Legion Ball or travel

Travel ball will always be more competetive at all levels. The ability to hand pick a team of specialized players from an area far surpassing school or district boundaries is the difference between night and day. There is a reason why schools and legion ball have boudary or size limits- that is to keep the talent relatively equal. 5A Schools will smoke 1A scools 9 out of 10 times because they have a greater quantity of talent to choose from.

For instance, in our area we have about 12-15 high schools that compete against each other. But, here is the big but, the elite travel 14u teams around our area could smoke most of the varsity HS teams because they pool from a much bigger area and have no weak links on the team. Travel teams also generally have fewer players which get more at-bats and more defensive play in the field. Travel teams also play other travel teams loaded with like talent whereas legion teams are made up of a myriad of different grades of talent which when put together doesn't necessarily equal success.

My advice- stick with travel ball as long as you can, the talent is far greater and the players will get more playing time against better talent.

That was my thoughts as well. I think the coaches for our team all played legion ball as kids. (Of course I dont think travel baseball was anything close to what it is now)

First 13U is an ugly year of baseball. When you aren't playing good travel teams it's like watching Godzilla versus Bambi run by Coach Daddy who knows less baseball than he thinks.

You will see a lot of weak competition in 13U and 14U travel. These are field transition years where there are many teams until players and their parents come to realize they aren't players. Worse, I found 13U Junior Legion and 14/15U Junior Legion brutal to watch.

I'm assuming you mean Junior Legion, not Legion at 13U. Pre high school travel ball will typically have a kid more prepared for high school ball. But it's more than just the travel label. There are weak, poorly coached travel teams. It's important to be on a well coached team with quality instruction. Good travel teams are still around with the final eight teams on Sunday and typically facing challenging pitching. There's your difference. I found the top 14U travel pitchers to throw as hard as many high school pitchers.

The simple response: I'd rather my son be playing SATB and Ripken than Junior Legion. Oh that's right! He did along with ECTB and Berkshire. Now Cust has a great facility.

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Originally posted by DenJake:
That was my thoughts as well. I think the coaches for our team all played legion ball as kids. (Of course I dont think travel baseball was anything close to what it is now)

Travel has become "me too." There are a lot of bad 13U and 14U travel baseball teams. When my son was 14U one team was 0-26 with 23 mercies before they gave up and played .500 ball in a rec league. The coach was raving to me about one of their opponents we beat 17-0. It gets much better after 14U when a lot of former LL all-stars realize they aren't baseball players.

RJM...You are correct. We do encounter some weak teams but by the team you narrow the field to the top 8 we usually run into some very good competetion. Our team has not lost yet this year, so finding a good game is sometimes hard to do. I just dont think switching from Ripken, SATB and the travel league we are in to jr. legion will offer better competetion then what we are seeing. But honestly I dont know because I have never seen a jr. legion game....Thanks for the responses

I don't know about the rest of you guys but our 14u division is insane this year. The talent is staggering to say the least! Most of the teams we have played have some absolute studs on the team, with a few teams where every player is a stud. There are a few weak teams in our league but most of the teams we have played have talent on par with hs varsity level at most schools.

Several pitchers in our 14u division we have seen or played against are throwing in the 80-85 mph range, and for 14u, thats heat! Our pitchers on our team hover around the high 70's flirting with 80 at times and we are average with most teams we have played against. In our league there hasn't been as many hard throwing pitchers in the 14u division in quite a few years as this years has. It wouldn't surprise me at all to see a lot of college reruiters and scouts a few years from now as these kids go on into HS. I guess it happens- a myriad of hard throwers in a small geographic area, just hope all these hurlers can keep their arms healthy.

13U is the "The year".

The year that:

- Monster studs who used size and strength to out muscle the small field start to realize it's different. Those "monster" 250ft HR's from LL are now routine fly balls.

- Kids that were shrimps are just starting to hit their growth spurts and since they always had good fundamentals, they are already catching up and surpassing other kids.

- Parents start to realize it may be the end of the baseball "journey" for many of their kids. It's not just ability at this age. There is also size, and a million other things that kid might rather be doing than playing baseball.

