Lawsuit filed over minor league pay

The name of the introduced legislation is unreal: http://www.sportingnews.com/ml...0g1ubcd18af2tjyb1u7l 

Here is HR 5580: https://www.congress.gov/bill/...losed&format=txt 

Although I am kind of on the fence with this entire issue, the name of the bill is upsetting.

Outrageous!

Does the lawsuit also consider that many of the teams these players are playing on are run on a day-to-day basis by individuals making the same or even less than them? MiLB is largely run by interns on game days. I know that on my summer internship I was paid with exactly one polo shirt, some meals, and $80 cash... for a summer of work. 

Bulldog 19 posted:

Does the lawsuit also consider that many of the teams these players are playing on are run on a day-to-day basis by individuals making the same or even less than them? MiLB is largely run by interns on game days. I know that on my summer internship I was paid with exactly one polo shirt, some meals, and $80 cash... for a summer of work. 

Excellent point bulldog. 

Pay in Milb is exponentially low compared with the majors.  For the amount of time players dedicate to the job; all of the hours spent training, playing, traveling etc. It works out to far below minimum wage for the 5 months they play.  And there is no question MLB is flush with cash.  But they are playing a game for a living.  And they are receiving free training by professionals everyday.  And not all the time associated with being on the job are they really working. Ultimately, if the lawsuit is successful, i feel it would hurt the very players it is supposed to help.  It would most likely limit the opportunities for boys to play professional ball, as MLB would cut back on it's Milb affiliates.  So maybe players would get more money, but there would be a lot less players being given the chance to pursue the dream. I think a pay bump to help catch up with inflation would be a fair settlement.   

"But they are playing a game for a living."

You are confusing HS, travel, and college baseball with proball. It is not a game to the players - it's a profession.  It's a job; if they don't show up they get fined or released; if they don't perform they get released.  Mom isn't preparing post-game snacks; the players pay for that PB&J post-game sandwich. Essentially you are saying, if it's a fun job, minimum wage laws don't apply.  

"And they are receiving free training by professionals everyday."

So do interns and residents doing rotation in hospitals; so do first year lawyers earning well into six figures in New York. So do new consultants working for Bain.  So what?  That excuses not following the wage laws?

"And not all the time associated with being on the job are they really working."

I don't know how you figure that they aren't working the entire time. First, virtually none of the players are living at home - so they are living and working away from home 24/7 during the season. As for not working, when I hire a person, they don't clock out while there are no customers in the store. Moreover, shagging, film, lifting and a multitude of other tasks are required; the players are required to show at a certain time each day and can't leave until a certain time. That  time is called work.

"Ultimately, if the lawsuit is successful, i feel it would hurt the very players it is supposed to help. It would most likely limit the opportunities for boys to play professional ball, as MLB would cut back on it's Milb affiliates." 

Years ago, MLB had significantly more MILB teams. Why did those teams go away? It wasn't the wages.  MLB will do whatever it takes to use as many players as each team needs.  What will drive any reduction in teams is - like other segments of the economy - technology.  New analytics make it theoretically easier to judge players MLB potential on a much smaller set of MILB stats. That means a player can be released quicker. And that has nothing to do with wages - though to make it palatable to the public, paying a player $7.75 per hour is the place where blame is deposited.

"Does the lawsuit also consider that many of the teams these players are playing on are run on a day-to-day basis by individuals making the same or even less than them?"

So if one company is violating the law, all companies can?

With all do respect to those hard working interns, each can quit and move to a team in the next town over to get better wages. Players can't.  

MLB - a 9 billion dollar biz - has succeeded in off loading the player overhead to players (either through parents or living off the bonus), requiring players to work all year long (while paying them ONLY for the season [not even spring training]), not allowing players to move to another team to advance a career or for better development.

What a racket! And then MLB winds up its subservient organization - MILB - to lobby congress using the misleading information that paying MINIMUM WAGE would bankrupt some MILB teams. What a crock - MLB pays the players not MILB.

Adding insult to injury, this bill is one of the very few that has bipartisan support. 

What are the unintended consequences if the lawsuit is won?

For the record, I'm just rambling off the top of my head. Here are some possible scenarios...

1. MLB will not want to afford higher minor league salaries, forcing the teams to incur some of the expense. As a result, owners pull out of ownership. Fewer minor league affiliates overall - thus leading to...

2. The draft is further reduced in rounds. Maybe down to 25

3. More reliance on college ball, free agent signings, and the Indy leagues as a feeder system, and fewer short A teams

4. Where do the Rookie League teams go: the Caribbean, Argentina, Venezuela, etc...

Again, just rambling.

