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Anyone read the Front page story in Collegiate Baseball magazine for January 8, 2010?

Little League = Big Money, while millions of people volunteer their time for this organization, a handful of people earn substantial salaries.

Little League generated $23.8 million in revenue and spent $5.8 million on salaries for FY-2008.

Do you know HOW many Full-time folks are American Legion Baseball? 1 and 1/2 ... Yes ... 1.5 Full-time Employees. Mr. Jim Quinlan and a PT secretary.

How 'bout that, amazing!

Why was this topic closed?
http://hsbaseballweb.com/eve/f...16002781/m/980107322
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The original poster had an agenda he would not let go of in that thread and a couple of others. He was out to bash LL. I'm not going into the details. But if you look at Legion versus LL they are structured differently. LL is a much larger worldwide program to promote getting little kids into baseball. LL often brings baseball to places around the world who could not afford a program without money from Williamsport. Legion isn't a world wide program or a girl's program. Also due to dealing with little kids LL spends a lot of time on researching safety issues.

Very often the people who write these articles (Legion v. LL) haven't done their homework very well. Who cares who makes what as long as it for the benefit of the kids? LL is a non profit. The money goes back into the program.
Last edited by RJM
I was a little put off by the OP's coyness, and strongly disagreed with the argument about whether those people were overpaid.

But none of that is more offensive than closing the thread merely because YOU found a poster to be uninformed or misled. If LL baseball is a good thing (and I'm sure it is), then it'll survive the scrutiny of open public debate without YOUR oversight.

I don't think any of the language or debate in this threat was beneath the standard allowed in other threads.
I hope the YOU and YOUR isn't directed at me for explaining why a moderator closed the thread. It wasn't just that thread. The original poster opened three threads on the issue. I'm not rereading the closed thread referenced. I remember one of them being a relentless attack on LL rather than a debate.
Last edited by RJM
quote:
Originally posted by Coach Milburn:

Do you know HOW many Full-time folks are American Legion Baseball? 1 and 1/2 ... Yes ... 1.5 Full-time Employees. Mr. Jim Quinlan and a PT secretary.

How 'bout that, amazing!



So where does all the money from Legion dues go and how much does the one full time Employee make?

Maybe if Legion Baseball had more of a professional structure, they would get back to be more of a force in high school summer baseball....
Last edited by Homerun04
quote:
Originally posted by Homerun04:
quote:
Originally posted by Coach Milburn:

Do you know HOW many Full-time folks are American Legion Baseball? 1 and 1/2 ... Yes ... 1.5 Full-time Employees. Mr. Jim Quinlan and a PT secretary.

How 'bout that, amazing!



So where does all the money for Legion dues go and how much does the one full time Employee make?

Maybe if Legion Baseball had more of a professional structure, they would get back to be more of a force in high school summer baseball....
Legion is dying in my area. Anyone with aspiration to play at least high level D3 is playing showcase ball. At a game I asked a sportswriter assigned to the game how many 82+ fastballs he sees. His response was not many.
Personally as we head into 2010 I would hope that the "tyranny of dictatorship", removing threads, editing peoples posts, and dictating to people what they can or cannot say ceases on the site---it would be great to return to good old days of "heated" debate--no name calling -- just solid debate as adults expressed their opinions--
quote:
Originally posted by YoungGunDad:
quote:


Originally posted by wraggArm:

Hopefully the person who closed it really had a more appropriate reason.



Wragg, you can be rest assured of one thing. Whatever HSBBW Moderator closed it, they did in FACT have an appropriate reason I'm sure. I don't know of one trigger-happy Moderator on here.

You're right YoungGun, but an explanation usually proceeded the other closures. Just nice to have it. Cool
I'm usually the last one to defend Williamsport. But to compare LL to Legion is truly apples to oranges.

LL is run largely by parents with young children. That kind of organization needs strong central management. It's alao an international organization dealing with several different nations is no small feat.

Legion features much more mature players with coaches who are almost never parents. Management is taken on by each Post and by the district structures. There really is no need for a national organization beyond occasional revision of the rule book and coordinating the national tourney.