- Coaches that didn't realize that anyone could pick 12 good players and do very well on the small field, are now confused why their teams constantly get beat by teams they used to beat all the time.

- Those same coaches try to apply "small field strategy" to the real field. And of course it doesn't work.

It's a tough transition year all around.

My pitchers (13U) are finally starting to realize that that blowing the fastball by good hitters at 13U / 60'6" isn't likely to happen. It's not about missing the bat, it's about missing the FAT part of the bat...and that's where defense comes into play.

I see many kids who where "Groomed" for one position, who now can't perform that job on the big field, and are having to try and catch up by learning other spots / duties. Now some parents understand why I moved kids into so many different spots over the years.

The one constant is hitting. I still see "Travel" players using -8 bats at 13U. It's hard not to shake my head at it...All my guys use -3 bats. I told them that's what they will be using on the HS Team, so that's what they better get used to swinging now.

One of the harder jobs is getting 13 year olds to realize that it's PERFECTLY OKAY when they hit hard line drives that are caught for outs...and not have them think they need to change their swing because it was an out.

The fun thing is that the better players will get better and better as they mature physically and mentally.

Hang on..it can be a bumpy ride.

And to add to that..

14U tends to "Clean it up" a bit.

In other words let's say you have 10 13U Travel Teams in your area.

By the Spring of 14U season, those 10 teams will normally turn into 5 or so teams, and because the better players are still playing, the teams typically get stronger.

In my area we have probably 5 or 6 "Baseball Academy" (Quotes are essential here) teams. These are guys who run full time businesses that give private lessons etc and run teams. Typically their teams are composed of kids that have parents that pay these guys to give their kids lessons at least a few times a week.

What blows my mind is that the best team out of the local "Academy" teams is average at best. And in this case the average team is losing ground. And further some of these teams play a ton of games and lose more than they win by a LONG shot. And still I see the same guys coaching, and most of the same kids playing, and the same parents paying. I just can't fathom that...but that's just me.

13 is a tough year because you have some kids hitting puberty early, others late. It can be hard to get a read on who's really going to progress and who's not.

14 is when the late kids catch up. Also, around our parts, they end up trying out for HS JV, and a lot of them get cut for the first time in their lives. When it happens again at 15/9th grade, kids start sifting out to lacrosse, jobs, girlfriends, or other interests. A lot of parents mistakenly call this "burnout", but really it's just kids seeing the handwriting on the wall and moving on with their lives.

Age 15 is a tough age even to find opponents. This is when travel ball shifts from being more instructional/developmental and starts to look more towards exposure venues for the proven producers. A lot of dreams die in this period. It can get pretty rocky.

By the time you get to 16u, for the most part you're dealing with only current or future varsity players. At our high school you hardly even see kids try out and get cut at the sophomore, junior and senior levels because by then everyone who's not going to make it has pretty much already hung it up of their own accord.

quote:

One of the harder jobs is getting 13 year olds to realize that it's PERFECTLY OKAY when they hit hard line drives that are caught for outs...and not have them think they need to change their swing because it was an out.

Memory from my son's first 13U game (fall after LL all-stars): He crushes a ball at the second baseman for an easy 4-6-3 DP. He comes back to the bench frustrated and says he can't hit a ball any harder. The next time up he gets elevation and gaps one to right center. He slides into third for a triple. As he's dusting himself off he asks the coach how far out of LL the hit would have been. The coach (6'4", son 5'0") leaned over and said, "Son, you're not in LL anymore." The memories of the journey are the best part.

The kid from his LL who hit the monster LL homers flied out a lot in 13U. My son who hit fence scraping homers in LL, hit a lot of doubles in 13U.

That is the truth. My son is playing 13u right now (actually 14U pony but will be playing 13U travel during the summer).

Dead on about the field distance changing. My son has always been taught to hit hard line drives and concentrate on making solid contact over elevating his swing. He has had several buddies that were long bomb hitters at the LL level but now are finding themselves hitting routine fly balls. Some of these kids are downright shocked that they aren't having the same success that they were just a year ago.