Goosegg posted:

"Does the lawsuit also consider that many of the teams these players are playing on are run on a day-to-day basis by individuals making the same or even less than them?"

So if one company is violating the law, all companies can?

With all do respect to those hard working interns, each can quit and move to a team in the next town over to get better wages. Players can't.  

MLB - a 9 billion dollar biz - has succeeded in off loading the player overhead to players (either through parents or living off the bonus), requiring players to work all year long (while paying them ONLY for the season [not even spring training]), not allowing players to move to another team to advance a career or for better development.

What a racket! And then MLB winds up its subservient organization - MILB - to lobby congress using the misleading information that paying MINIMUM WAGE would bankrupt some MILB teams. What a crock - MLB pays the players not MILB.

Adding insult to injury, this bill is one of the very few that has bipartisan support. 

I asked the question: does this lawsuit include the interns working for these teams and if not, why doesn't it? 

Bulldog 19 posted:

Goosegg posted:

"Does the lawsuit also consider that many of the teams these players are playing on are run on a day-to-day basis by individuals making the same or even less than them?"

So if one company is violating the law, all companies can?

With all do respect to those hard working interns, each can quit and move to a team in the next town over to get better wages. Players can't.  

MLB - a 9 billion dollar biz - has succeeded in off loading the player overhead to players (either through parents or living off the bonus), requiring players to work all year long (while paying them ONLY for the season [not even spring training]), not allowing players to move to another team to advance a career or for better development.

What a racket! And then MLB winds up its subservient organization - MILB - to lobby congress using the misleading information that paying MINIMUM WAGE would bankrupt some MILB teams. What a crock - MLB pays the players not MILB.

Adding insult to injury, this bill is one of the very few that has bipartisan support. 

I asked the question: does this lawsuit include the interns working for these teams and if not, why doesn't it? 

They were both answered in that response. 

It's a given that the MiLB salaries are paid by the club. For the non-players working in MiLB, it's a business model issue.

Roughly 300 MiLB players in an organization? Let's use that number, and an average monthly salary of $1700. $500K in salary per month to carry MiLB players in the budget.

Let's say that miraculously there's a new wage scale based on the forthcoming $15/hour minimum wage, and it's for 8 hours per day, working 28 days each month.  Works out to be roughly $3400 average monthly salary. Double the current pay. 

Can the club go from $3MM in MiLB player salary to $6MM? Is that a budget killer? Should a club cover that additional $3MM per year to prevent lawsuits, prevent dopey legislation that can backfire, prevent counter-legislation, and maintain federal antitrust status? An additional $3MM/year is a good deal.

Someone mentioned some time back that MLB ought to simply bump MiLB salaries and try to make this go away.  There was a gross amount presented and the dollars involved where not that substantial.  The idea that learning how to live on almost nothing has something to do with development seems flawed.  Not sure what the worst case is, but there are stories about clubhouse dues and getting BP&J in return, state taxes (and presumably having to file in multiple states to get your refund) and other necessary expenses (bats?) where some of these lower level guys are getting squeezed.  Other teams apparently provide much better resources providing significant meals and help with lodging.  I'm not saying every MiLB player should be able to afford their own luxury apartment, but maybe the salaries should be increased just enough so that they don't have to resort to air mattresses.  No representation and having to sign up for 7 years - as the only avenue to chase this dream - just seems too draconian.  

As I understand the recent change in wage law, making MiLB subject to the full spectrum of laws/regulations could be problematic.  They cannot be deemed "salaried" as they make below the threshold for an exempt worker and actually logging hours seems very problematic and kind of stupid.  

As for interns, if they have a complaint about wages, they should pursue that separately.  I can only assume that their specific conditions are quite different from a MiLB player and therefore requires a separate and distinct argument.  Not that they don't have an argument, but simply a different argument. 

2017LHPscrewball posted:

As for interns, if they have a complaint about wages, they should pursue that separately.  I can only assume that their specific conditions are quite different from a MiLB player and therefore requires a separate and distinct argument.  Not that they don't have an argument, but simply a different argument. 

It's not an argument, but a choice: take it or leave it. Until demand dies down, an MiLB club owner pays what the market bears.

A career on the business side of professional sports needs to include a degree in some quantitative field (preferably from a major university), and intern work in the home office. A career starting at the minor league level and working your way up to the majors is an antiquated notion.

Not sure what the laws are, but we have to pay interns at least minimum wage.  Not that it has anything to do with what minor league players are paid.