Also, there must be dozens of Little Leaguers for every Legion player in any given year.

I do think LL is over managed and that Williamsport would do well by its organization if it loosened its grip quite a few notches. There are way too many "rules for the sake of rules", rules that make no common sense but that serve primarily to annoy. But I can see why it would need a much larger super structure to run itself.
Unlike many here I am a LL and Legion fan and could care less what or how the organizations spend their money. We have 700 kids between our local LL and 6 Babe Ruth/Legion teams who compete at various levels and ages. Contrary to the belief of many, 95% of these kids will not go on to play college baseball. They will however make friends, learn teamwork skills, exercise, have fun, and be part of the finest game in America. If any one here who dislikes LL/Legion can find a cheaper form of social entertainment, I'm all ears.
Last edited by rz1
As a former LL President, I really could care less how they spend there money. They are very affordably
priced for a family to play baseball. My sons cost
170$ for both to play last spring. My 8 y/o played 18 games with a uniform for 85$ My 12 y/o played
25 regular season games, 3 TOC games and 7 allstar games.35 games and two uniforms for 85$
My 12 y/o then played travelball July until November
2 complete uniforms and 65 games for 700$.
Now I know not every family can afford that much on
baseball especially now, but there are familys that
cannot even afford 85$ and our LL never turns players away over money. Just my 2 cents.
quote:
Originally posted by YoungGunDad:

Wragg, you can be rest assured of one thing. Whatever HSBBW Moderator closed it, they did in FACT have an appropriate reason I'm sure. I don't know of one trigger-happy Moderator on here.


Don't worry, buddy...my rest was already "assured", and not in any jeopardy of being lost over one of your closed threads. But if RJM's explanation of why this thread was closed is accurate, I'd say "trigger-happy" is an excellent choice of words.
I was taken aback with the big money that LL brings in. If I remember during the WS games, they state how it's all volunteer, but that is somewhat misleading, is it not based on the article in Collegiate Baseball?

As for a former player and coach in American Legion Baseball, it can be stated, that ALB is truly the only baseball organization that is nearly 100% volunteer.

If I recall correctly, there is NO player fee mandated from National Headquarters for players to play. If I understand correctly, it's FREE to play based on information from National Headquarters but an individual team can charge a fee based on the amount of support they get from their respective legion post.

ALB is making an epic leap forward this year folks! Look for ALB to start getting more coaches and players back that have ventured off to other venues.
quote:
Originally posted by rz1:
Unlike many here I am a LL and Legion fan and could care less what or how the organizations spend their money. We have 700 kids between our local LL and 6 Babe Ruth/Legion teams who compete at various levels and ages. Contrary to the belief of many, 95% of these kids will not go on to play college baseball. They will however make friends, learn teamwork skills, exercise, have fun, and be part of the finest game in America. If any one here who dislikes LL/Legion can find a cheaper form of social entertainment, I'm all ears.


If I understand correctly, ALB is 100% free from the Nat'l headquarters perspective to play. An individual team can charge a fee at their own discretion.

ALB, by far the best bang for your buck!

It's FREE to play as a player.

From my perspective ... ALB is truly the only nearly 100% volunteer baseball organization in the WORLD!
Last edited by MILBY
quote:
it's FREE to play based on information from National Headquarters but an individual team can charge a fee based on the amount of support they get from their respective legion post.
There isn't a Legion post in sight in our area. It's $300 for 21 Legion games or 17 Junior Legion games plus whatever possible playoff games, for the program my son would be eligible to play. The team doesn't have a sponsor. From 13U to 16U travel it was $500 for about fifty games.

LL was $75 for what turned out to be 32 games when he was eleven and twelve.
Last edited by RJM
"ALB is making an epic leap forward this year folks! Look for ALB to start getting more coaches and players back that have ventured off to other venues"
How so. What is Legion planning to do that makes you say this. By the way I love both LL and Legion. Also, our post charges players nothing to play, i believe they pay for their hat and socks and have seen that waived in certain circumstances.
Me, I like baseball in any venue. More power to all of them.

