When I played Legion ball in the 70s I heard the number was 90% of MLB players. Now in the metro Philadelphia area, I doubt it's 20% of D1 players.
quote:Originally posted by wogdoggy:
heres a stat thats HARD to argue with
On an average, 50 percent of Major League Baseball players played American Legion Baseball as teenagers. Nearly 70 percent of all college players played American Legion Baseball as teenagers.
wogdoggy...I love the idea of legion ball however where we live Legion ball has pretty much fallen apart. We had three legion programs merge just so they could field one team. Based on this and other factors over the last several years I'm thinking your stats may be a bit skewed.
If you are including players that played any form of Legion ball (Jr. Legion/Sr. Legion) you may be right. With that said, around here very few of the recruited/drafted players were on a Legion team past the Jr. Legion years (13-15).
I guess you could say that a large percentage of MLB or College players were on Legion teams however recreational youth leagues could make the same claim.
Those stats are actually from the American Legion site. I expect they have the data to back it up. My boys played Jr. and Sr. Legion... one from 13-17 years old and the other from 13-16. The latter committed to play D1 at 16 yrs old. Not sure why you would exclude those 13-15 yr olds from the conversation.
Legion teams where my son played high school is mostly non prospects, varsity bench players and JV players.
quote:Originally posted by masterofnone:
Those stats are actually from the American Legion site. I expect they have the data to back it up. My boys played Jr. and Sr. Legion... one from 13-17 years old and the other from 13-16. The latter committed to play D1 at 16 yrs old. Not sure why you would exclude those 13-15 yr olds from the conversation.
Didn't say the stats weren't correct...just that they may be skewed. Congrats to your son however I think it would be safe to say most scouts aren't out watching Jr. Legion games these days.
I wonder how the stats would read if only considering players on Sr. Legion teams (during the years that most high school players are recruited).
Yes that would be interesting. I did a little investigating and could not find anything like that. But good players are playing legion at some point, whether junior or senior legion. I agree that legion has lost some momentum, but I just don't think it's as dead as this thread is making it out to be.
Also, assuming the American Legion stats are correct, the highest ratio of travel/club players to Legion players in the MLB is 2:1. You can check my math on that.
Also, assuming the American Legion stats are correct, the highest ratio of travel/club players to Legion players in the MLB is 2:1. You can check my math on that.
quote:Originally posted by masterofnone:
Yes that would be interesting. I did a little investigating and could not find anything like that. But good players are playing legion at some point, whether junior or senior legion. I agree that legion has lost some momentum, but I just don't think it's as dead as this thread is making it out to be.
Also, assuming the American Legion stats are correct, the highest ratio of travel/club players to Legion players in the MLB is 2:1. You can check my math on that.
As many have said, IMHO it is all about the area of the country where the legion ball is being played.
In NJ, and the immediate area the OP is asking about, there are very few Legion teams that can compare to the club teams that have become prevalent over the last several years. On the other hand the Toms River Black Sox run a first class organization and actually do draw interest from college and pro scouts. They also have some pretty famous alumni who have and are currently playing college, pro,and MLB baseball.
Legion is a great program. It is much stronger in some areas of the country than others. However, there is a good reason they raised the age limit.
Guys like Mike Cameron, Craig Biggio, Roger Clemens, Flash Gordon, etc. all played Legion... Their sons all played on club/travel teams.
The reason scouts and college recruiters flock to the big travel tournaments is because that is where nearly all the best players are at. Most of the best Legion players also end up playing for a team in those events. The two top prospects from Minnesota for example. This is true in other states where Legion is still strong. The best players in NJ, the best players in Virginia, same thing. Only the Dakotas, Wyoming, Montana, and maybe Idaho might be exceptions.
The best prospects create exposure opportunities for everyone playing with and against them. It's that simple!
Guys like Mike Cameron, Craig Biggio, Roger Clemens, Flash Gordon, etc. all played Legion... Their sons all played on club/travel teams.
The reason scouts and college recruiters flock to the big travel tournaments is because that is where nearly all the best players are at. Most of the best Legion players also end up playing for a team in those events. The two top prospects from Minnesota for example. This is true in other states where Legion is still strong. The best players in NJ, the best players in Virginia, same thing. Only the Dakotas, Wyoming, Montana, and maybe Idaho might be exceptions.
