Late Break

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Originally posted by Quincy:
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Against a poor hitter, late break can make a hitter look real good.

How can late break make a poor hitter look good?

quote:

Originally posted by Quincy:
The sinker and splitter have risen to be the more popular late breaking pitches thrown effectively.

Why do you believe those particular pitches break late?

Late break against a poor hitter, especially one who strikes out often, will many times cause the ball to break into the swing. More often than not, this contact leads to hits.

A well thrown sinker or split finger will drop late as it reaches the plate. It used to be said that a good sinker just falls off the table.

A late breaking curve or slider will usually be more effective than one that a batter can read and adjust to.

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Late break against a poor hitter, especially one who strikes out often, will many times cause the ball to break into the swing. More often than not, this contact leads to hits.

A well thrown sinker or split finger will drop late as it reaches the plate. It used to be said that a good sinker just falls off the table.

A late breaking curve or slider will usually be more effective than one that a batter can read and adjust to.

I couldn't disagree with this premise more.
Late break is death. late break means that if you adjust to what you see leave the hand becomes a terrible bat strike, late break means frozen and dejected. Sinkers from a righty to a righty is in and down the splitty is straight down.
Oh yah give me late break, if a poor hitter adjusts at the late break...he ain't a poor hitter...

The point is that a poor hitter does not adjust to late break. Further, the initial swing is not targeted to good contact before the late break.

As an example, a batter with 'dip' in his swing will have a tendency to swing under a pitch. Should the ball drop late, it will find the bat rather than the bat finding the ball.

In my experience, a good sinker drops straight down while a splitter has a curving drop. I recall pitchers such as Tommy John who had a masterful sinker. What appeared to be a straight pitch would usually drop straight down within three feet of the plate. (usually hitting the ground before being caught).

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In my experience, a good sinker drops straight down while a splitter has a curving drop. I recall pitchers such as Tommy John who had a masterful sinker. What appeared to be a straight pitch would usually drop straight down within three feet of the plate. (usually hitting the ground before being caught).

I don't remember TJ having a sinker..but my brother was the crazy White Sox fan in the family ..I do remember his hook was nice.
As far as sinkers I'd point to Brandon Webb, Zambrano and Maddux...all three have a sinker and they all bust down and in, it's why they get ground ball after ground ball...The Rocket's Mr. Splitty comes to mind and it was a drop off the earth pitch.

I understand what you are pointing to and your experience is most definately as pertainent as mine, so we stand blinking at each other in disagreement...I would make the point that "accidental contact" will happen no matter what but keep in mind we aren't throwing in a micro-cosim, if the guy is weak, hopefully the pitcher is smart enough to be very aggressive and blow him away for the intimidation factor. My most recent experience was my own kid who is a late movement/sinker pitcher (BTW this late movement made every scout that has watched him go nuts and comment on the desireability of it)..he completely dominated N. Fla. High School hitters with it (Finished the season with the lowest ERA in his schools history 0.89 and only one school scored more than one run on him..St Augustine got him for 3).
He just got hooked up with a full ride with Indian River and Coach O'B's biggest comment and smile came watching the late movement.
So yes an accidental contact hit may happen but by all evidence, everybody will take the chance to get all the grounders.

I also disgree with Quincy. A late break pitch is a pitch that should fall out of the strike zone. You have to be a very disiplined hitter to avoid swinging at it. If it is high and breaks into the strike zone the pitcher made a big mistake. The whole idea of late breaking CBs is to make it look like it is right where the hitter likes it and then it falls out of the zone.

Rather than getting lost on comparisions,I'd like to return to my original question.

Do high school coaches or coaches at lower levels teach and promote the use of such late breaking pitches as the sinker or splitter?

Most often I see the usual fast ball, change up pitchers with the occasional curve ball.

As is your case and the kid from Clearwater, such pitches as the sinker can be a valuable pitch to have in the arsenal.

Where are young pitchers to learn such artful pitches?

Granted the curve ball and screw ball are not recommended for younger pitchers, but coaches and instructors should in my view become more creative.

Such pitches as the knuckle ball can be more devastating after a fast ball than say a change or curve. Yet the use seems to be frowned upon.

Quicy I am not sure what you are going on about.
It is a rare HS coach that knows anything about pitching even when they think they do. You should always get pro advice on ptching. Most HS coaches just want you to get outs.
If you are going to throw all those pitches you will probably master non of them.

Okay as an example, a right handed pitcher maxes out at 85 as a senior on his fastball.

Quite hittable, little to no prospects.

That same pitcher throwing a sinker is now a star with greater prospects.

My main point is that there are more tools for pitchers than fastball, change up for them to be successful.

Pitches with late break if thrown appropriately can be the difference between sitting the bench and being a star.

What other tools are you referring to? All pitchers throw different stuff, there is no one way to be considered successful. If you are speaking about scout or coach interest, that may be different.

