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Lets not equalize what umpires do on the field with what players do. Umpiring is important and vital but not the most important thing out there. Millions of baseball games have been played successfully without a single umpire present. No game has ever been successfully played without players.

I'm not an umpire basher by nature. I understand and appreciate what the umps do and I realize that they are human. Mistakes are made in games and umpires can only hope that when they do make a mistake that it won't affect the outcome of the game. It unfortunately does though. I give them credit for what they do, it isn't an easy job.

But people don't come out the ballfield to watch umpires officiate. They come to watch ball players make plays, both good and bad. An error made by a ballplayer is a mistake made in the process of making a play. An error made by an umpire is a mistake made while observing and making a judgement call. One is inherently active and the other is inherently passive. This doesn't diminish the importance that trained umps have in a game but it should put the perspective more in focus. Umpiring requires primarily the mental ability to recognize and make judgements. Baseball players have to have the mental ability to react and make judgements plus have the ability to physically make the play that is needed. This ability is the reason people come to the ballpark.

One last thing. If an umpire does his job right no one really knows his name. The definition of success for an umpire is much different than that of a ballplayer. If you ask the average person to name the top five ballplayers of all time you would probably get five names pretty quickly. If you ask them to name the top five umpires of all time you will get a blank stare.

It is the nature of the game and the proper nature. The focus should always be on the game and if an umpire is taking center stage on a field then it is because something is very wrong.

quote:

Originally posted by Wklink:
Umpiring requires primarily the mental ability to recognize and make judgements.

We also have to be ever vigilant for cheating and attempts by coaches and players to dishonestly influence calls. I have never umpired a baseball game where this did not occur.

What has brought about this sudden concern on the part of umpires on this site with what they term "Cheating"?

I much prefer the term "gamesmanship"

TR, it's called semantics. Gamemanship is much more palatable than cheating but when you do something against the rules to gain an advantage then cheating it is. There many examples of rules being changed or created because of players doing things that is unfair, dangerous or unsporting.
I know you were making a joke, and I got it, but it is a time honored tradition for players to stretch or break rules to win.

quote:

Originally posted by Jimmy03:
1. Ron Gardenhire gives interveiw and doesn't blame umpires!

Who wants to explain it?
How does Ron White put it? You

MST

I am not making a joke---and it is not semantics- I know many coaches and players that use gamesmanship but they do not CHEAT !!!!!

Stretching a rule is not breaking a rule---Heck you guys stretch the strike zone every game depending on the man in blue that is behind the plate. THERE ARE NOT TWO IDENTICAL STRIKE ZONES --- not to mention that the strike zone in most games moves from inning to inning--

It would be great if the coaches fraternity was as close as the umpires fraternity

quote:

Originally posted by TRhit:
MST

I am not making a joke---and it is not semantics- I know many coaches and players that use gamesmanship but they do not CHEAT !!!!!

Stretching a rule is not breaking a rule---Heck you guys stretch the strike zone every game depending on the man in blue that is behind the plate. THERE ARE NOT TWO IDENTICAL STRIKE ZONES --- not to mention that the strike zone in most games moves from inning to inning--

It would be great if the coaches fraternity was as close as the umpires fraternity

TR:

When I relate my that personal experience with umpires doesn't match yours, you make light of it.

So...you can relate your personal experience with coaches and we have to take it as Gospel?

Here's just one example I ran into at the profession at the pro level this year (MiLB Advanced A)

R1/R2....Line shot down RF line. R2, directed by 3rd base coach, cuts about eight feet off his trip "around" third by turning to home before he reaches the cut out.

Gamesmenship?

When umpires refer to cheating we are referring to our mandate of not allowing either team tp get an advantage not intended by rule. MLB has defined this as "cheating."

Feel free to operate under your own vocabulary.

quote:

Originally posted by Jimmy03:

quote:

Originally posted by TRhit:
MST

I am not making a joke---and it is not semantics- I know many coaches and players that use gamesmanship but they do not CHEAT !!!!!

Stretching a rule is not breaking a rule---Heck you guys stretch the strike zone every game depending on the man in blue that is behind the plate. THERE ARE NOT TWO IDENTICAL STRIKE ZONES --- not to mention that the strike zone in most games moves from inning to inning--

It would be great if the coaches fraternity was as close as the umpires fraternity

TR:

When I relate my that personal experience with umpires doesn't match yours, you make light of it.

So...you can relate your personal experience with coaches and we have to take it as Gospel?

Here's just one example I ran into at the profession at the pro level this year (MiLB Advanced A)

R1/R2....Line shot down RF line. R2, directed by 3rd base coach, cuts about eight feet off his trip "around" third by turning to home before he reaches the cut out.

Gamesmenship?

When umpires refer to cheating we are referring to our mandate of not allowing either team tp get an advantage not intended by rule. MLB has defined this as "cheating."

Feel free to operate under your own vocabulary.

That is kind of an easy argument to pick there....I don't know TR but I think anyone with a brain would agree that's cheating......I believe he was speaking more of the "grey area" of the game:

1st basement pulling off to meet the ball on a close play with a 2 man crew

Things like that....

