the ball plays different I just do not like baseball on turf.  But I don't like football on turf either.

I understand that the amount of games that are played it would be very tough to maintain the mounds, but that's what we have been doing for many years.  

I can see your point about limiting the amount of rain-outs so teams can get there games in and college recruiters can see their prospects.

My son was forunate enough to pitch in the Nationals park and he said to this day it was the best mound he has ever thrown off of.... But he hated the Vandy mound.  I think it has to do with the spikes going into the dirt and that does not happend with turf.  But I will ask him why he feels that way tonight.

playball2011,

I have tried to honestly address this topic as well as the one you started awhile back. If you read exactly what I have said in both threads you will get that.  It was claimed that this is all about money!  That is simply a false accusation that would be clearly obvious to anyone once they got there.

If there is something we can do that will improve the place we are going to do it.  This project is a gigantic financial risk due to the cost of building it first class.  It has to be as good as possible or we have a problem.  

So far, every complaint (yes, I think we can define them as complaints) is from people who haven't been there yet.  I have been there a lot, seen many games played, including  after a big storm went through, should I not reply?

Anyway, you said it yourself, why not wait until after you have been there.  I'm guessing you and others might change minds about turf mounds, water, and other things. So far, I have changed my mind about turf mounds, but time will tell.  Right now our biggest problem is hotels, and I expect hear some complaints about that.  Those complaints will be justified IMO.  

And it is true, if someone doesn't want to play games at the complex for any reason, it is not a problem to schedule games at other fields. And it is true, that if that is the case, I suggest not taking the team and parents out there to see the place. Not being critical, just trying to make things easier.

I'm not interested in arguing or being overly critical.  Just trying to give people what I believe is accurate information.  If I had any brains I would just shut up and let things play out.

I really don't get the complaints.  Anyone who has been anywhere knows what weather can do to a tournament.  Even in Cooperstown it takes hours to get the fields prepped after a rain.  Without question, turf is the way to go.  While the install cost is higher, the turn around between games and ongoing maintenance is less.  With the amount of feet a pitchers mound sees, I can only imagine what condition dirt mounds would be in -- full of holes and soft spots.  

It's about getting games in and giving the customer what they paid for.

Some are less adaptable to change. They imagine there's a problem because it's not the way it's always been.

It doesn't matter how much money Perfect Game makes. Become gazillionaires. As long as PG provides a service to baseball recruits worth the price of participation it's nobody's business how much PG makes.

Backdoorslider,

You and I probably feel the same way about some of this. Originally I was very much against turf mounds.  It took a lot of convincing to change my mind. Obviously there were big advantages... Prepping the mound, replacing clay, dirt getting into the turf, and  other things.  However the cost of these mounds scared me.  And like you I was worried about one thing, would it effect the pitchers?  my other issue, I'm being honest here, was pitchers and teams using it as an excuse if they didn't perform well. I know it's still early, but so far we just haven't received complaints.  We haven't seen ANY slipping. I understand that might change. We have played some very high level events there and don't see a difference among pitchers we have a long history on.

Once again, the biggest reason for the turf is weather related.  We have dealt with rain most every year in Georgia.  Some years it has been terrible.  One year a team from California played 2 games the entire week.  The turf eliminates that!

I too enjoy the cloud of dust on those slides at 3B and HP. It is part of the game.  However, there is no dirt, the fans don't eat the dust, the seats are not covered with dust. The uniforms don't get dirty, I actually don't like that!  But it kind of amazed me just how clean everything is.  I actually kind of liked that!

With everything said, nothing is perfect and there will always be preferences.  If you get there when I'm there, look me up. I will probably be sitting comfortably in that great big air conditioned tower. But if you have a complaint, please ask for the tournament director rather than me.  I hope all the HSBBW sons that play there really enjoy it. Best of luck.

PGStaff:

I have to say, dude, I admire your patience and fair-mindedness.   You and your organization rock!