I am not really understanding the purpose of this entire thread but it would make sense to anyone that a pitcher that throws something real special will get attention, no matter what teh pitch. You don't have to have everything to get noticed, but you have to have something that stands out to get attention.

quote:

Originally posted by Quincy:The point is that a poor hitter does not adjust to late break. Further, the initial swing is not targeted to good contact before the late break.

As an example, a batter with 'dip' in his swing will have a tendency to swing under a pitch. Should the ball drop late, it will find the bat rather than the bat finding the ball.

There’s not a lot of reason to throw anything other than a quality FB to a poor hitter to begin with because anything else will tend to speed up his bat. More often than not, a poor hitter’s bat will run into a ball, just as often because the P made a mistake than that he got lucky and swung where he thought the ball would be, but wasn’t.

quote:

Originally posted by Quincy:In my experience, a good sinker drops straight down while a splitter has a curving drop. I recall pitchers such as Tommy John who had a masterful sinker. What appeared to be a straight pitch would usually drop straight down within three feet of the plate. (usually hitting the ground before being caught).

I believe your experience needs more experience.

In my experience, a “sinker” or 2 seam FB, moves away from the glove hand and down, and a great split dives straight down. But then again, it all depends on the pitcher throwing the pitch. The split is really nothing more than a CU and there’s no reason it should break much horizontally unless there’s side spin on it.

Quincy, I’m afraid I have to agree with Bobble and TPM. Nothing at all against HS coaches, but its really rare to find one that knows a great deal about pitching. That doesn’t mean they’re stupid, but in general they don’t need polished kids with great mechanics, great command, and 3-4 quality pitches to win. It helps, but it just isn’t necessary.

Its also a very different thing to be talking about successful HS pitchers, and HS pitchers who are gonna be wooed really hard to sigh a contract.

I'm not knocking high school coaches and their talents or shortcomings.

What I am expressing is that a pitcher can become a very good pitcher if they are innovative and understand their limitations.

Also, I am trying to bring to light that a young pitcher does not have to gauge his talents on the velocity of his fast ball alone.

BTW, while a 2 seamer may drop, it is not the traditional sinker.

quote:

Originally posted by Quincy:

What I am expressing is that a pitcher can become a very good pitcher if they are innovative and understand their limitations.

I think that should be a given.

Velocity is important because pitches can be taught, velocity can't. If you don't have speed, make sure that you have some other wonderful thing to show off if you want to go further.

As mentioned, most HS coaches are not good pitching instructors and many know that. If the HS pitcher needs to develop more he needs to seek out those more qualified. The good HS coach should recognize that and give recommendations as to helping the pitcher move forward to the next level.

While it is a common sense approach to pitching, I have found that it isn't commonplace.

realistically you only need 3 good pitches in HS. 2 FBs and the CU. A third pitch would be nice but not necessary.
My son used 90+ % CBs and a 4 seamer FR. He actually had a few CBs that he perfected and because he wasn't blessed with over power velo he used the 4 seamer when appropriate. Most pitchers will use the 1st scenario. If you get to higher level HSs you might want that 3rd pitch. Most successful HS pitchers master the FB and CU. You have to throw strikes to be successful. KBs are not good for development of your arm and it requires a great deal of practice to throw strikes.

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realistically you only need 3 good pitches in HS. 2 FBs and the CU. A third pitch would be nice but not necessary.

Hmmmm.... Canadian math????

Here's a video of one of the more innovative pitches.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WFvp7kMraAw

Quote from book "The Act of Pitching"

"Speed does not equal effectiveness...

Action is the amount of movement, veer, sinking, fading of the pitch particularly in the second stage. It is measured on a scale of 0.8 (no movement, flat) to 1.5 (excellent movement).

LIVE BALL FACTOR(LBF)= ACTION x SPEED

Major league pitcher must have a LBF over 90-95,
High school over 75-80.

For example:

.9 action x 90 mph = 81 Live ball factor(LBF) means totally flat fastball

1.2 x 90 = 108 LBF(good slider with decent movement)

1.5 x 76 = 114(Koufax type CB with great movement)

1.1 x 97 =107 (a fearsome Randy Johnson type FB)

1.3 x 78 = 101 ( a Tom Glavine change-up)

Even the pitcher with a 92 mph FB is going to have trouble if he doesn't have any movement on the pitch. He may blow it by the hitters for a while, but by the second time through the order, pro hitters will tee off on it......."

TPM, how is DK's fastball action? I know its speed is over 96+ mph, right?

DK has touched 95-96. His pitch is his 2 seam with sink and late movement and can throw it at varying speeds. I think that may have helped his cause, especially with an organization that prefers GB pitchers.

quote:

Originally posted by kbat2012:
I wish to watch him play in the Busch Stadium (Or should I call it InBev stadium now ) soon.

Me too, maybe, someday......

I'll have to become a part-time Cards fan if he makes the show.