Definate transition but one the boys must undergo to be successful.

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Originally posted by Wklink:
He has had several buddies that were long bomb hitters at the LL level but now are finding themselves hitting routine fly balls. Some of these kids are downright shocked that they aren't having the same success that they were just a year ago.

But the smart ones will realize that "success" at 13U isn't important. They will go from routine fly balls at 13, to blasts off the fence in 2-3 years in HS.

True, some will but I noticed a long time ago that their swing mechanics were pretty bad. They did that big uppercut swing that takes the ball a long way but they are finding that when they aren't hitting fly balls to left field they are striking out.

This is the age where kids either become serious about playing or they start to go away from the game. Many of the kids that were the big hitters at the 12u level lose interest once they realize that the game is getting harder. You are right, the smart ones will stick around and will eventually hit the ball well but the smart ones will also look at their hitting mechanics and work on it to improve their hitting ability.

Many, I'm sorry to say, would rather just play on their X-boxes and don't put forth the extra effort to improve themselves.

I was afraid this would happen to my son. I guess an hour and a half taking BP on Saturday and and three hours of me hitting fly balls and grounders to him yesterday answered my question. My back hurts today and my shoulder is still killing me but I guess I know he is serious about this.

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But the smart ones will realize that "success" at 13U isn't important. They will go from routine fly balls at 13, to blasts off the fence in 2-3 years in HS.

A lot of preteen studs muscle the ball out of small parks with weak swing mechanics. They get to the big field and fail. The legendary hitter in our LL district (hit balls off rooftops of homes across the street) was done by his junior year of high school. He was 5'8" in LL and 5'9" in high school.

I think many kids plateau by sophomores, any just never get beyond that level of play. They just do not seem to get any better. After seeing my sons HS team make the same errors over and over,it is sad to say but, we are all looking forward to the end of HS season and on to Travel Ball where everyone has the same goal in mind. To make it to the next level. He has played legion as a freshman & sophomore, but as a junior this year we are happy we are able to have him play travel. Legion would be the same kids as HS ball and I don't think my nerves could take another 20 games of this. For my son, seeing the competition down south will be great exposure and talent level will be the best. We are so looking forward to it. Good Luck to all.

Wklink and RJM,
I have to say thay my experience has been different. The best players and hardest hitters in LL are the same kids who are now starting or will start by junior year for the high school team. The kids hittting the LL bombs are still the kids hitting the HS bombs. They were good baseball players not just kids who were bigger than the other kids. I can't think of a kid who was a LL monster who didn't have an impact on the HS program other than a couple of pitchers who dominated in LL but paid the price by blowing out their arms by 13. Both had Tommy John surgery in 10th grade.

The kids who were considered the best of their age groups in LL are still, for the most part, the best on the high school team. This has generally been the case for the 5 year age span I'm familiar with.

The best baseball only players built on the success they had in LL and worked on their games year around and continued to improve. Their are a couple of multi sport players who are just good athletes have also continued to be high level high school baseball players.

I have seen the drop off with the travel team he plays with but as far as LL to HS the best players have stayed the same.

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Originally posted by fillsfan:
Wklink and RJM,
I have to say thay my experience has been different. The best players and hardest hitters in LL are the same kids who are now starting or will start by junior year for the high school team. The kids hittting the LL bombs are still the kids hitting the HS bombs. They were good baseball players not just kids who were bigger than the other kids. I can't think of a kid who was a LL monster who didn't have an impact on the HS program other than a couple of pitchers who dominated in LL but paid the price by blowing out their arms by 13. Both had Tommy John surgery in 10th grade.

The kids who were considered the best of their age groups in LL are still, for the most part, the best on the high school team. This has generally been the case for the 5 year age span I'm familiar with.

The best baseball only players built on the success they had in LL and worked on their games year around and continued to improve. Their are a couple of multi sport players who are just good athletes have also continued to be high level high school baseball players.

I have seen the drop off with the travel team he plays with but as far as LL to HS the best players have stayed the same.

