leaving pitchers in/taking them out

Sometimes it’s the things you listed. Sometimes pitching coaches don’t know what they’re doing.

My son’s high school coach once wanted him to take the mound and have him close coming from shortstop on a  twenty-something wind chill day without warming up.

They were still up six runs with two runners on. He gave the coach an incredulous look. He then asked to be pulled from the game to get warmed up on the sideline, then recenter the game. High school has one time free substitution.

His coach developed a reputation of going too long with starters. The next day my son had a talk with the coach about informing him he might enter in the middle of the next inning so he could warmup while their team is hitting. He added he preferred to enter at the start of the inning.

@anotherparent posted:

I'm curious what the thought-process is.

It's hard to say.

How many pitches were thrown?

But I agree that usually the coach has no clue about game management.

JMO

When my son was in college they would often leave the starter in too long.....to the point that the rest of the team was so down that the game was basically over.   A college team has enough pitchers that I don't understand how you don't always "play to win" meaning even if it's 4-0 in the first inning it's time to make a change.   I get it....no game is ever truly over....but 8-0 after the top of the 1st makes it real tough to get the guys excited and feeling like it's a winnable game.

@anotherparent posted:

I've seen many games where it seemed that the pitcher should come out, but he is left in.  Often bad things happen.  Last weekend I saw a game in which a pitcher gave up something like 7 runs, which basically put the game out of reach.  This happens from little league to college (and the pros?).

Obviously I know there is a lot to these decisions:  are the backups worse?  do you need this guy to eat innings or get the experience?  is it a non-conference game so you don't care?  is no-one else warmed up? is it that there are 2 outs and you are just hoping he can get the third?

I'm curious what the thought-process is.

Interesting question.  I've been on the other end of this question for many years.

I've always wondered why coaches take pitchers out after they've done what they needed to do (ground ball that should have been a double play) and the position player screws it up.   I"m referencing multiple errors, and continues to struggle in a game.   Rather than take the pitcher out, why not take the position player out?  It still drives me bat $hit crazy, and probably my biggest pet peeve.

Yes, I realize there are more pitchers than position players, so don't go there.  I'm talking about egregious fielding and hitting.   Some players that deserve to come out, never do no matter the situation.

Okay, I'm going to put the mouse and keyboard down and walk away from this thread.  Exhale.

At the lower levels there isn't always a suitable replacement. A HS coach may leave a D1 commit out there because he has a better chance of getting out of a jam than the next kid coming in who only throws 81 - especially after they've been seeing 92 with good offspeed all game.

There were times in HS where mine were on the mound and I could tell they didn't have it in the later innings. As long as pitch count was not an issue they were typically left in. The oldest pitched into extra innings of a state game. He was left in with bases loaded no outs in the 8th. He got out of it. His coach told him he would rather lose with him than lose with the first relief guy and think what if.

In college it happens way too often and I have no idea why. The only bad answers I can give are coaches are inept and coaches would rather lose their way with "their guys" than put the end of the bench in. How many times do you see kids getting opportunities that don't deserve it? How many times are kids not given a chance to prove themselves?

