LH pitchers:the most intimidating pickoff move

Yes, that move can be very effective if mastered. Unfortunately, for every successful pick-off, I see 3 or 4 balls thrown down the right field line. Another option: If a LHP slide-steps to home, a slide-step pick-off move to first works wonders as well.
I'll see if I can find a video of what you are searching for.

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Unfortunately, for every successful pick-off, I see 3 or 4 balls thrown down the right field line.

Possibly, because LHPs don't grow up as MIFs, who experiment and learn how to throw from various arm-slots.

Check out a book called The Move by Mike Maack. Excellent for a LHP.

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Originally posted by getoverthere:
Check out a book called The Move by Mike Maack. Excellent for a LHP.

Ding. Ding. Ding. This is awesome. If you spend time developing it, it can virtually shut down a running game.

Pardon my skepticism, there's not much new under the sun, but I'll bite anyways--

What is The Move based on-- leg-lift, slide-step, or step-off?

Hope this brings about some interaction and ideas.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4FFwKY0K7iA

Coach Maack's book is very good.

Coach...

I'm embarrassed to ask this but can you please explain to me the "45 degree" balk rule for lefties? Is it from the left hand corner of the rubber (as you face the rubber from the batter's box) to first base? If I have that right, is it that the lefty can't step toward the plate-side of the imaginary 45 degree line?

Thank you. Go Tigers.

45 degrees from basefoot or position on rubber. The clip shows a 45 plus move. Like the strike zone it is based off the umpire. Homeplate umpire must see daylight between legs. Both home and base umpire looks for move going to 1st not plate.
If you can throw a slider that breaks through the outside corner that isn't a strike but called by umpire as a strike, you are not cheating... It's a great pitch.
If you get to 45 plus and pick someone, and the umpire calls him out, you are not cheating... It's a great move.
Remember the key isn't to pick them off necessarily, it is to get them to stop running or slow down the running game. (I know you know that, it is just the coach part yapping.)

Thanks....I just never really understood the logic of the 45 degree rule. It seems to me that "step directly toward a base" is pretty straight-forward statement and not subject to much intrepretation. I have seen more commotion from coaches and parents at the high school level about left-handed moves to first than anything else.


This is from MLB 8.05(c)...

8.05
If there is a runner, or runners, it is a balk when ...

(c) The pitcher, while touching his plate, fails to step directly toward a base before throwing to that base;

Garrett Bullock, a 2009 Wake Forest grad, led the NCAA in pickoffs with a move that flirted with that 45 degree rule better than any I'd ever seen.

I think the key was, even Garrett didn't necessarily know if he was going over there until he saw how the runner reacted. He could hold his decision that long.

We used to joke that Garrett's strategy for getting the other side's best hitter out, was to walk him and then pick him off!

quote:

Originally posted by BB13:
Thanks....I just never really understood the logic of the 45 degree rule. It seems to me that "step directly toward a base" is pretty straight-forward statement and not subject to much intrepretation. I have seen more commotion from coaches and parents at the high school level about left-handed moves to first than anything else.


This is from MLB 8.05(c)...

8.05
If there is a runner, or runners, it is a balk when ...

(c) The pitcher, while touching his plate, fails to step directly toward a base before throwing to that base;

The interpretation since day one has been "steppng more towards first than home" or stepping more towards home than first. The dividing point for this determination has become knpwn as the 45 degree line, not 45 degree rule. However, the proper explanation is "Stepping more towards____ than ____."

The problem in calling it is in two umpire mechanics. Three man mechanics provides the proper view.

So does it go the same for a RH pitcher with a runner on 3rd?

It's unclear to me how a non-stealing runner at first can be picked off by even the most hellacious LHP balk-move, as long as R1 is leaning back towards first in his primary lead (of reasonable length), and is starting his secondary ONLY after seeing full committment to the plate. (which I define as: pitcher's center of gravity begins falling like a toppled tree towards home plate...at which point, it's physically impossible for the P to throw over without totally contorting himself).

Freddy...

I agree. But, at that point, the LHP has done his job and given his catcher a fighting chance of throwing out the runner. If the LHP has a good "balk-move", it will cost that runner valuable time in delaying his jump.

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But, at that point, the LHP has done his job and given his catcher a fighting chance of throwing out the runner. If the LHP has a good "balk-move", it will cost that runner valuable time in delaying his jump.

It delays R1's secondary lead when he's not stealing.

But how does it delay R1's jump on a steal if he's going on first move?

Sorry, Freddy...

I think I was talking past you. I meant that it may prevent his ability from going on first move. If he waits until full committment (because the balk-move is effective), then it helps the catcher.

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ONLY after seeing full committment to the plate. (which I define as: pitcher's center of gravity begins falling like a toppled tree towards home plate

This is where many players get picked off because they relax just a little. They know they are not stealing, they think the pitcher is going home and they look to home too soon. I agree with you, in theory you are exactly right. But, I cannot begin to tell you how many guys I picked off, while they were looking at home and had no idea that I threw the ball to the base, and this is even at the collegiate level.

quote:

Originally posted by Fred Corral:
If you get to 45 plus and pick someone, and the umpire calls him out, you are not cheating... It's a great move.