Interesting post. I have seen both circumstances. Guys who were good when they were little continuing to be good through high school. Also have seen the tortoise-and-the-hare type or the ugly duckling type of guys win the race or emerge as swans when they get older.

I have seen where a group of kids are promoted by the powers that be where true competition is stiffled from shuffling the deck as they get older. I have seen lots of things and it is hard to generalize. Some of the kids who get lost by the wayside get their spirits broken at an early age (which is shameful) and once that occurs the gig is up. I think many of us are guilty to a certain degree of taking things too seriously when kids are young and not fostering long term development.

quote:

Originally posted by Gingerbread Man:

But, here is the big but, the elite travel 14u teams around our area could smoke most of the varsity HS teams

quote:

Originally posted by Gingerbread Man:

There are a few weak teams in our league but most of the teams we have played have talent on par with hs varsity level at most schools.

GBM, don't know about where you are from, but around here, 14u would not have a prayer against most HS varsity teams. At least not in our region. And where I am from has some of the best 14 year old teams in the country - including the 14u East Cobb Astros - PG's top rated 14u team in the country. And I will tell you, they would have no chance to beat 90% of the HS varsity teams in our area - NO chance. Of course, around here, most HS teams have a minimum of 2-3 top D1 signees on the team. You must have some pretty weak HS teams where you are from.

All that being said, travel teams are generally stronger than HS teams once you get to probably 16 years old. Your other thinking is correct. Legion teams are usually weaker due to the geographic restraints.

bballman,

A lot of the HS teams around here are not that strong compared with "this years" 14u elite travel teams from our area. Most of our HS are 3A-4A with a few 5A. This years 14u are a special group of guys around our travel area, unlike as seen in quite a few years. Like I said before, most of the good 14u teams have tall strong kids throwing in the 80's which is on par with the average HS around here. Add 9 batters who can all crush the ball and play solid defense and thus you have the elite 14u teams able to beat most varsity HS teams from our area. Of course there are those few HS teams in our area that would smoke the 14u but they are the exception.

That is why it wouldn't surprize me at all 3-4 years from now to see our local area buzzing with MLB scouts and College recruiters, there is a lot of talent at this age.

GBM, could be for you I guess. I do come from a very strong area for HS ball. Don't get me wrong, our 14u teams are pretty strong as well, but very few freshmen around here get any varsity time. My son did last year, but he threw in the 82-84 range with three pitches. He was the exception. Like I said earlier, most all HS teams from the Atlanta north metro area have at least 2-3 top D1 signees. We play in 5A, the highest classification, but even the top 3A teams are pretty darned good. It's a tough area to compete in on the HS level.

Don't mean to put you down with the comment, just sounds alien to me when you say the 14u teams can smoke most HS teams. Most 14 yr olds around here would not see varsity action.

bballman,

You see, our HS graduating class around here this year had few if any D-1 signees. Most of the college kids recruited this year signed with D-2 and JC. This year wasn't a year where there was much buzzing going on from D-1 recruiters or MLB scouts. Most HS teams had about 2 guys throwing in the 82-85 range with others on the team in the 76-80 range. There were a few HS around here with a pitcher here and there hitting upper 80's but they were the exception. I think we only had 1-2 guys who actually broke through to the 90mph club and they were juniors.

We have had years in the past with really strong varsity teams, but this year has not been a good year for quality varsity baseball. This 14u group though has the potential to set a new standard- a new mark in years to come as for professional quality baseball players from our area. Our 14u elite teams could probably compete well with your elite 14u teams from Georgia. But our HS varsity teams would get smoked by your HS teams due to the general lack of talent in our area at that age.

quote:

Guys who were good when they were little continuing to be good through high school.