Well, somebody or somebodies opened her eyes:

After hearing from you & learning more in the last 24 hours, I've immediately withdrawn my support from H.R. 5580: https://t.co/Oz0eg8g5dj

— Rep. Cheri Bustos (@RepCheri) June 30, 2016

There is nothing problematic with figuring out how many hours a player works - wage and hour laws have been around for a long time and virtually every dodge has been tried by employers. There are well established rules on compensation while traveling, working away from the city a player is assigned, etc. 

Any rationalization that a worker who works 60/61 days (not as someone posted 28 days a month) somehow should not receive minimum wage because his BOSS cant figure it out is poppycock.  Players just dont show up when they feel like it; they are told EVERY day when to arrive, what to do, and sometimes even how to do it.

Yes, the player who has a dream, and who cant afford decent food, furniture, a normal rental, or a car should pay for the billionaire's featherbed - because the billionaire somehow, someway isnt supposed to pay these adult players the princely sum of $7.75 per hour.  (I bet the lobbyist who wrote the bill gets a wee bit more than that per hour.)

Goosegg - I think I am on your side, just wondering how a true hourly wage would work.  Would each player get paid based on their actual hours or should there be one set of hours for all players?  What if you are having some soreness and need to come in 1-2 hours early to get some treatment - do those hours go into the total for the week?  If that is the case and I was a struggling MiLB player, I think I might need some treatment every now and then so I could go out to dinner.  Would all the other restrictions apply including overtime (including any hours in excess of 8 hr per day in California)?  Would individual state minimums apply when playing away games (assuming state/city has its own minimum)?   Do you want to see a straight up actual time card minimum wage or would you be open to some move towards an approximation of the time with an increase in the "salary" that might be 90%+ of what the actual hours might dictate?

Some player with the San Jose Giants is going the be getting $10/hr plus lots of OT when the days go over 8 hours while the poor guy with the Durham Bulls is only going to pull down $7.25 - and if he is a starting pitcher, they might just let him stay home one or two nights a week to keep him under 40 hours.  I realize this is a stupid example, but an example nonetheless.

What the minor leaguers need is the right to collectively bargain for themselves.  

They don't need an hourly wage.  But they need a wage that reflects their true worth as a collective body.   They should be compensated not just for the time they put in on the field, but for the time they put in off season, staying ready and in shape.   

The problem with them is that for the most part they are a transient workforce, here today gone tomorrow or at most the day after tomorrow.  Taken one by one, they are highly vulnerable, because highly replaceable, and totally devoid of labor mobility. 

The only way in heck that they can possibly be more adequately compensated is by standing together. 

This is tricky though.   The bonus babies have little real incentive to stand in solidarity with the canon fodder guys -- just as major leaguers have little real incentive to stand in solidarity with the minor leaguers.   (I mean the major league player association obviously routinely sells minor leaguers down the river for their own benefit.)

An attitude adjustment among players is the real ticket -- they are a band of brothers, who have each others backs at all stages of the journey -- together with the power to form a union of their own. 

The issue of accurately recording hours is a problem for the employer; it is never an excuse not to pay minimum wage.  If administrative problems in recording time were an excuse, many employers would find refuge in that safe harbor.  As for various minimum wages depending on where a player is located, that is an issue well settled in employment law.  The minimum wage laws are not designed to be imposed only when its easy for the employer; the minimum wage laws are a statement by society of public policy - if a business is subject to the law,  it must comply. 

MLB isnt really arguing difficulty; MLB is arguing it's exempt from paying minimim wage due to an exception to the minimum wage laws for seasonal businesses (think summer camp counselors).  And yes, if an employee works more than 40 per week, overtime would be required. 

An attitude adjustment among players is the real ticket -- they are a band of brothers, who have each others backs at all stages of the journey -- together with the power to form a union of their own. 

They've got to unionize overnight so most of them don't get dumped halfway through the process.  What I was hoping for from the lawsuit (just my simple opinion with no real knowledge of the true inner workings) is that MLB would try to make things right, or simply a lot better than as it stands today, in an effort to make the issue go away.  Having the players themselves speak out is asking a lot of these individuals.  Maybe 1/3 have their bonus or some realistic shot at moving up and don't want to make waves.  Another 1/3rd is really just happy to stick around knowing they are sitting on the cut line.  The remaining 1/3rd is looking at the other 2/3rds sitting on the sidelines thinking they will get hung out to dry if they speak up.  

"An attitude adjustment among players is the real ticket -- they are a band of brothers, who have each others backs at all stages of the journey -- together with the power to form a union of their own."

