A) Bringing your starter back after a two and a half hour delay?
B) Letting said starter throw 130+ pitches?
A and B plus losing the game in the 9th?
i realize this is big boy ball with a lot on the line? But is this pitching abuse? Is it sound game strategy?
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Interesting interview with the guy that hit the game winning HR... said he knew with that long break the P wouldn't have a fastball so sat on off speed. Just missed a change then got the curve. I wonder if that was something he figured out on his own or if that was feedback from coaches.
The only person second guessing is the head coach.
Nobody should be second guessing. It was mistake from the first the thought, the fact the announcers tapped danced around it instead of actually discussing was or should be embarrassing to the NCAA the network and everyone involved....does anyone think a football coach in bowl game or a march madness game wouldn’t be called out for something so dumb?
FSU made serious rookie mistake and rightfully lost the game and the season for it. It was one of the DUMBEST baseball moves ever.
Plus I think Coach Martin should publicly apologize to his pitcher for being unreasonable, his bullpen for not trusting them and his team and alumni for making a top 10 bonehead decision in the history of baseball....I bet he would have cut Babe Ruth for not being in good enough shape....he should do the right thing and resign today to start coaching LACROSSE
Here is my thought and I am not sticking up for anyone.
Pitching is not FSU's strength. If you have ever been to the stadium you might notice it seems a little weird. The dimensions are LF 340, CF 400, RF 320, RF fench 315. It's a hitters field for sure.
Compare that to Clemson's field dimensions LF 320, LFC 370,CF 400, RC 375, RF 330. Or Dudy Noble Field or any other.
As a pitcher, would you want to pitch at Dick Howser?
Some people subscribe to the argument that good hitting wins championships, others say great pitching and defense. These days, in the ACC, SEC, etc. you must have enough quality arms to beat your opponent, especially knowing how tough the postseason can be on your arms.
I am not sure that he had anyone to send in. I think last week wore them all off.
BTW, for FSU pitchers, opponets average ERA is .600.
JMO.
How did the field dimensions effect the 2 walks that proceeded the tape measure home run?
listen I know it hurts to admit coaches make mistakes, they still human and this one was huge and completed in multiple stages in slow motion....it was terrible.
I honstly think the network and the announcers handling of it was as bad the actual move.
I question ignoring arm health more than losing the game. Parrish threw 109 pitches. Then he threw every fifteen minutes for two and a half hours to keep his arm loose. I realize the extra pitches weren’t full velocity. But he was probably over 200 between the game and staying loose when he returned. Then, regardless of the warmup tosses he’s over 130 for the game. He pitched for over four hours.
I realize there are people on the board (parents of players and coaches) who have to be careful what they say regarding what occurred in this game. But what Martin did to this pitcher deserves questioning.
RJM posted:I question ignoring arm health more than losing the game. Parrish threw 109 pitches. Then he threw every fifteen minutes for two and a half hours to keep his arm loose. I realize the extra pitches weren’t full velocity. But he was probably over 200 between the game and staying loose when he returned. Then, regardless of the warmup tosses he’s over 130 for the game. He pitched for over four hours.
I realize there are people on the board (parents of players and coaches) who have to be careful what they say regarding what occurred in this game. But what Martin did to this pitcher deserves questioning.
I am not afraid to say that it was a very poor decision, with lack of concern for the pitchers health.
What I see here is that once a team gets into the losers brackets, you dont have enough options for the possible next game and you might have some very sore arms from the week before winning your conference championship. If your strength is offense, this is what can happen.
I am learning how difficult it is for a staff to manage their pitching staff. Some people are better at it than others.
Was Graham mishandling his pitchers? Using them too much? It wasn't just analysts wondering. It was big league scouts.
https://www.chron.com/sports/r...at-heart-1650176.php
This article is from ten years ago. Graham feels you have to place demands on pitchers. You have to make them tough. Given the guy is now 82 in his last year of coaching he has a PhD in Old School. When he started coaching arms went dead and no one knew why. Next!
My definition of old school coaching is someone too stubborn and ignorant to keep learning.
I pass no judgement about pitch counts, everyone has an opinion. This was about a 3 hour delay and 6 or 8 bullpens thrown to stay hot. That is just not a reasonable expectation to ask from your pitcher IMO.
Ulitimatly it hurt the team because it wasn’t reasonable. Let’s be honest folks it was dumb there is no other arguement.
He wasn't throwing bullpens he was tossing every 15 minutes to stay warm. No one is arguing that it was a bad choice.
Definitely time for a change.
Was a hot topic for discussion at the game today, which is in lightening delay with another scheduled game for 630. The NCAA has to realize that these are amateurs who have had a long season, and do what's best for them, not the ESPN schedule.
I can guarantee their will be rules set in place by next season.