My son's LL all-star team was section runnerup to a team that went to the LLWS. They were probably the second best team in the state. Five players are playing high school baseball. Three should play college ball. However, they are all successful high school athletes. Some had the strength and/or speed to compete on the small field. Their skills didn't translate well on the 60/90. They're all juniors this year except two seniors.

pitcher - varsity baseball, college potential
catcher - varsity baseball and s0ccer, college potential both sports
first - varsity basketball
second - varsity s0ccer
short - varsity s0ccer and lacrosse
third - varsity s0ccer (major D1 next year)
left - varsity baseball and football (would play college football if not majoring in engineering)
center - varsity football and lacrosse, college lacrosse potential
right - varsity baseball and hockey, college baseball potential
pitcher - varsity baseball
outfielder - varsity football, college football potential
outfielder - varsity lacrosse, college lacrosse potential

Well, don't get too excited at the 14 year old level.

The 14 year old player is like any other 14 year old. Even the most talented ones may or may not get that much interest from pro scouts at the 16-18 year range. A lot of these kids will decide a car or a girl or a job are more important. Others will find that their grades aren't that great and will have trouble making the scouts interest. Others will lapse into bad habits because they don't have mom and/or dad there all the time to make sure they are eating right and doing the workouts needed to garner such interest.

Sme will though and if you have that much talent at the 14 year old level then yes, you may get a higher percentage of scouts than in past years. At the same time you have to wonder why all of a sudden there is such a massive increase in 14 year old talent when the 16-18 year olds are so mediocre. Was there something that occurred during that time that created such an aberration?

If not then these same awesome 14Us may fall to earth in high school.

quote:

Originally posted by RJM:

quote:

Guys who were good when they were little continuing to be good through high school.

My son's LL all-star team was section runnerup to a team that went to the LLWS. They were probably the second best team in the state. Five players are playing high school baseball. Three should play college ball. However, they are all successful high school athletes. Some had the strength and/or speed to compete on the small field. Their skills didn't translate well on the 60/90. They're all juniors this year except two seniors.

pitcher - varsity baseball, college potential
catcher - varsity baseball and s0ccer, college potential both sports
first - varsity basketball
second - varsity s0ccer
short - varsity s0ccer and lacrosse
third - varsity s0ccer (major D1 next year)
left - varsity baseball and football (would play college football if not majoring in engineering)
center - varsity football and lacrosse, college lacrosse potential
right - varsity baseball and hockey, college baseball potential
pitcher - varsity baseball
outfielder - varsity football, college football potential
outfielder - varsity lacrosse, college lacrosse potential

Looks like a lot of these kids got pulled different directions by different interests. It may not be that many of these kids couldn't play at the HS level, they probably could have transitioned but I suspect a lot of them probably didn't enjoy it as much at the higher levels and found other interests they enjoyed more.

That is great. Not every kid should play baseball at the high school level. The lessons that were taught at the LL level translate to more than just the big field. Baseball teaches kids teamwork, sacrifice and the concept of doing your individual best to help the team win. Those translate to any sport and to many things in life.

quote:

It may not be that many of these kids couldn't play at the HS level, they probably could have transitioned ...

The kids who aren't playing high school baseball failed at the middle school level. They had visible mechanical flaws in LL. They were just athletic enough on a small field to overcome their flaws.

I'd echo the statement to play QUALITY travel as long as you can. Often this can be hard to do, in my area its tough, as there is some pressure to play Junior High/ incoming 9th grade summer "school ball". In my youngest case, his travel ball team is from 7 different school districts & we're dealing with this right now.

Fortunately, several of our strongest local large HS baseball programs recognize the value of the exceptional player @ 14 playing extremely competive travel ball instead of playing the "40 games in 30 days" school ball alternative. Our local school programs that seem to have a problem with players playing high level travel seem to have problems in general, year after year

quote:

Originally posted by RJM:

quote:

It may not be that many of these kids couldn't play at the HS level, they probably could have transitioned ...

The kids who aren't playing high school baseball failed at the middle school level. They had visible mechanical flaws in LL. They were just athletic enough on a small field to overcome their flaws.

I guess my question is: Do you think these kids could have transitioned to the big field with the correct instruction and practice? Like you I know more than a few good athletic kids that at this time are struggling because of bad mechanics or simply poor work ethic.