Yes, that is what is needed. But milb players, imo, are not a band of brothers. There were bands of brothers in college and HS; its more like a shark tank in proball. That doesnt mean fast and life long friends arent made, but there is little team cohesion.  Relievers are in one tribe, starting pitchers in another, and position players in a third.  Each member of a tribe is focused on their indivual struggles with no time left to create a union.

Goosegg posted:

"An attitude adjustment among players is the real ticket -- they are a band of brothers, who have each others backs at all stages of the journey -- together with the power to form a union of their own."

Yes, that is what is needed. But milb players, imo, are not a band of brothers. There were bands of brothers in college and HS; its more like a shark tank in proball. That doesnt mean fast and life long friends arent made, but there is little team cohesion.  Relievers are in one tribe, starting pitchers in another, and position players in a third.  Each member of a tribe is focused on their indivual struggles with no time left to create a union.

Understood.  But if that is the attitude, they lose.  Period.   I once heard LeBron James, who is Vice President of the NBA's Player's Association,  talking about why he and many other superstars of the NBA were  strong union guys.   His answer  "The NBA is a band of brothers.  We have each other's backs."   Sure they all have individual goals that compete.  I mean they can't all find spots on the 40 man or the 25 man.  That's dog eat dog.  But in terms of negotiating with management, especially over basic working conditions,  there is a ton to be gained from standing together and very little to be gained from a "I've got mine, you get yours"  attitude. 

This is only going to happen through federal legislation, or the threat of federal legislation.

Both congressional co-sponsors of the bill had received MLB campaign money.

Here is MLB's press release:

http://m.mlb.com/news/article/187167466.  

It compares MILB players to artists and actors - short term apprenticeships. Conveniently ignoring the KEY fact that those professions don't bind the employee for multiple years, with 24/7/365 obligations. (MILB has taken the position that because the contracts are for multiple years, players cannot even get unemployment benefits if the off-season [as other season employees can, like life guards or ski instructors).)

For those who don't know, the MILB contract has year round obligations for a player. Those obligations range from daily (must be available for off-season drug testing - even on vacation [must notify drug testing people if you leave town for 24 hours]), to virtually daily (must maintain good physical conditioning; clubs generally provide a framework of workouts), to multiple times per week requirements (e.g., throwing and long toss for pitchers - again clubs generally provide the program desired), to specific prohibitions (e.g., basketball, skiing, etc.).  The players do not get paid - or receive reimbursement - for complying.

For those who don't know, players do not get paid for spring training; players receive two hots, a cot and $25 a day.

For those who don't know, players pay - from their $1,000 - $1,500 per month draft contract salary - about 10% in club house dues (for that PB&J sandwich and an orange slice), $350 in rent (which may or may not include food), 10% in FICA and Medicare. They do receive a per diem of about 25$ while on the road.  Players supply their own shoes (exercise and game) and gloves. Gloves maybe last a season; a player goes through multiple pairs of shoes.  Players who play games in multiple states file multiple state tax returns (thank god for parents on that one).

The first few years, host families are generally available. After that, the players rent unfurnished apartments - using parents or the remainder of their salaries to buy air mattresses, kitchen ware, etc. 

A person living on the Federal minimum wage can't make it; how could someone earning half of the wage do that?

My understanding is that interns dont work for the team but for the owners of the affiliate.  

I dont think son ever ate pb and j he actually ate well, and those meals are provided and paid for by the affiliate.  If the affiliate cant fill the stands, or have sponsers they need to do a better job.

Anyway, goosegg is on target for hours and job requirements. Its not glamorous, bonus money is important.

Here is a mind boggling thought. MLB players get approx 100 per diem for spring training and other perks as well. All 40 men on roster. Great for the guys who will be sent back down, but many of these ML guys do not need it.  Figure that out per day and how many weeks!  

FWIW Albert Pujols, when with the cardinaks used his money to help subsidize milb meals at the field.

MLB Argues That Minor Leaguers Are Creatives, Like Artists And Musicians... WTF?!?! Are you kidding me MLB...?

http://deadspin.com/mlb-argues...like-arti-1782927981

One hitch that could come up, all milb players are contracted.  

Goosegg, do you think that they will use this as argument?

I hope the MLB loses the case for many reasons. 

fanofgame posted:

I hope the MLB loses the case for many reasons. 

While I agree I believe that if it happens, there will be less opportunities for those that have them now.

fanofgame posted:

I hope the MLB loses the case for many reasons. 

I'm wondering if Rob Manfred is thinking that Bud Selig left him a big, steaming pile of you know what. 

Is that the same pile that has been dumped on the MiLB players for 100 years?  Might need a whole herd of Brontosauras for that...