The best prospects create exposure opportunities for everyone playing with and against them. It's that simple!
PG ... When I played Legion it was the game. The entire team was very happy we had a top prospect on the team. It gave us all a lot of visibility. But for my son Legion would have been a great place to hide. What I thought was great about travel was facing the quality of pitchers he faced and proved he could hit them.s
In my part of NJ legion is basically one or two good teams and the rest are non competitive. A lot of 18-2 and 23-1 games when you look at the schedules. Like jerseydad stated above, three large high schools merged legion to field a somewhat competitive team. The best players from these schools all play travel and much of the legion team is made up of graduated players.
The best team in NJ who regularly goes to the World Series consists mainly of the best players on a private high school team. A very good, nationally ranked HS with top level talent. The players are essentially recruited by the high school and required to play on the legion team coached by the high school coaches. They dominate the local legion every year.
To me they are more like a travel team than a legion team and I think most of their players play travel also, at one part of the year or another. They have a academy for year round workouts just like a travel team would.
Legion has changed a lot in the past 10 years in our area, and not for the better.
The best team in NJ who regularly goes to the World Series consists mainly of the best players on a private high school team. A very good, nationally ranked HS with top level talent. The players are essentially recruited by the high school and required to play on the legion team coached by the high school coaches. They dominate the local legion every year.
To me they are more like a travel team than a legion team and I think most of their players play travel also, at one part of the year or another. They have a academy for year round workouts just like a travel team would.
Legion has changed a lot in the past 10 years in our area, and not for the better.
quote:Originally posted by PGStaff:
I believe that Legion stat about 50% of the MLB players having played Legion. At one time it might have been higher and it will continue to drop because things have changed.
Problem is that most all of the younger MLB players did not play Legion. Most all the top draft picks over the past 5 - 10 years have played travel/club baseball. For every Legion player you can name drafted in the top 5 rounds, I will give you 10 who played elsewhere. In fact, I will give you 25 names.
It's odd that so many don't (or won't) understand this. Understand that most HS draft picks come from 3 or 4 states. Illinois is a great baseball state, but it is not among those 3 or 4 best states. Also, if you look at the rosters of the top college teams from th top conferences, you will see that nearly every player came out of travel/club baseball.
There really is no argument regarding any of this... It is a fact! As always there will be a few exceptions.
BTW, I have nothing against Legion Baseball. I grew up with it and my kids played Legion. One son would be among those 50% that played in the Major Leagues. Things have changed in a very big way since then! But believe what you want!
travel teams and your travel elite teams arent any better than the legion teams especially in our district..if you think they are you are just kidding yourself..there really is no arguement Its a fact...the reason you are seeing more of these so called elite travel teams is because daddy can pay up the 2 or 3k and get his kid on the team..in legion ball you take the best two or three kids from maybe 4 high schools and make a team..BY INVITE..not a dad with 2k in his pocket who pays for his son's exposure..illinois is the 3rd or 4th best recruited state for baseball,,and it has to do with grades..any coach would rather pick the talent where he knows there will no be an academic problem down the road.
Wogdoggy,
I don't think anyone would convince you. It's true that there are some weaker travel teams. I'm talking about the higher levels. Do you know there are travel teams that have a half dozen or more pitchers throwing 90+. Teams that have two or three first round picks every year. Teams that have there entire roster attending highest level DI colleges.
These teams don't recruit from 3 or 4 high schools in Illinois... They recruit the best players from any HS.
A few years ago the Legion World Series was held in Cedar Rapids, IA. There were about 25 total MLB scouts and colleges in attendance for the early games. There are tournaments in Georgia and et Florida that have over 500 colleges and MLB scouts.
IMO the only way Legion ball can compete is by actually turning into travel teams and competing! It will be very difficult for most Legion teams, but because of the competition (talent level) Legion players would get much more exposure.
I understand that Legion players are known by colleges in their area. Those players benefit greatly by being seen nationally. Amazing what the local college offers when they find out others are interested.
Perhaps those players and parents who have done both are the best to talk to. Wogdoggy, I can tell that you have not seen the top teams in travel ball. Those individual teams would have 6 pitchers that in most years would be as good if not better than the #1 pitcher in all of Legion Baseball, let alone the 3 or 4 HS's in the suburbs of Chicago. Though I will agree that the baseball is really good in that area.