If you drive 90 in a 60 and don't get caught, it isn't speeding, it's great driving, eh?

Sorry, coach, but if one is intentionally violating a rule, he is cheating. Now, you can make an argument that cheating is an accepted practice in baseball, but nevertheless, it is cheating.

And, it's job security. If coaches and players didn't cheat or lie, there would be no need for umpires.

If you drive 90 in a 60 and don't get caught, it isn't speeding, it's great driving, eh?

Sorry, coach, but if one is intentionally violating a rule, he is cheating. Now, you can make an argument that cheating is an accepted practice in baseball, but nevertheless, it is cheating.

And, it's job security. If coaches and players didn't cheat or lie, there would be no need for umpires.[/QUOTE]

Totally agree with our umpire here...you are telling your player a lot when you teach them to "cheat and get away with it"

Same coaches are surprised when they skip class and have a teammate sign the attendance sheet for them.

What's the difference?

Ok. Thanks for the brief course on ethics. It is well appreciated. First it is not comparing 90 in a 60 speed zone. It is more like setting your cruise control at 64-65.
The pick you are debating is a very good one. His position on the rubber is not on the arm side of the rubber. From the umpires view at homeplate he is traveling toward 1st base. This is a camera view from closer to the runners perspective than the 1st base bag perspective. Which I thought would give you the perspective of a good move.(We are not trying to fool the 1st baseman)
Question: If the umpire gives you a Tom Glavin type strike zone and you keep getting ball and a half off the plate called a strike by the umpire. Are you knowingly cheating by attacking that area and getting more strikes? Should I go and apologize to my players for telling them to do just that? Will it truly lead to missing classes? Will cats start sleeping with dogs? Will it bring about mass chaos?
I apologize for corrupting our youth. This was not the intent of the video. It was additional strategies for holding the running game.
Thanks for straightening me out my friends.

If you're teaching your LHP to go past 45 to pick then yeah it's cheating. But if you teach to get right at that 45 to pick but get more than 45 on accident then I don't think it's cheating but I won't complain if it's called a balk because it is.

quote:

Originally posted by Fred Corral:
Ok. Thanks for the brief course on ethics. It is well appreciated. First it is not comparing 90 in a 60 speed zone. It is more like setting your cruise control at 64-65.
The pick you are debating is a very good one. His position on the rubber is not on the arm side of the rubber. From the umpires view at homeplate he is traveling toward 1st base. This is a camera view from closer to the runners perspective than the 1st base bag perspective. Which I thought would give you the perspective of a good move.(We are not trying to fool the 1st baseman)
Question: If the umpire gives you a Tom Glavin type strike zone and you keep getting ball and a half off the plate called a strike by the umpire. Are you knowingly cheating by attacking that area and getting more strikes? Should I go and apologize to my players for telling them to do just that? Will it truly lead to missing classes? Will cats start sleeping with dogs? Will it bring about mass chaos?
I apologize for corrupting our youth. This was not the intent of the video. It was additional strategies for holding the running game.
Thanks for straightening me out my friends.

So, you see no difference between accepting an umpire's strike zone and teaching players to cheat.

Interesting.

Again, I can understand one arguing that cheating is a part of baseball. No problem. What I don't understand are those who practice it and pretend they don't.

No, nothing earthshaking is going to happen because of what you do. I've seen this move many, many times in the last 30 years at the D-1 level, MiLB and even high school. It's really not new.

What's different is that the coaches and players I've seen do this don't try to present it as anything other than what it is...an attempt to try to get away with a violation of the rules.

I'm tapping out on this one Jimmy and bballfan.
Can you gentlemen get the soapbox your standing on, off of me, so I can leave this discussion?

Wow.

Never known a southpaw that did not at least try to cheat on this move. Umpires, as always, wanting to be bigger in the game than the game wants to let them be, usually screw this up in favor of the pitcher (though I can give the benefit of the doubt to some umpires due to the position of the base umpire with a man on first). It is just like the plate umpire giving the pitcher, especially the lefty, 4, 5, or even 6 inches of strike zone on the outside of the plate (which, of course, I have never known a quality southpaw not to take advantage of).

It is one of the big reasons baseball can be frustrating and disappointing. There are rules and standards that should be enforced, but often are not. Instead, umpires, coaches, and players manipulate them to their own advantage. This sort of thing damages the game because it damages its integrity.

And yes, life lessons are to be learned. . . blah blah blah. The best life lessons to be learned in this is that people know the rules, bend them to their advantage, and sometimes--even often--get away with it. To the hitters and base runners who suffer, you learn that you are on the short end of the stick. To the pitchers who get away with it, you learn that you can cheat in the world and be successful doing so. Scary stuff, really.