Example 2:

D-iii achool that shall go nameless...
R1 and R2. Defensive skipper goes to the mound, time is called. R1/R2 jog over to chat with coach in third base box.

Defensive coach conludes trip and runners head back to bases. U3 notices, however, R1 went to second and R2 went to first. When challenged, R2 and coach insist everyone is where they belong.

R1/R2/Coach ejected.

Gamesmanship?

quote:

Originally posted by Jimmy03:

R1 and R2. Defensive skipper goes to the mound, time is called. R1/R2 jog over to chat with coach in third base box.

Defensive coach conludes trip and runners head back to bases. U3 notices, however, R1 went to second and R2 went to first. When challenged, R2 and coach insist everyone is where they belong.

R1/R2/Coach ejected.

I had the same thing a few years back. Fat kid on 2nd, road runner on 1st swapped positions after the conference broke up (they were both snickering). I had 3 ejections and also got an out for passing. A stretch of the rules? Nah - gamesmanship.

quote:

Originally posted by Jimmy03:
Example 2:

D-iii achool that shall go nameless...
R1 and R2. Defensive skipper goes to the mound, time is called. R1/R2 jog over to chat with coach in third base box.

Defensive coach conludes trip and runners head back to bases. U3 notices, however, R1 went to second and R2 went to first. When challenged, R2 and coach insist everyone is where they belong.

R1/R2/Coach ejected.

Gamesmanship?

Bush league....glad they were ejected.

I was at a summer league game a few years ago Coach goes to mound in a 1st and 2nd 1 out situation.....Offensive Coach has runners go to 2nd and 3rd after the visit.....nobody noticed (except those in the stands) until the guy at the plate got a hit on the 1st pitch and both runs scored....umps ran off the field and the play stood....sad state of youth sports.

Where were the umpires thru all this ?

quote:

Originally posted by TRhit:
Where were the umpires thru all this ?

Doing their jobs...keeping track of who belonged where and then dumping the cheating, I mean gamesmanhip playing coach and players.

I cannot see how they were doing their job if the runners were on the incorrect bases and they let the next batter hit--- and then they ran off the field

quote:

Originally posted by TRhit:
I cannot see how they were doing their job if the runners were on the incorrect bases and they let the next batter hit--- and then they ran off the field

We obviously are speaking of different events. In the one which I posted the next batter was not allowed to hit.

Same goes, apparently, for the one Dash posted. I did not read the one fan posted until you challenged my answer. I have no idea how his played out.

It would appear the umpires were not paying attention to the cheating, I mean gamesmanship playing coach. Seeing that this was a youth game, they may have been inexperienced in dealing with gamesmanship playing coaches.

quote:

Reply

As umpires we allow certain things like the F3 pulling foot a split second fast to avoid injury, what we won't allow is pulling fast to allow making an out elsewhere, that's cheating. TR, do you know why we have a rule that makes a runner out when hit by a batted ball before it gets to a fielder? It is because a very famous player would grab the ball on his way to second making it impossible to make a play. Why did NCAA,LL and FED change their obstruction rules? Because players were gaining illegal advantage and the powers to be stiffened the rules to stop it.
There are plays like the Jeter HBP/knob of the bat play that I believe TR is referring to. Or the trap/catch where the player knows full well he didn't catch it but shows the ball in his glove like he did.

quote:

There are plays like the Jeter HBP/knob of the bat play that I believe TR is referring to. Or the trap/catch where the player knows full well he didn't catch it but shows the ball in his glove like he did.

Neither of these examples/lays bother me too much as an umpire. Guys are taught to do what it takes to get on base or come up with a play. That is gamesmanship to me but I don't consder it cheating.

Having guys go to differnet bases, pitchers using substances or scuffing balls for an advantage, cork bats, steroids, that is more than gamesmanship.

Mike, that is the grey area I was referencing. The other things are cheating.

Guys, these "switch the runners" ploys blow my mind. How does a coach who does that face his fellow coaches? I mean, that is some despicable stuff.

Good question trojan, I guess the same way they do when they start picking little **** to try and upset the opposing players.

quote:

4. Fans demand meeting with MLB players in the off season. Joe Dayton of Houston, Tx, co-founder of "You're Making What?" commented, "We don't want to tell them how to do their jobs or anything, but something has to be done about the number of needless errors and the fact the the majority of them do their job correctly less than a third of the time. There are plenty of kids in the minors willing to give it try at salaries that won't raise ticket prices."

You can't compare the "success" of an umpire and that of a player. They are both out there to do a job. But players have somebody trying to beat them. An umpire does not.

quote:

Originally posted by Bulldog 19:
[QUOTE]4. Fans demand meeting with MLB players in the off season. Joe Dayton of Houston, Tx, co-founder of "You're Making What?" commented, "We don't want to tell them how to do their jobs or anything, but something has to be done about the number of needless errors and the fact the the majority of them do their job correctly less than a third of the time. There are plenty of kids in the minors willing to give it try at salaries that won't raise ticket prices."