You can’t control the weather. There’s more at stake than the ESPN schedule. There’s the Super Regionals schedule next weekend. They don’t want any regionals weather delayed into Tuesday or Wednesday. With sixteen or seventeen pitchers a rain delay shouldn’t be an issue. The issue is how many pitchers does the coach trust in a big moment (potential elimination).
Martin showed he doesn’t have faith in a lot of his pitchers. I prefer Esquer’s (Stanford) approach. Today he said there’s no sense having a pitcher rested for a game you don’t get to play.
I agree with everyone here....that it was maybe the most bonehead baseball decision I have ever seen. As the parent of a pitcher I know there's no way he could have thrown 100+, then sat around for 2 1/2 hours and come out with any sort of shot at being competitive against the hitters.......BUT...........
I was talking to my son about it yesterday....he's a D1 pitcher. Played SS and pitched in HS....would have thrown every day if a coach would have let him and never had one bit of arm trouble.
He said "dad, if I had stayed warmed up, I'd have been fine....and it's the Regionals....if I was pitching and we had nobody else, I'd have stayed in too"
That being said, it's not the kid's decision....of course a kid would want to stay in in that situation. A guy with as much experience as Martin has to just know that it's not he right thing to do and that the result is likely to be exactly what he got.
Guess that's why Martin has 1800 wins and 0 NCAA Titles...
RJM posted:Was Graham mishandling his pitchers? Using them too much? It wasn't just analysts wondering. It was big league scouts.
https://www.chron.com/sports/r...at-heart-1650176.php
This article is from ten years ago. Graham feels you have to place demands on pitchers. You have to make them tough. Given the guy is now 82 in his last year of coaching he has a PhD in Old School. When he started coaching arms went dead and no one knew why. Next!
My definition of old school coaching is someone too stubborn and ignorant to keep learning.
Yes, Graham was wearing out arms. At one time there was someone who would post pitch counts in College when they exceeded 120 (?) in a game. Graham was routinely on the list. I believe by "refusing to retire" he set Rice back many years. Not only with his reputation on arm usage, but also by letting some very "up and coming" coaches move on to coach other teams. Rice only has 3800 undergraduates. They may never be back.
Buckeye 2015 posted:I agree with everyone here....that it was maybe the most bonehead baseball decision I have ever seen. As the parent of a pitcher I know there's no way he could have thrown 100+, then sat around for 2 1/2 hours and come out with any sort of shot at being competitive against the hitters.......BUT...........
I was talking to my son about it yesterday....he's a D1 pitcher. Played SS and pitched in HS....would have thrown every day if a coach would have let him and never had one bit of arm trouble.
He said "dad, if I had stayed warmed up, I'd have been fine....and it's the Regionals....if I was pitching and we had nobody else, I'd have stayed in too"
That being said, it's not the kid's decision....of course a kid would want to stay in in that situation. A guy with as much experience as Martin has to just know that it's not he right thing to do and that the result is likely to be exactly what he got.
the bolded is key, from everything I have read online and social media it seems clear.
There are about 2% or so of the world out there who aren't capable of independent thought and subscribe to the - because the coach knows his pitching staff better then anyone else he shouldn't be criticized theory.
TPM posted:Here is my thought and I am not sticking up for anyone.
Pitching is not FSU's strength. If you have ever been to the stadium you might notice it seems a little weird. The dimensions are LF 340, CF 400, RF 320, RF fench 315. It's a hitters field for sure.
Compare that to Clemson's field dimensions LF 320, LFC 370,CF 400, RC 375, RF 330. Or Dudy Noble Field or any other.
The RCF-RF fence is also 30 feet high... It's really not that much of a bandbox... But when you hit it halfway up the LF scoreboard directly over the Mike Martin Field sign (fitting), field dimensions don't really matter that much...
Plus it was game 2.
I understand playoff baseball gets tough on the pitching staff. Coaches are forced to overuse the preferred guy or go to an option they aren't comfortable with...but it was game 2 - it was the 18th inning in 2 days...he had virtually his entire staff to pick from including one or 2 of the guys he had used out the pen in game 1 - They were the host team a top 8 national seed - it was game 2....ok I am going back to work now.
Here's a good one!
RJM posted:You can’t control the weather. There’s more at stake than the ESPN schedule. There’s the Super Regionals schedule next weekend. They don’t want any regionals weather delayed into Tuesday or Wednesday. With sixteen or seventeen pitchers a rain delay shouldn’t be an issue. The issue is how many pitchers does the coach trust in a big moment (potential elimination).
Martin showed he doesn’t have faith in a lot of his pitchers. I prefer Esquer’s (Stanford) approach. Today he said there’s no sense having a pitcher rested for a game you don’t get to play.
You touched on a good point. How many pitchers do you actually trust this time of year?