If the kids really wanted to play at the higher level and were decent athletes then more than likely they could have progressed but that would have required more instruction and practice than I am sure a lot of these kids either wanted or that their parents could afford.

I compare it to my golfing time when I was in high school. I started playing when I was seven years old. By the time I was 13 I was pretty good. I would shoot in the mid 80's on a municipal course, could strike the ball well but like a lot of amateurs I was terrible (relatively speaking) around greens and such. It took a couple of years of lessons to correct bad habits before I started to really flourish as a HS golfer. Our team was 3A champs for the final three years I played Varsity and I dropped my average from the mid 80's to the mid to low 70's and my handicap to under 6.

I think it is the same thing. It takes practice and instruction to advance to the next level. I am willing to bet that your boys that play HS ball probably were the most dedicated ones on the team as well.

quote:

I guess my question is: Do you think these kids could have transitioned to the big field with the correct instruction and practice? Like you I know more than a few good athletic kids that at this time are struggling because of bad mechanics or simply poor work ethic.

I believe they were all either too small to succeed in middle school which pushed them to other sports or didn't have the hand/eye coordination to hit a baseball from 60/90.

One kid I thought had bad mechanics but potential and was strong as an ox. I took him for my 13U team and we worked with him. We couldn't undo six years of poor hitting and throwing mechanics. It was amazing a kid who developed to be so fluid on the basketball court as a big man was so stiff on the baseball field.

It's not hard for a big, strong kid with poor hitting mechanics to muscle a ball over a 200 foot fence. The team also had some roadrunners. We got the other team throwing the ball around by rounding bases hard and atempting to take the extra base at every opportunity. At the next level you can't steal first.

One thing that has always amused me is to see the LLWS with some of these matured stud 13 year olds getting K after K throwing 75mph heat from 46 feet and the umpires calling everything 6 inches off either side of the plate a strike. Advance to 60/90 and it seems as if you have to throw it right over the middle of the plate to get a strike called by blue. The bigger fields, especially the greater pitching distance, really becomes a challenge for players. Pitchers throw way more pitches trying to find the strike zone and thus way less innings and a higer ERA. Batters now watch pitches that seem to break "feet" instead of "inches", and fielders have to cover more ground than a gazelle running from a lion to track a ball down!

The master genius of the 60/90 field is the perfect test for true athleticism. At this level it actually takes real genuine "practice" coupled with a God given talent to produce satisfactory results.

quote:

fielders have to cover more ground

Exchange in 13U after a catchable ball drops foul down the rightfield line ....

ME: That's your ball.

PLAYER: Way over there?

ME: Yes, the first baseman isn't going to catch it over his shoulder and the rightfielder will never get there in time. You should be able to make a running catch on that with minimal effort.

We've yet to have that problem. I attribute it to multiple things: many of our boys started playing on 50-70 300ft fields with relatively wide warning tracks @ age 11. 2nd, while this was brutal for lesser teams, we started putting a lot of emphasis on WHO the team needed in the outfield. This year, 3 of our track guys (sub 4.8 40's) play either CF or alternate in RF. All read the ball off the bat well & are exceptional defensively.

So far,the jump to 90' baselines hasn't effected the team much at all. We actually saw more difference (less hard hit balls through the infield) when the team transitioned from the '50-'70 diamond to the '54-'80.

The kid who didn't go after the ball on the 60/90 played two years of 50/70 in a Sunday doubleheader league. 50/70 is very small compared to 60/90. He was the only player who had this problem. The rest of the kids were very aggressive by nature.

No doubt the 50-70 diamond is much smaller than the 60-90, thats not where I was going... On many of our 50-70's & 54-80's the accompanying large outfield size has challenged our boys & put much more than a passing interest in the play of our outfielders. Like you stated earlier, even a big kid with bad mechanics can hit it over on 200ft fences. Well to hit it out on the 280-300's at that age, the kid better be strong & have great mechanics. The mechanics we've worked on & with most, continually work on. I can understand the lack of agressiveness scenario. Very hard to teach agressiveness, our current bunch has no lack of that trait.