We could debate this forever...for example, umpires, particularly the plate umpires, are involved in far more plays and have more "opportunities" per game than do players, and, someone would say the players are concerned with the other team, the umpires are concerned with everyone....

But in reality it is apples and oranges. The true comparison is, is the umpiring peforming an umpires role as well as the player is performing his role? Are they both among the best at doing their respective jobs?

There may be a AAA umpire on a given day who could perform as well or better than the bottom ranked ML umpires, just as there are some AAA players who, on a given day, could perform as well as a lower rated ML player.

No you need to compare umpires to umpires. And compare players to players. The two can't be compared to each other.

quote:

Originally posted by Bulldog 19:
No you need to compare umpires to umpires. And compare players to players. The two can't be compared to each other.

Which is what I posted. Sheeeeesh.

"The true comparison is, is the umpire peforming an umpires role as well as the player is performing his role? Are they both among the best at doing their respective jobs?"

Jimmy
I agree for the most part, but performing at the same level doesn't mean performing to the same standard....for example: I get 96.3% of my calls right and you hit .330 so I am better at my job.

For the most part if you are one of the worst 4 second basemen in MLB, you will lose your job to a younger (cheaper) player....I personally think umpires could be held to the same standard.....you are in the bottom of the league? Next man up.....or you are in the middle of the pack as a plate umpire but a horrible base umpire, we are sending you back down to the minors for more seasoning on the bases.....etc. Isn't that what happens to players who can field and not hit, etc?

quote:

Originally posted by bsballfan:
Jimmy
I agree for the most part, but performing at the same level doesn't mean performing to the same standard....for example: I get 96.3% of my calls right and you hit .330 so I am better at my job.

For the most part if you are one of the worst 4 second basemen in MLB, you will lose your job to a younger (cheaper) player....I personally think umpires could be held to the same standard.....you are in the bottom of the league? Next man up.....or you are in the middle of the pack as a plate umpire but a horrible base umpire, we are sending you back down to the minors for more seasoning on the bases.....etc. Isn't that what happens to players who can field and not hit, etc?

Please.....I did not and I will not compare an umpire to a ballplayer is skill. Never.

My point was and is the only comparison is are they both at the top of their respective fields?

That's it.

The ML umpires are, for the most part, the best umpires that exist. ML players are, for the most part, the best baseball player that exist.

In both cases, it is possible that there exist someone in the minors who might, on a given day, perform better tham the lower ranked umpire or a lower rated player.

That is not a comparison, that is a similarity based on reality.

I can't make it any clearer without drawing pictures.

quote:

Originally posted by Jimmy03:
I can't make it any clearer without drawing pictures.

Can I see the pictures?

quote:

Originally posted by Jimmy03:

quote:

Originally posted by bsballfan:
Jimmy
I agree for the most part, but performing at the same level doesn't mean performing to the same standard....for example: I get 96.3% of my calls right and you hit .330 so I am better at my job.

For the most part if you are one of the worst 4 second basemen in MLB, you will lose your job to a younger (cheaper) player....I personally think umpires could be held to the same standard.....you are in the bottom of the league? Next man up.....or you are in the middle of the pack as a plate umpire but a horrible base umpire, we are sending you back down to the minors for more seasoning on the bases.....etc. Isn't that what happens to players who can field and not hit, etc?

Please.....I did not and I will not compare an umpire to a ballplayer is skill. Never.

My point was and is the only comparison is are they both at the top of their respective fields?

That's it.

The ML umpires are, for the most part, the best umpires that exist. ML players are, for the most part, the best baseball player that exist.

In both cases, it is possible that there exist someone in the minors who might, on a given day, perform better tham the lower ranked umpire or a lower rated player.

That is not a comparison, that is a similarity based on reality.

I can't make it any clearer without drawing pictures.

How in the world did you get from my post that I thought you were?

Maybe you should be the one who reads things closer....or are you just used to getting mad and defensive without listening?

Isn't that what you accuse all of the coaches of?

quote:

Originally posted by bsballfan:
How in the world did you get from my post that I thought you were?[/quote*


How about this:

"I agree for the most part, [b]but performing at the same level doesn't mean performing to the same standard....for example: I get 96.3% of my calls right and you hit .330 so I am better at my job."

and this:

[quote] [i]"You can't compare the "success" of an umpire and that of a player. They are both out there to do a job. But players have somebody trying to beat them. An umpire does not."

quote:

or are you just used to getting mad and defensive without listening?

I never get mad...and I believe my posts prove I'm been "listening" to what you've "said."

quote:

Isn't that what you accuse all of the coaches of?

I don't accuse ALL coaches of anything...ever. I don't lump people together..of any classification.

Well. So anyway what did you think of the plate ump in the alcs game last night?
I thought his zone was amazingly consistent with exception of the occassional missed low strike for the yank pitchers, possibly explained by the fact the Rangers catcher was better at receiving the low ones than Posada.
The only "missed" calls I saw were the 2 called strikes for Wood on the Rangers Pitch hitter. Tough being a lefty lol.
First Rate.