Lead off routine

we go left- right - left - open up. but again we dont make robots - the goal is getting the right distance, at the right time and not getting picked off. if a kid feels more comfortable shuffling or slide stepping we let them. we put cones at all the bases during practice and intrasquad marking where we want primary and secondary leads to be. steve
http://www.leaguelineup.com/raiderbaseball

what distance do you look for raider? And do you mean from the bag or lead foot? I see different people say different ones. .Of course this makes a big difference. How about secondary's? I tell my kids left right left also..Then a few shuffles. Secondary is just two shuffles for me..Have worked under a coach who wanted kids to get there secondaries opened up like they were running to the next bag on there front foot.He really seamed to keep opponents on there toes and could get back just as good as in a normal secondary.

1st base 10 to 12 feet, secondary shuffle with right foot hitting as ball hits mitt.
2nd base - 12-15 feet, secondary 18-20 with right foot hitting as ball hits mitt.
3rd base - 3 step lead, hit on right foot facing plate as ball enters hitting zone.
thats in a ideal world. steve
ideal raider world can be found:
http://www.leaguelineup.com/raiderbaseball

same here..Would like to get them all to 12ft,but the kid has to be quick and then i hate for them to feel defensive. I've checked out your site. Have actually started my own after looking at yours.

im just sharing in hopes of learning.
steve

We take a five step lead at first base. Starting with both heels on the bag: 1)step with right foot, 2)step with left foot, 3)pivot on ball left foot(turning shoulders paralell to baseline) while stepping with right foot, 4)shuffle, and 5)shuffle again.
At second we add a third shuffle to take a six step lead.
At third we take a five step lead when the pitcher is in the stretch and a walking lead when he is winding up.
All leads may be adjusted based on factors like baserunner's quickness, pitcher's move, right or left handed pitcher, etc.

ryno23
we are very similar to you except at third where we take a walking lead no matter if he is in the stretch or windup.
i actually teach to shorten your last shuffle if you are stealing so you can feel comfortable and get a one way lead.
with a lefty we get an extra shuffle, if not stealing we are leaning back to first- then secondary lead, if we are stealing we are going on 1st movement (with the extra lead) and we are going straight to the bag even on a pickoff attempt. we will still make it to 2nd 7 out of 10 times on a pick.

What I'm trying to develop here is a consistent 1o foot lead (pitchers have quicker pickoff moves at the college age) so I'm trying to develop a step by step routine, that is, how many steps exactly will get me to 10 feet. As far as I know, the first step should be your left foot corssing behind your right foot, but after that I don't know whether to shuffle, or take 'steps' by bringing left foot against my right foot and then sticking my right foot out. Should I just get the tape measure out?

We have developed a reputation for stealing bases and, in fact, stole 234 bases one year as a team. Currently, we are trying to get the IHSA to recognize this. Our lead off is geard to the fact that teams throw over often. We go right-left pivot. Read pitcher. (This is because we typically have teams throw over to try to catch us getting off of the base. In particular one area team will throw over at least 10 times in a game trying to catch us taking our lead.) Then, we go shuffle, shuffle, shuffle. We went to several clinics and we have moved away from the cross over first step. We watch video of players like Ricky Henderson and each time, he jab stepped with his right foot on his break. We do this now. BTW, we are also lined up so that our hand comes in on the back side of 1st base. This makes it harder to get tagged. Of course many will argue that this adds a step getting to 2nd. I don't buy that. That's our routine. Works for us but might not work for you.

we also get a short walking lead at 3rd no matter stretch or windup. at second we probably dont get as much on our primary lead as most people. we want the pitcher to forget about us. we can be more aggressive on our secondary if we dont have to worry about a pick and we can also slip in a steal of third. our baserunners are on their on at 2b as far as stealing 3rd goes. we just try to teach when it is a good time and when it is a bad time. like i said earlier we teach left/right/left open up at 1st. but we are more concerned about them just getting out there where they're suppose to be quick. if they feel more comfortable not crossing their feet and sliding to 10-12 feet thats fine.
steve
http://www.leaguelineup.com/raiderbaseball

both heels on the bag getting signals then we go right, left, open up(swing around) with right, shuffle shuffle (some will get one more shuffle
wee get our lead from the front side of the bag (angle looks like a shorter lead) but we go back to the back corner (last place a tag reaches)
no one comented on our approach about a lefthander. comments arguments????

catamount36, we almost always go on first move against lefties on a pitch that I select. We were not thrown out last year doing this. Now we take educated guess when we decide to go. I've heard all of the arguments. In my opinion, I want the pitcher to "stork" and throw over. They never get us when this happens.

We have a technique i'll go ahead and share in case it might help someone. I know a-lot of you may already use it or or one close, but here it goes anyways. At second base we employ a technique exclusively off a pitchers # of looks and time between that and his kick to deliver the ball. We get a normal lead of 12-15 ft at second, but try and not draw undo attention to ourselves. We also have a recorder plus myself that watch the pitcher and how long he takes in the stretch before delivery and how many looks he NORMALLY gives to the runner at second base. We then wait until the pitcher starts his head turn..We immediatly begin to shuffle as he turns his head(head even and breaking third on the turn ensures he doesn't see you). We take long balanced shuffles using our arms to gain extra distance as we do this. We look to break as soon as we see leg lift. We hope to gain 10 ft with our shuffles(=25-30 foot lead with momentum). We obviously need our coaches to watch the middle infielders closely. We look for flashed gloves, calls, or movement toward the bag while shuffling. The shuffle ensures ability to get back. In three years as a head coach we have stolen third close to 100 times and never been picked off. We have been thrown out when using this technique....once! I believe in great pressure and have used this pressure and ability to bunt with average hitters to win 14 playoff games and make one state tourney in the last three years.