LL plays a very important role. It is intended to be recreational, so that really anyone can play and enjoy the game, regardless of ability. Even the best players benefit from being out there with their schoolmates.

Legion is fine by me. There was a time when it was THE summer outlet for the HS player. Those days are gone and not coming back. Legion simply cannot compete with travel ball in terms of offering scouting opportunities to the college bound player. But Legion still offers a strong playing experience to a lot of HS age guys. Gotta love that.

I don't get the point of arguing one vs. the other. Both serve valuable roles. They aren't even competitors, since LL's Senior and Big League divisions are very very weak and no threat to Legion ball at all. I don't see why we cannot appreciate them both. A lot of families enjoy both, at different stages of their sons' lives.
since LL's Senior and Big League divisions are very very weak and no threat to Legion ball at all. I don't see why we cannot appreciate them both. A lot of families enjoy both, at different stages of their sons' lives.

---------------------------------------------------

i think all youth ball serves a purpose, affordability is the key. bigger than that is a place for kids to play and stay out of trouble.

who wouldn't want to go to the sr. LL world series in maine, very beutiful part of the country.

http://worldseries.bangorinfo.com/
LL was more than baseball. It was a community event. Since the food was good people would sometimes have dinner at the park on off nights. The parents would sit around socializing and half watching the games while the kids would be playing behind the outfield fence or in the batting cages.
Isn't any venue from tee ball to 18U that gets kids on the field a good one?

In our area the Legion programs keep telling anyone who will listen the quality of ball is just as good as any travel/showcase level as the numbers continue to dwindle. The Junior Legion kids show up for high school ball less prepared to face tough competition than 15U travel players. The four best players on my son's high school team played 16U when they were fourteen or fifteen.
Last edited by RJM
As someone who was on the board of the local little league a few years back, I definitely have a bias for Little League.

Little League has a rule that you cannot require a fee to play - every child who cannot afford the suggested registration fee must be allowed to play for free.

Is Little League great baseball and the highest form of 12U?

Nope - but the various organizations that are often compared to it have very different rules around the formation of leagues/teams. Comparing little league to 12U travel is like comparing a public high school to a 17U travel team. There is no question in my mind that my son's 17U travel team would have clobbered his high school team - but then again, his 17U team would have clobbered any high school team I have ever seen. It is just apples and oranges.

As for Legion ball, I also think that it is good baseball - but again, not comparable to high end travel ball.

My opinion is that getting kids out and playing the game we all love is the important thing - that is where the next generation of baseball lovers will come from.
quote:
Little League has a rule that you cannot require a fee to play - every child who cannot afford the suggested registration fee must be allowed to play for free.



That is correct but the staff at Williamsport does not send over the fee. The fee must come out of the operating budget of the local league.

When I was involved in our local Little League we had to incorporate the number of anticipated sponsorship dollars needed into the league fees of the able to pay members.

I think the LL dollar reserves are high but the organization itself is outstanding. EVERYONE GETS TO PLAY! Every child regardless of level of ability gets to develop love for the game of baseball at the community level.
quote:


Originally posted by rz1:

quote:
Originally posted by YoungGunDad:
This Buddy? He was one of my favorites!


I thought he was speaking of Buddy Sorrell aka Morey Amsterdam from the Dick Van Dykke show


I'm sure some posters are saying "who are those old guys?"



Ok RZ, trivia quiz for you, you old dinosaur.

What was the name of the um, "female" that is standing beside Uncle Jed in the picture on the show? Her show character name.
quote:
Originally posted by YoungGunDad:

Ok RZ, trivia quiz for you, you old dinosaur.

What was the name of the um, "female" that is standing beside Uncle Jed in the picture on the show? Her show character name.


That would be Jethro Bodine's sister, Jethrene Bodine. Both were played by Max Baer, Jr., son of boxer Max Baer.
Last edited by Jimmy03
quote:
Originally posted by Coach Milburn:

It's FREE to play as a player.

From my perspective ... ALB is truly the only nearly 100% volunteer baseball organization in the WORLD!


