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LL "Hitting" Strategy - Bush or Good Baseball?

SandmanSandman500+ posts
You're facing one of the best teams in the [8-team Majors division] league, your team had its ace on the mound for 85 pitches (6 innings) and is still behind 4-2 going into the bottom of the 6th. Your opponent pitched their #2 for 4 innings and brought in their #1 (a bit faster) in the 5th (so he's still quite fresh). Your 5th batter leads off the inning w/ a bunt for a single (good idea, as you need runners).

NOW... like most lineups, your 6-9 batters are younger, newer players, most of whom struck out their last time up (and 8 & 9 did so vs. pitcher #1). What do you instruct your hitters to do?
1. Go up there looking for a good pitch to hit, but laying off the questionable strikes, w/ the rationale that "we may win or lose, but if these kids can succeed in this situation, it will do wonders for their baseball confidence"?
2. Tell them to "take until you get a strike" (hoping to get walks and wild pitches)?
3. Tell them to fake bunt, waving the bat over the plate continuously, in an effort to distract/rattle the pitcher enough to induce enough wild pitches to get a walk and/or move the runner on 1st into scoring position?
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SandmanSandman500+ posts
Me neither, but it worked (against us). Our pitcher ended up hitting the 3rd batter of the inning (w/ 1 out), then they did this BS fake bunt bat-waving again on the next couple batters and induced enough wild pitches to tie the game.

If these were players on the big-field, I think the pitcher might launch the next pitch over the batter's HEAD to send a message that this garbage is better left in LL, where the win-at-all-costs coaches care more about the "W" than giving a kid a chance to be a hero w/ his bat.

My 2 cents.
O Orlando1,000+ posts
Unless your 6-9 batters have the plate discipline to recognize a strike (particularly one coming at them faster than they're used to), I wouldn't endorse #1 as a way to build confidence....or runs.

I would go with #2, even though it cuts their available strikes. Many pitchers that age don't have enough control to get three called strikes and (at that age) many of the younger batters are smaller as are, of course, their strike zones.

For my part, I detest the bat waving horsepatootie. A hundred years ago when I was coaching that age, a rival coach used that tactic all the time. (I used it as a tool to train my pitchers to look beyond the batter and only reach for their target, useful not only in this situation, but when the Big Hitter was distracting them.) I believe it tells the kids that you have no faith that they could legitimately hit the ball and therefore they need to beg for a walk. And that, as a coach, you find it easier to tell a kid to bat-wave rather than taking the time to work on the player's hitting skills.
SandmanSandman500+ posts
I concur wholeheartedly, Orlando.

I could've done the same thing w/ my bottom of the order, largely comprised of 10YOs. But I didn't (and don't). And I wouldn't trade the gleaming smile of one of them who got his first Majors hit in that game, off their ACE, a scorching line drive double down the RF line! Smile THAT kid's confidence is growing.

There are probably many reasons that our team is usually considered the best hitting team in the league - but bat-waving sure as heck isn't one of them! Wink
piaa_umppiaa_ump5,000+ posts
As an umpire, I dislike the bat waving approach......

I have known umpires who would tell batters that if they waved the bat that they were making it difficult for the umpire to determine if he offered at a pitch....then proceed to call the next pitch a strike...

even though there is no rule against it, I still dont like it.
PH Pat H100+ posts
So if you're the team batting, and have the bottom 1/2 coming up down by 2 in the bottom 1/2 of the last inning, are you just going to "hope for the best"? I also think that stacking the top 1/2 of the line up puts you at a potential disadvantge, offensively, in the later innings. It's just the way I manage and my approach. Sorry to stay off topic. I won't respond to this anymore in this thread. Wink
CADadCADad5,000+ posts
1. I've had kids surprise me too many times to take the bat out of their hands. Now if the count gets to 2-0 I might be inclined to have them take a pitch in that situation but not before that.