I am not really sure Fred is asking his pitchers to cheat. Stepping right on the 45 is perfect, a little over, and the ump needs to do his job. It will not be cheating if the ump calls it correctly, it will be a balk. It is not sneaking a corked bat into play. It is performing a pick-off in front of everyone in the park and the umps. It is out there for everyone to see and if it is called a balk it would make a coach teaching his player to purposely balk look foolish. One should not teach to intentionally balk, but I have no problem whatsoever with pushing it right to the 45 limit. For disclosure, I am a lefty that averaged about 2-3 pick-offs a game, so I pushed the limit.

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Originally posted by rhobbs:
Umpires, as always, wanting to be bigger in the game than the game wants to let them be...

Incredible.

Guys, there are lots of things involving a good lefty move.

1. Just like a RH, timing needs to be varied. Throw in a slide step to keep them from going on first move, vary hold time, vary your knee lift. Pause at knee lift and don't pause, break the plane of the back of the rubber and don't break the plane.

2. Your "step" towards first must be"direct" which has been defined as 45 degs but its up to the ump what 45 is. 2 umps and you can go a bit beyond or maybe a bit less as he's looking from a different perspective. 3 umps and you better be more towards first than home.

3. Your wind up and bringing your foot behind the rubber means you need to go home. And if you just knee lift without preloading hips (foot ahead of rubber) you'll have a bit less velocity. Vary it.

4. Have first base practice catching a pick off throw and go to second as the only true way to steal on a good LHP is to go on first move, take your chances and make the team go 1-3-6 for the put out.

5. The rules hold true for a RHP to 3rd butwhat's the point, the runner isn't going anywhere unless a squeeze and the best defense to a squeeze is high and tight (actually at the batters nose).

Harv

Taught one of our big RH a good balk move yesterday. just a slight flex in the left knee before he picks. It's gonna be realllll effective.

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Originally posted by ironhorse:
Taught one of our big RH a good balk move yesterday. just a slight flex in the left knee before he picks. It's gonna be realllll effective.

Around here it would be real effective in getting balks called.

Not gonna happen with a 2 man crew. Probably not even with a 4 man cause it that good. I love cheating and getting away with it.

Now if it was one of your well-trained crews I'm sure there's no way they would miss it. You may even be able to see it from 3 western states over. but we probably have a lesser caliber around here.....

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Originally posted by Jimmy03:

quote:

Originally posted by ironhorse:
Taught one of our big RH a good balk move yesterday. just a slight flex in the left knee before he picks. It's gonna be realllll effective.

Around here it would be real effective in getting balks called.

Do we really need Barney Fife and the Balk Police in a thread devoted to coaching and instructing deceptive pickoff moves?

If a move is getting balked, dial it back.
If not, it's good to go.

I have no issue with a coach teaching a "balk move." It's been done for years. What I have an issue with is a coach teaching a balk move and then getting p!ssed and in my grill when it gets called.

The better coaches I've had the pleasure to work with, when their pitcher gets caught on a move like this, will come out and say, "Hey Jim, what did he do?" After as short explanation, they smile and go back and sit down. They just wanted to know if the got busted or the ump saw something else.

The less successful coaches will come out and argue that they player didn't make that move, knowing full well that he did. Some will take this to the verge of an ejection. Those are the guys I have an issue with. If you going to take the chance with a balk move, you have to be willing to accept the consequences.

My purpose in this thread was to illustrate and warn that, in my opinion, that is an easy to call balk and pitchers around here don't get away with it.

As regards your complaint, We accept and deal with coaches comments on the umpire board. I didn't realize that umpires were not allowed to comment on the coaches board even when providing a tip on a balk move.

If you don't care to read an umpire's opinion on a subject, don't.

quote:

Originally posted by ironhorse:
Not gonna happen with a 2 man crew. Probably not even with a 4 man cause it that good. I love cheating and getting away with it.

Now if it was one of your well-trained crews I'm sure there's no way they would miss it. You may even be able to see it from 3 western states over. but we probably have a lesser caliber around here.....

I think you might be underestimating a two man crew. On the grass with R1, I'm focusing on the body of the pitcher and in perfect position to see that knee flex. Now if there is also R2 or R3, it will be harder to see

Is this "a slight flex in the left knee" prior to a pick (RHP)? It's slo-mo. At game-speed, as viewed by an umpire, it probably would happen too fast to be noticed....is it enough to get an occasional R1 to lean?

http://www.youtube.com/profile...#p/u/187/jhcwC0aHWZw

By comparison, here's a RHP with virtually no knee flex (wait about 10 secs. for slo-mo version)

http://www.youtube.com/user/la...search/4/UsA91ktziK0

Both are jump moves, not jab moves.

quote:

Originally posted by Jimmy03:
I have no issue with a coach teaching a "balk move." It's been done for years. What I have an issue with is a coach teaching a balk move and then getting p!ssed and in my grill when it gets called.

Agreed. If my kid gets called for something I taught I'd probably walk out and talk to the umpire with a s-eating grin and feign ignorance. And then compliment him for catching it, cause that means he's one of the better umps around here.

I'll never get mad at a cop for giving me a speeding ticket when I know I'm going too fast.