PGStaff,

I do not think the pitcher compliants were due to poor performance, rather it being new and they did not like something new.  Pitchers are strange and do not like new things.

Now I will say that of the turf fields I have seen there can be a huge difference in the type and length of the turf.... Some have had the ground up rubber on them and some have not.

I will be there this weekend with an open mind, but I will miss the dirt and grass.

Thank you SluggerDad!

RJM,

There are people on this site that know me well.  I am not a business person!  Money has never motivated me to do anything I didn't want to do. I get my kicks from accomplishing things.  Many of the things that cost us money rather than profit are among the most important. If it were anything other than baseball there would be no business. I wish everyone could truly enjoy how they make a living.  People tend to be best at what they enjoy the most. My biggest rewards are always the kids who become successful.  I have been involved in baseball at most every level, but never had the impact on so many as with PG.  To me, that is much more rewarding than being wealthy.

The thing I don't like is the pressure.  Mostly because of the many good people we have.  I feel obligated in ways for their livelihood.  Their family becomes a very big concern.  You worry about failure affecting so many people. And every day I know we are capable of failure! I worry about failure!

On the other hand, I'm not allergic to money and I like your Gazillionaire thinking!

Maybe you can have your cake and eat it too.

We just got back from Diamond Nation in Flemington, NJ.  When I first saw that even the mounds were turfed there, I was stunned and candidly worried.

After playing 6 games there, I can honestly say that our pitchers were totally unaffected by it.  (Other than the fact that we had to do a quick run to Sports Authority before our first game!)

I'm glad we did that event so that any anxiety is gone before we head to Atlanta.  But for the rest of you, don't sweat it.  Speaking from personal and very recent experience, there's nothing to worry about.  Just be sure to pack both kinds of shoes!

TPM,

The helicopter experiment could be labeled a failure.  Seemed like a good idea at the time, just didn't work. Big waste of money!

I have never been a fan of the "little league" turf mounds.  My son will not play at these fields, unfortunately, but I would be pretty comfortable saying that the mounds at this complex are FAR from being the old "little league" turf mounds.  The only concern I would have is that my son is one of those "groomers".  He's always kicking the dirt and digging out little pebbles and doing landscaping on the landing area.  I'm not sure how he would conduct himself on a mound where there was nothing to groom.  

I would like to take a drive over there at some point just to see the complex.  Sounds pretty phenomenal to me.  

My son has pitched on both turf and dirt mounds growing up.  As it was mentioned before and detailed out by PGStaff, these are not your "backyard built" mounds.  I would submit that  pitchers using excuses of poor performance due to the opposing pitchers holes in the dirt mounds is eliminated.

I applaud PGStaff for his continual transparency regarding their decision processes and business model.

No tobacco, seeds, peanuts, coolers, tents, tailgating....

Stepford baseball 

Just like the previous thread which eventually was closed, this one is way over the line in my view. 

Some things I can glean  from threads like this and those trashing HS baseball and HS baseball coaches include: 1.) don't do anything which could possibly impact my son's ability to be seen by a recruiter; 2.) meet my son's  needs or I will complain; 3.) the rules don't apply to my son and he will bring in his drinks in his bag; 4.) if I am paying, I get to have a say in how things work or complain loudly and bitterly if I don't get my way: 5.) PG, don't you understand how critical this is for my son to be seen by college coaches and be recruited and you are ruining it by the mounds, the water, the...and look at how much it cost; 6.) my son and my money  makes me a stakeholder in how PG runs Lake Point.

Geez, can we close this one too?

what are you taking about?  this has nothing to do with recruiters, players, 'being seen by a college coach. 

I don't like the turf, I don't like rules at this park, has nothing to do with a HS coach, team, college coach... player etc....

I agree with infielddad.  I think people have had their say on this one and PG has graciously responded.  Thread closed.

Thanks in advance for understanding.