As an umpire bat waving widens my strike zone considerably and it better be pulled back very obviously or I'll consider it to be offering at a pitch.
Last edited by CADad
SandmanSandman500+ posts
quote:
Originally posted by Sandman:
I concur wholeheartedly, Orlando.

I could've done the same thing w/ my bottom of the order, largely comprised of 10YOs. But I didn't (and don't). And I wouldn't trade the gleaming smile of one of them who got his first Majors hit in that game, off their ACE, a scorching line drive double down the RF line! Smile THAT kid's confidence is growing.


Had an opportunity similar to this Monday night. We're down 4-2 in the top of the 6th and batting. We get the bases loaded and our 2 10YOs coming up. Could we try some bat waggling and the perpetual 'take' sign? Sure. Could we even try a suicide squeeze? Suppose. Instead, I let them both hit away. The first one hit a GB out to 2B, scoring the runner from 3rd. (Why their defense wasn't in I don't know?) The second one then hit a bloop single between the pitcher and 2B and somehow scored both runs, giving us the lead.

You should've heard the cheers from the stands for the little guys getting the job done in that situation. THAT's what'll keep 'em playing! NOT bat waggling and trying to induce wild pitches and passed balls by distracting the pitcher/catcher.
D deaconspoint100+ posts
quote:
Originally posted by Sandman:
What age Ross? Would you have LL kids do this? I've told my kids to "come inside on 'em" (but don't TRY to hit them) when they do that.


Do you think that telling a 10-11 to "come inside" may be part of the reason they throw wild pitches and the other team scores runs in this situation? I'm not judging Sandman. I'm not in your league and can't say exactly what I would do in the situation. I just think my instruction might be more along the lines of, throw your pitch, hit the mitt, and sit this kid down. At that age feeling he needs to control himself well enough to throw inside and not hit a kid could really get a pitcher worked up I would think. JMO

I admire your stance on the batting order and letting kids hit. It's those opportunities that will keep the team working together and keep those kids in the game. They want to hit the ball just like everyone else and will in time. Anyone can take the easy road and get around them. What I love about that situation is that when they do hit the other teams are usually on their heels and good things happen.

Have fun!!

Tim
CallawayCallaway500+ posts
"What age Ross? Would you have LL kids do this?"

At the age that the other team starts playing bush league. Bean 'em.

Our boys watch a lot of baseball on TV and listen to commentators. They know when the "appropriate" message needs to be sent and they do it.

As a coach, I don't have a problem with it. I don't encourage it, and I certainly don't tell them to do it, but I don't discourage it either. It sends the message to play baseball and play clean or else. It works.
D deaconspoint100+ posts
quote:
Originally posted by Callaway:

At the age that the other team starts playing bush league. Bean 'em.

Our boys watch a lot of baseball on TV and listen to commentators. They know when the "appropriate" message needs to be sent and they do it.

As a coach, I don't have a problem with it. I don't encourage it, and I certainly don't tell them to do it, but I don't discourage it either. It sends the message to play baseball and play clean or else. It works.


This is a joke right?

Sandman,

Like I said, I am not trying to judge. My point is just that at a young age these pitchers have a hard enough time hitting the mitt with runners on as it is. Throw in the bat waggling and taunts and it gets even worse. Now we tell them to throw inside, but don't hit the kid, but don't throw wild or the run will score and don't let the kid jack one on you. Maybe my kid is just different, but I think hi shair woudl catch on fire if he had to deal with all that.

Throw a good pitch, to the catcher who will catch the ball, and get this kid out. Don't change what you do well just because the kid at the plate is waggling his bat. At that point he has you where he wants you instead of the other way around. Prove him wrong.
SandmanSandman500+ posts
I agree that would be the goal deacon. However, what happens in reality is that the pitcher gets panicky and can't find the plate anyway. Smile So if he's likely to miss anyway (no matter how much coaches tell him "just hit the glove; don't worry about that waggling cr@p, etc."), why not also send a message in the process?
Last edited by Sandman
CallawayCallaway500+ posts
Sandman,

What if an opposing team has a pitcher that hits two or three of your batters? What do you do? Throw inside?