In many, if not most, areas local ALB charges its players. Also, I know of several areas in which ALB pays its Senior coachess.

Both LL and ALB serve a purpose, but times have changed. In most areas neither provide the most competitive experience for those players (parents) who believe they are destined for college or pro ball.
quote:
THe players at our school are forced to play Legion; if they choose to play travel, they will not play on the HS team. The other schools in the district allow their players to play travel and they ALL place more players in College and in the Draft.



In Virginia, this would violate VHSL rules. Someone should investigate whether Florida has a similar rule barring HS coaches from requiring certain playing commitments outside of the approved season.

What you need is for a few of the players your coach truly would never think of doing without to break ranks, as a group. And if he even thought of doing anything to them, someone should assure that he lost his job. In the alternative, he should be approached in advance and, if unrepentant, you should go over his head until you get a sensible person. Which hopefully is available to you at some level.

A HS coach should never have the power to tell you what to do year round, especially if he damages your college prospects in the process. He may be one who thinks "all that travel ball is just a waste of your money"; yes I know the type. But what he thinks should not matter. It is your life, therefore your decision -- not his. If he doesn't see that, he must be made to live with it whether he likes it or not.
Lord have mercy are all black and white pictures of people this scary? These people are frightening! I like color pictures.......

I think the point of the original poster is that Little League is not the "volunteer" -- free from profit organization that many people might believe them to be... I'm not saying LL is trying to pull the wool over anyone's eyes, but when Dad & Mom pay the registration fees and see all the wonderful parents volunteering you don't associate Little League with CEO salaries.

Like many other facets of the game Little League has changed..... No one can dispute that it has become very commercialized with the widely televised LLWS, which I VERY much enjoy watching.

I do believe that Legion has tried to remain true to it's roots in many area's, including costs.. It is undeniable the impact that the showcase circuit's had on Legion, although I have seen a few of the top showcase players also play legion at the same time, which helped to create very good legion teams...
quote:
you don't associate Little League with CEO salaries.
Whether LL has a lot of volunteers or not, it's a huge, worldwide organization. You're not going to send a volunteer to Bristol to negotiate a tv contract with ESPN/ABC and their lawyers. The median salary for NFP CEO's in 2008 was 418K. Keener made 236K in 2007.
Last edited by RJM
quote:
think the point of the original poster is that Little League is not the "volunteer" -- free from profit organization that many people might believe them to be... I'm not saying LL is trying to pull the wool over anyone's eyes, but when Dad & Mom pay the registration fees and see all the wonderful parents volunteering you don't associate Little League with CEO salaries.


i think your right, it's the perception of volunteer's that throws most people off.

but would LL be what it is today if it was just a bunch of parents getting together ? isn't that how it started ?
quote:
but would LL be what it is today if it was just a bunch of parents getting together ?

Despite what some people think about LL it's a growing organization. LL recognized travel is an issue. They loosened the reins on LL'ers playing travel. They've grown internationally and with softball to offset loss of players.

What would LL be if it hadn't become what it is? It would be an organization in decliine like Legion ball. In our area travel is draining the talent out of Legion from 13U to 18U. Legion doesn't have a competitive stategy. They just tell people Legion is better ball and slam travel ball as a waste of money. Yet, whenever I asked to schedule a doubleheader with our 16U team comprised mostly of fifteen year olds they made excuses to avoid playing us. The same thing happened when I wanted the 14U team to play the Junior Legion team.

I don't hate Legion. I played Legion when it was the best place to play. But any organization that stands still will be passed over time by progress. Locally throw daddyball into the equation. The head coach started his sons at short and center. Neither one got even a D3 look. Two kids who played short and center he cut are now playing college ball. The coach only has four more boys to come through the program. The two assistants who just signed on both have boys coming through starting next year. The Junior Legion team has a coach with one year of experience twenty times over.
Last edited by RJM
quote:
Originally posted by fsmjunior:
THe players at our school are forced to play Legion; if they choose to play travel, they will not play on the HS team. The other schools in the district allow their players to play travel and they ALL place more players in College and in the Draft.