There are a myriad of reasons that some decisions about changing pitchers (or not) seem to not make sense. In my experience, the game management of the pitching staff is usually controlled by the HC. Not always - but usually. IMO, the HCs that do the best job managing pitching staffs (in game) were almost always pitchers when they were players. Many HCs (that were not pitchers) don’t like pitchers, and don’t understand their routines, wants, and needs. HCs like this often manage a game by feel and don’t follow a script. This only works when/if the HC knows his pitchers as well as the PC does. And that is rarely the case. I say all that to make this point - don’t assume that the PC is behind the decisions that you don’t like/understand. He may well not be.
  As far as pitching changes go - as any game unfolds the situation (in terms of who you want on the mound) can change pitch by pitch. It helps if you have a lot of depth in the bullpen. When you don’t it can lead to some decisions that seem strange. Every pitcher isn’t at the same place in time (in terms of his health) and some are on strict pitch counts. No matter how he is performing in a game he is out when he hits his number. Sometimes you want a relief pitcher to match up with one specific hitter. Sometimes you want a reliever that gets a lot of ground balls. Either way, guys like that (that have a certain role) tend to be in the game to diffuse a situation. When the situation is over, whether they were successful or not, their job is done and they often come out of the game. To the casual fan this may not make sense. Also, whoever is on the mound in any part of a meaningful game has earned some amount of trust from the PC and the HC. But the amounts of trust vary from player to player. And from coach to coach. It’s also impossible for the fans/families to know what’s going on with every player on the team. Things like grades, behavior, minor injuries, family events, mental health, etc. all come into play as far as who is available to pitch in any game. It’s easy to second guess from the stands with limited information. But unless you are part of the team your information will always be limited.
  Now having said all that, sometimes you just see bad decisions made. Things happen fast and communication isn’t always the best.

Was questioning this myself last night at my son's game. They played a school that was preseason D1 top 25. It was their horse that started against us last night. Kid had a good first inning and then got absolutely shelled the next two innings. Gave up 4 HR's and 9 runs total before getting out of the 3rd and ending his night. Their coach did something similar with the next guy in. Gave up 6 runs, 2 HR's, 8 hits total over the next 2.2 innings. Someone in the stands even commented on if they had any other pitchers or if their coach was just making them sacrificial lambs today. Kind of felt bad for the pitchers.

@ARCEKU21 I am just wondering if that was their ace, why was he pitching on a Tuesday night?

Because they were playing a good team.  I don’t understand leaving him in though. Pull him so that he could still be used on the weekend. I see a lot of coaches that are slow to divert from their original game plan. There are just days a guy doesn’t have it.

Arceku21:

Who is calling the pitches?    The catcher or a Coach.

Are the pitches "high in the zone"? Is the opposing team left handed or right handed hitters.

Was there a "scouting report" available?

Bob

I am not a fan of playing weekend starters during weekdays. It can mess up their routine.

Use your freshman to get needed experience for conference play.

JMO

@baseballhs posted:

Because they were playing a good team.  I don’t understand leaving him in though. Pull him so that he could still be used on the weekend. I see a lot of coaches that are slow to divert from their original game plan. There are just days a guy doesn’t have it.

This is exactly why their #1 was pitching, because of the team they were playing against. They had pulled him early from his start the weekend before so that he could throw against my son's team.

But like others have said, why leave him out their to just get banged around? I would have pulled him during that second inning when balls were flying.

And then there's the sweeper mania. . . .

Meister, director of the Texas Metroplex Institute for Sports Medicine, acknowledges the dangers velocity poses. But, he said, “spin is worse.”

The sweeper puts tremendous stress on the inner elbow, Meister said. The power “movement” changeup, as Meister calls it, also puts inordinate strain on the arm. “And to throw these pitches,” he said, “you have to squeeze the crap out of the baseball.”....

“We’re seeing all these tears in the lat and teres, all these tears of the previously reconstructed ligament, a lot more flexor-tendon tears,” Meister said. “I can tell you it is a consequence of predominantly those two pitches — the sweeping slider and these hard movement changeups.”

I attached the article from The Athletic.

I was fortunate in that I rarely, if ever, faced this situation.  However, my thoughts on observing this is simple.  "Never kill the kid in the kid."  IOWs, there is a point where nothing positive can happen for the pitcher who can not get outs so don't leave him out there to rot. 

Many programs just don't have a lot of good depth and so the coach says to himself "either he gets through 7 to my two good relievers or he doesn't make it and eats the loss".

Also you are managing for a season and not just for a game. If you empty the pen  in every game you blow your pen halfway through the season so sometimes you just hope the starter makes it through one more inning even though you really should take him out already.