I don't think anyone would convince you. It's true that there are some weaker travel teams. I'm talking about the higher levels. Do you know there are travel teams that have a half dozen or more pitchers throwing 90+. Teams that have two or three first round picks every year. Teams that have there entire roster attending highest level DI colleges.
These teams don't recruit from 3 or 4 high schools in Illinois... They recruit the best players from any HS.
A few years ago the Legion World Series was held in Cedar Rapids, IA. There were about 25 total MLB scouts and colleges in attendance for the early games. There are tournaments in Georgia and et Florida that have over 500 colleges and MLB scouts.
IMO the only way Legion ball can compete is by actually turning into travel teams and competing! It will be very difficult for most Legion teams, but because of the competition (talent level) Legion players would get much more exposure.
I understand that Legion players are known by colleges in their area. Those players benefit greatly by being seen nationally. Amazing what the local college offers when they find out others are interested.
Perhaps those players and parents who have done both are the best to talk to. Wogdoggy, I can tell that you have not seen the top teams in travel ball. Those individual teams would have 6 pitchers that in most years would be as good if not better than the #1 pitcher in all of Legion Baseball, let alone the 3 or 4 HS's in the suburbs of Chicago. Though I will agree that the baseball is really good in that area.
Legion may be pretty good in some areas of the country. Here in Georgia, I think there are 3 legion teams in the state. I can't be sure because I can't find any information what so ever on the American Legion baseball website on Georgia teams. For some it might be an option, but here in Georgia, it is definitely sub-par. Some of the teams PG is talking about are based out of near by East Cobb and I can tell you that the best teams out of East Cobb recruit the best players from the Southeast, if not the country to play there. I think there are so many travel teams popping up that the talent pool has become somewhat diluted, but the fact is, the best players around here play travel ball, not Legion.
This is not hard to explain. As is so often the case, an altered economic situation has driven changed behaviors.
Twenty years ago, Legion was king. Then, a few people like Bob Williams and Jerry Ford figured out that if they could create quality venues that would attract many top players, scouts and recruiters would flock to see them play there.
This was a particularly attractive development for college recruiters, whose schedules and budgets have always been tight. Instead of traipsing to every local Legion venue, they could target a handful of showcases that attracted players relevant to their programs and recruit much more efficiently than they once had.
Suddenly, coaches of high school-aged players all over the country were organizing teams to travel to the increasing number of showcase tournaments; and they were drawing their recruits from the ranks of local Legion teams.
All one had to do to see the effect was attend a Legion game and a quality showcase event. The Legion game drew a handful of recruiters from local colleges and, perhaps, a couple of local area scouts or "bird dogs." Meanwhile, it was standing room only with scouts and recruiters behind the plate at quality showcase tournaments.
Not that the showcase movement hasn't led to some notable and lamentable excesses; but, at the end of the day, it's the more efficient way to see and evaluate talent (by far). Once again, Adam Smith's "invisible hand" has won the day.
Twenty years ago, Legion was king. Then, a few people like Bob Williams and Jerry Ford figured out that if they could create quality venues that would attract many top players, scouts and recruiters would flock to see them play there.
This was a particularly attractive development for college recruiters, whose schedules and budgets have always been tight. Instead of traipsing to every local Legion venue, they could target a handful of showcases that attracted players relevant to their programs and recruit much more efficiently than they once had.
Suddenly, coaches of high school-aged players all over the country were organizing teams to travel to the increasing number of showcase tournaments; and they were drawing their recruits from the ranks of local Legion teams.
All one had to do to see the effect was attend a Legion game and a quality showcase event. The Legion game drew a handful of recruiters from local colleges and, perhaps, a couple of local area scouts or "bird dogs." Meanwhile, it was standing room only with scouts and recruiters behind the plate at quality showcase tournaments.
Not that the showcase movement hasn't led to some notable and lamentable excesses; but, at the end of the day, it's the more efficient way to see and evaluate talent (by far). Once again, Adam Smith's "invisible hand" has won the day.
legion ball insome regions is very strong while in others it is non existant
Did every player on your sons Legion team go D1? This is the case with many 17U travel teams. By the way, showcase ball is not 13U daddy ball.quote:Originally posted by wogdoggy:quote:Originally posted by PGStaff:
I believe that Legion stat about 50% of the MLB players having played Legion. At one time it might have been higher and it will continue to drop because things have changed.