I understand the coach's reasoning. He wants his kids playing together as much as possible.

Maybe, it depends you live. You must live in baseball heaven. Here, I can think of only one player who falls within the local Legion boundaries that was drafted within the last five years.

Also, in this area, one travel team can draw players from PA, NJ, MD and DE. Legion is limited to a few school districts and/or zip codes.
quote:
Originally posted by Vicarious Dad:
quote:
Originally posted by fsmjunior:
THe players at our school are forced to play Legion; if they choose to play travel, they will not play on the HS team. The other schools in the district allow their players to play travel and they ALL place more players in College and in the Draft.


I understand the coach's reasoning. He wants his kids playing together as much as possible.

Maybe, it depends you live. You must live in baseball heaven. Here, I can think of only one player who falls within the local Legion boundaries that was drafted within the last five years.

Also, in this area, one travel team can draw players from PA, NJ, MD and DE. Legion is limited to a few school districts and/or zip codes.


To be clear, the 7 players drafted were from our HS district which includes 1 1/2 counties. We are in FL 6A schools.

As for getting a group to go elsewhere, great idea. Putting to reality is another story. The head coach does not coach the Legion Team, it is his assistant. The HC is also the Athletic Director, NICE!
quote:
Originally posted by Coach Milburn:
Any team that plays ALB can have an "outside" sponsor, the team just has to obey the ALB rules.

There is a misunderstanding by many, the perception is that you have to be sponsored by a legion post, not true, any team may play Legion baseball BUT has to follow the rules!


http://www.legion.org/baseball
There are teams in our area who have sponsors. Others don't. Our local team lost their sponsor a couple of years ago.
I sure hope Collegiate Baseball does a follow-up story to compare LL to Babe Ruth League/Cal Ripken League and American Legion Baseball. These leagues have been around the longest.

This Collegiate Baseball article has opened up some folks eyes very wide.

"Lucrative life of a non-profit"

In some folks eyes, another way or loophole for folks to get one over the system.

Just my own respectfully shared opinion.
Last edited by MILBY
There are tons of non-profits that are "lucrative." I would imagine that if you check the management salaries for NPR Radio, American Heart Association, PBS, American Cancer Society, etc., you will find plenty of people making six-figure salaries -- and in some instances, perhaps more.

Who cares if a few Little League high-ups make a bundle? Their expertise is making it possible for thousands of kids around the world to play in well-organized leagues for a relative pittance.
quote:
Originally posted by 20dad:
Any team that plays ALB can have an "outside" sponsor, the team just has to obey the ALB rules

----------------------------------------------------

a few years ago the maine team, nova seafood went to the world series. did quite well as i remember.
I played for Caldwell Post which no longer exists. That Nova Seafood team was the sons of a lot of former Caldwell teammates and opponents from Andrews Post. Ryan Flaherty played at Vanderbilt and was a first round supplemental of the Cubs a couple of years ago. For those in baseball circles you may know or know of his dad as a very successful college coach. Andrew Giobbi also played at Vanderbilt. Mark Powers played at Maine. Ryan Piacentini played for D3 champion Trinity (CT). A couple of kids I didn't know their dads and can't remember their names pitched D1 in the CAA. Three more played at Southern Maine which is a top D3 program. There were nine future college players on that team, five D1 and four D3.

One of my memories of playing for Caldwell was in regions. Steve Balboni (Manchester Post) hit a ball the other way. As we were running up the gap to the fence I yelled, "Is that bleeper ever going to come down?" He cleared the clubhouse behind rightfield to the opposite field.
Last edited by RJM
quote:
Originally posted by baseballboydeuce:
thats wild how much they make


Although we had this discussion earlier in the year, it has reared its ugly head again.

Not for Profits MUST pay well to get quality leaders. HOWEVER, this is not really that much money, some are acting as if they are making Million dollar salaries.

YMCA Executive Directors make way more than this just as one example.

Yet another example of this fairly new agenda nationwide to despise anyone doing well.
Last edited by fsmjunior

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