I teach my boys that a lead off of 1st, is a minimum body length and a half. They lead off in a straight line towards 2nd base. They NEVER EVER CROSS OVER!! They use side to side steps, getting out to they're maxiumim lead before the pitcher gets into his set. Always balanced with hands out in front of their body.

Coachb25....we teach our pitcher to pick runners if they cross over on their second or third step.

catmount36....we do the same with LHP. We take a jab step back toward first if not stealing. If we are stealing we are going first movement. I feel we can make up the jab step with our secondary lead. I am thinking about doing this with right handed pitchers as well. What do you guys think would be the advantages or disadvantages of doing this with a RHP? We put a lot of pressure on teams running the bases with the slowest team I have ever had, but one thing that they did do well was to read balls in the dirt.

Maybe this need to be another thread, but do you and how do you teach reading balls in the dirt?

I've re read my post and I don't see anywhere where I said that we crossed over. Maybe I'm not thinking clearly. We never crossover.

Sorry, I was not saying you crossed over. I was just agreeing with the fact it is not good to cross over because that is when many pithcers try to pick.

From a pitching stand point for you guys that go left, right, left......We feel like that if a runner is three steps off first with his left foot forward, we have a great chance to pick that runner off.

i don't know about right handers??? hadn't thought about it,,, but why not go on 1st move also. the only thing i can think of is that a right hander don't hang, or your not going to make him balk, or he is not going to see you take off and hurry his delivery. on the positive side. you still get a good jump, the 1st baseman still has to throw the ball to the SS and he has to catch and tag. i will have to think on this more.
we also read balls in the dirt and it is an automatic GO for my guys (with maybe an exception here or there (the 7.9 60 guys ha ha)

We teach our kids to always face and be focused on the pitcher when taking a lead. We go sideways and take 3 large steps and a short shuffle. This should allow for one step and dive. This distance may vary depending upon whether we are taking a one way or two way lead.
As for our pitchers, they are taught to use a pre-set pick if he sees any runner taking a lead with his back to the bag. It is very difficult to go back quickly if you have your back to the bag.

At the higher levels, are we supposed to take one step then dive back on pickoffs, or just dive from where you're crouched? I haven't really been paying attention to this on TV when I watch games, what do the major leaguers do?
Or does this relly depend on how fast/slow the pickoff move is?

im the one that said we crossover taking 3 steps at 1b. we've been picked standing out there daydreaming but never in our steps. but if a kid is more comfortable shuffling off thats fine. as long as they get 10-12 feet. that being said we teach our pitchers to look for someone stepping off and pick. i know univ. of tenn at one time took a jab step back against lefties. we've talked about it but never have put that in as a rule. steve
http://www.leaguelineup.com/raiderbaseball

On the defensive side.....since most teams are running first move with lefties on the mound..... They were even going first move in the Astro's game last night.

Anyway, do you guys think it would be easier to teach your LHP to throw to second than to throw to first and then have your first baseman throw to second. I am thinking it will be easier.

I guess this is the second part. I do not think this will be a balk, since you are making a play at second, even though second base may be unoccupied. Maybe you guys do this already, but I have not seen it in my part of the woods. I have seen this at third with RHP on the mound.

wouldn't be bad idea to try..1/2 sure some official would call us on a balk.

The problem you might run into with this play would be that a smart runner will simulate a hard run to second and draw a balk from the pitcher. Lefties usually and should attempt to keep their mechanics the same for a pitch and a pick as much as possible watching for the runner to move and thinking about throwing to second will prevent this.

quote:

Originally posted by d8:
On the defensive side.....since most teams are running first move with lefties on the mound..... They were even going first move in the Astro's game last night.

Anyway, do you guys think it would be easier to teach your LHP to throw to second than to throw to first and then have your first baseman throw to second. I am thinking it will be easier.

I guess this is the second part. I do not think this will be a balk, since you are making a play at second, even though second base may be unoccupied. Maybe you guys do this already, but I have not seen it in my part of the woods. I have seen this at third with RHP on the mound.

That will be a balk. NO question that the base is unoccupied and besides, people that teach the stork move have ingrained the move. Countless hours have been spent refining it. A pitcher would not be able to think quickly enough to pull that one off. They will simply stork, step and the throw. JMHO!

hsballcoach.....I think you are prob. right. It would be fairly easy to draw a balk if you figured the pitcher would do that.

coachb25....not trying to argue, but the way the rule is read and applied here if a runner is advancing to a bag, there is now a play at that bag and the pitcher can throw to that bag.

Just out of curiosity I will put this question in the umpire forum.

1st and 3rd with a rhp early steal we step off and throw to the 2bman who comes straight up from his position into the baseline trying to get the early tag before runner on 3rd can break. thats not a balk - we arent even throwing to a base but in between bases.
steve
http://www.leaguelineup.com/raiderbaseball

quote:

Originally posted by raiderbb:
1st and 3rd with a rhp early steal we step off and throw to the 2bman who comes straight up from his position into the baseline trying to get the early tag before runner on 3rd can break. thats not a balk - we arent even throwing to a base but in between bases.
steve

That is how we defend it if we think they are running the play. We hold then step off fast. The runner will break and we can throw the ball to either 2nd or 1st.