Problem is that most all of the younger MLB players did not play Legion. Most all the top draft picks over the past 5 - 10 years have played travel/club baseball. For every Legion player you can name drafted in the top 5 rounds, I will give you 10 who played elsewhere. In fact, I will give you 25 names.
It's odd that so many don't (or won't) understand this. Understand that most HS draft picks come from 3 or 4 states. Illinois is a great baseball state, but it is not among those 3 or 4 best states. Also, if you look at the rosters of the top college teams from th top conferences, you will see that nearly every player came out of travel/club baseball.
There really is no argument regarding any of this... It is a fact! As always there will be a few exceptions.
BTW, I have nothing against Legion Baseball. I grew up with it and my kids played Legion. One son would be among those 50% that played in the Major Leagues. Things have changed in a very big way since then! But believe what you want!
travel teams and your travel elite teams arent any better than the legion teams especially in our district..if you think they are you are just kidding yourself..there really is no arguement Its a fact...the reason you are seeing more of these so called elite travel teams is because daddy can pay up the 2 or 3k and get his kid on the team..in legion ball you take the best two or three kids from maybe 4 high schools and make a team..BY INVITE..not a dad with 2k in his pocket who pays for his son's exposure..illinois is the 3rd or 4th best recruited state for baseball,,and it has to do with grades..any coach would rather pick the talent where he knows there will no be an academic problem down the road.
I'm reminded of the scene from Monty Python and the Holy Grail where the Black Knight says to King Arthur, "Tis just a scratch."
quote:Originally posted by RJM:Did every player on your sons Legion team go D1? This is the case with many 17U travel teams. By the way, showcase ball is not 13U daddy ball.quote:Originally posted by wogdoggy:quote:Originally posted by PGStaff:
I believe that Legion stat about 50% of the MLB players having played Legion. At one time it might have been higher and it will continue to drop because things have changed.
Problem is that most all of the younger MLB players did not play Legion. Most all the top draft picks over the past 5 - 10 years have played travel/club baseball. For every Legion player you can name drafted in the top 5 rounds, I will give you 10 who played elsewhere. In fact, I will give you 25 names.
It's odd that so many don't (or won't) understand this. Understand that most HS draft picks come from 3 or 4 states. Illinois is a great baseball state, but it is not among those 3 or 4 best states. Also, if you look at the rosters of the top college teams from th top conferences, you will see that nearly every player came out of travel/club baseball.
There really is no argument regarding any of this... It is a fact! As always there will be a few exceptions.
BTW, I have nothing against Legion Baseball. I grew up with it and my kids played Legion. One son would be among those 50% that played in the Major Leagues. Things have changed in a very big way since then! But believe what you want!
travel teams and your travel elite teams arent any better than the legion teams especially in our district..if you think they are you are just kidding yourself..there really is no arguement Its a fact...the reason you are seeing more of these so called elite travel teams is because daddy can pay up the 2 or 3k and get his kid on the team..in legion ball you take the best two or three kids from maybe 4 high schools and make a team..BY INVITE..not a dad with 2k in his pocket who pays for his son's exposure..illinois is the 3rd or 4th best recruited state for baseball,,and it has to do with grades..any coach would rather pick the talent where he knows there will no be an academic problem down the road.
not every kid went d1 as a matter of fact only a few went d1.lotsa d3's ..didnt hear of any d2's.I'm sure you can take 2 great kids from illinois a few from indiana a couple from ohio,,pay for plane tickets to jupiter and have a great team..So what? what does that prove? cherry picking a few kids from each state and making a super team? even if my kid were that caliber player i wouldnt cough up the money for that.My kid is a YOUNG freshy in college and wants to play for legion again..he loves playing with his friends and enjoying the game having fun and not worrying about the next level..like his college coach told him..IF YOUR GOOD ENOUGH,,I'll get the pro scouts out here to see you.It doesnt matter how big the stage is ,,for example you dont have to go to jupiter florida with some cream puff cherry picked team to play d1.a local showcase we attended had over 100 scouts there and a few pro scouts as well..one kid who is 6 foot 2 and still projects well that throws 90-92 got picked up by the pro's.
This topic is a gift that just keeps giving. Thanks!
quote:Originally posted by joemktg:
This topic is a gift that just keeps giving. Thanks!