Not all of my pitchers would "answer" that situation because I have never told a pitcher to intentionally hit someone. But I know for sure that some would. Happened at a USSSA Tournament this weekend and when the guilty pitcher came to bat he took a FB in the ribs by one of our boys that was hit. I don't coach that team but I know the boy and I knew it was coming.

These boys all play Dixie as well and the same "rules" apply. They didn't start this as 13yo. They played this way as 11-12yo.

I don't want to give the impression that it happens a lot because it doesn't. But it does happen from time to time and even the casual baseball fan can usually figure out why.
D deaconspoint100+ posts
Because he's 12. And the batter is too. You want to send a message, have your pitchers prepared and strike the boys out. My team may go down, but it's going down on my terms, not letting some other coach dictate how my boys pitch.

It's not a perfect world and I realize the reality of the matter is that the kid gets flustered and misses with his pitches. That's something you can work on that will help him in these situations. Telling him to throw inside is having him play into the other coaches hands. Now you have a kids trying to throw inside to a catcher who probably doesn't handle that all that well anyway. You've just improved your chances of a passed ball by a large percentage when the kids batting should be quick outs.

Good luck this weekend. When the junk starts tell the kid to throw strikes. If he can't then you take him out and put in someone who can. Your guys are supposed to sit these kids down and they will. Let'em.
D deaconspoint100+ posts
quote:
Originally posted by Callaway:
The batter's coach isn't 12 and he is the one telling them to play bush league. If you are against beaning the batter than send a message and bean the coach! Smile


A voice of reason. Big Grin

You can't do anything about what the other guy tells his kids to do. You can only hold yourself and your kids to a higher standard and play your game. You're the better team or they wouldn't feel the need to use these tactics.

That's all the message that's needed.
C Coachric1,000+ posts
Hey Sandman. How are things in War-Rick. I'm from Da Hill myself. For future reference I would suggest a couple of things. Some mentioned the line-up. For many years at lower levels we would stagger our lineup. We never had a weak line-up because of that. You will always have 3-4 weaker hitters, so good hitter 1st, then every other is a weaker kid. We always had a big weak kid hitting 4th and the confidence usually came around because we called those boys Mr Cleanup. You can always rotate your lineup also. At this young level, don't expect too much. I haven't seen many who can hit their spots at 12, so just let 'em fire away. Challenge the hitters as a young pitcher, and tell the pitcher that. He will undoubtedly want the challenge. Then just play your game, or play the way it was meant to be played. These kids will always accept the challenges the game brings and by moving kids to different spots in the lineup, you create new challenges.

Orlando, I love any word that has "Patootie" in it.
SandmanSandman500+ posts
Coachric,

Ahh... The Hill. I lived in Providence for 6 years before our kids were in school. I miss the wonderful Italian food! Smile

Thanks for the ideas, but I have to agree w/ Callaway on this one too. I like to have my best hitters bunched up top to get as many ABs as possible. And we're leading the league in runs scored through 6 games (56); (unfortunately, we're also 7th of 8 in runs against at 50 Frown We just GIVE away 2-6 runs per game, mostly on mental errors, despite my constant reminders to "stay in the moment... know the situation... how many outs? Where are their runners? Where am I going if I get the ball?", etc.).

And now that we're several games into the season, our 10YOs who bat 7th/8th are starting to gain confidence. In the last 2 games, 2 of the 3 of them have had hits in crucial situations. But we've had 2 HRs the last 2 games too - out of the guys up top. And I'm thankful when there are runners on base in front of them.

Thanks again for the different opinion tho. Appreciate it.
Last edited by Sandman
C Coachric1,000+ posts
Yes, hard to argue with that logic when coaches are in it for the "W". Who cares how many runs the 12 yr olds score. You are supposed to be developing young men and teaching them something about the game and life. If you include those less talented, you may find that their confidence will grow and your team will improve. I've coached youth ball for 16 years as well as Juco and high school. After 32 yrs coaching I have concluded that we should be in it to make a difference in all of our players lives. I have seen many who didn't appear talented at first, end up playing high school ball and doing quite well. You are entitle to your opinions, but I am suggesting what worked for me.
Sand, good luck and if you get over to the fountain restaurant anytime soon, say hello to my buddy and owner, John Morocco. Tell him Rich F says hey.
piaa_umppiaa_ump5,000+ posts
I've done a lot of youth baseball in my time.....and I am an old time baseball guy.....so I understand....

but....in 12U ball

If a coach/player starts plunking players and I sniff it as even marginally intentional or retaliatory......warnings come quick and early and then I will have at least 2 adult ejections and 2 player ejections and they can resume the quest for plastic trophies minus these participants.....

Im sure you all may not agree with me and thats fine....but on a baseball field only my opinion counts..... I monitor all that goes on on the field....I can start to tell when things are heating up.....

I will handle it.....

Just my .02
CallawayCallaway500+ posts
quote:
Yes, hard to argue with that logic when coaches are in it for the "W". Who cares how many runs the 12 yr olds score.


Actually, I think staggering line-ups is about the dumbest thing there is in LL baseball? There is no logic to support it. As far as your "high and mighty" position that it doesn't develop the less talented kids. What are you talking about? Perhaps you never tried simple motivation. I would suggest that the desire to hit higher in the order has improved more kids batting averages than your PC nonsense.

I will not "punish" a boy that is hitting well by putting less talented kids in the top of the order. Where's the motivation? It's just stupid. ...And if you don't think kids care about where they hit in the order than you don't have a clue about kids.

My bottom of the order guys desperately want to move up and my top of the order guys desperately want to stay there. That's how kids improve coach, not by handing it to them. But you're probably one of those coaches that has group hugs and all sing Kumbaya after each game. Good for you.

We play baseball. Smile
Last edited by Callaway
SandmanSandman500+ posts
Callaway, you're so right. I moved a kid from 5th to 7th a couple games ago and he complained (to others) in the dugout, including his father, "Why am I 7th?!". Sure enough, the next game, he had 3 hits. I may bump him up to 6th now to give him something to still strive for.

Another kid who started out as a sub down ~6th in the order has been really hitting well; not always "hits", but hard hit balls. So I moved him up to 4th when our cleanup was slumping a bit. The kid got a hit or 2 in each of the next couple games and actually came up to me after the first one and said "Coach, thanks a lot for batting me 4th". (and he hadn't yet seen his parents, so they didn't put him up to it) Conversely, the kid I moved out of cleanup (just down 1) went on a tear the last 3 games w/ 3 doubles, a single or 2 and his first LL HR.

So I certainly agree that the lineup itself can be motivational. I tell my players at the preseason team/parent meeting that "if you hit, you stay in the lineup; if you improve hitting, you usually move up in it". And they KNOW that going in, and it seems to work.

YMMV.
Last edited by Sandman
C Coachric1,000+ posts
Callaway, never tried to sound high and mighty. Just giving my opinion of what worked for me over the years and I have had many successes and am proud of them. I am most proud of the young men who still seek me out to share a moment. That is my greatest reward for years of teaching young men about the game. Pc, you got the wrong guy here. I do believe in opportunity for all, and then they have to prove that they can handle it. When you begin working with older kids (I don't know if you have or do already) you will see what I mean. The importance we put on 12U is just amazing to me. Yes, it must seem important to the kids, but we must learn to handle it differently. Good luck in what you do, keep your name calling to yourself unless you know me, and finally I'm sure you will do what you think works best in the end.
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