What is more important with high school pitchers, learning to hit corners or learning to change up speeds with pitches? What would you focus on first?
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Why does it have to be one or the other? Assuming some potential for playing at a higher level they need to throw the fastball enough to keep developing it, working on both velocity and location. Assuming some competition at the HS level, and less than perfect command of the fastball, they need to work on changing speeds and being able to throw strikes with off speed pitches to be successful in HS games.
It probably wouldn't hurt to focus on fastball location for a few weeks and then to start working in the off speed pitches. A few scrimmages where they have to rely on the fastball only will let them know they have to locate it well to have some success and they'll also very quickly realize that they'll have to also change speeds to really pitch well. That approach is OK if all the pitchers are doing it, but if they are competing for a spot against pitchers who are throwing off speed pitches they need to have their off speed pitches ready to go.
It probably wouldn't hurt to focus on fastball location for a few weeks and then to start working in the off speed pitches. A few scrimmages where they have to rely on the fastball only will let them know they have to locate it well to have some success and they'll also very quickly realize that they'll have to also change speeds to really pitch well. That approach is OK if all the pitchers are doing it, but if they are competing for a spot against pitchers who are throwing off speed pitches they need to have their off speed pitches ready to go.
My initial reaction is depending what kind of competition you are playing, they are both very important unless you are throwing 90+. Good HS hitters will be able to hit fastballs no matter where you put them.
However, if I had to pick one to work on first, it would be location. The reason being is that if you can learn how to spot your fastball, you can take the same technique and use it to spot your off speed pitches when you start throwing them. Fastballs down the middle will get creamed at the varsity level where my son plays. However, he has beaten some very good teams with nothing other than well placed fastballs and changeups. Both need to be placed, or they will get hit. Therefore, I say work on location first.
However, if I had to pick one to work on first, it would be location. The reason being is that if you can learn how to spot your fastball, you can take the same technique and use it to spot your off speed pitches when you start throwing them. Fastballs down the middle will get creamed at the varsity level where my son plays. However, he has beaten some very good teams with nothing other than well placed fastballs and changeups. Both need to be placed, or they will get hit. Therefore, I say work on location first.
bballman,
Upper 80s with a bit of movement or downplane and good location will dominate all but the very elite HS hitters, even without an offspeed pitch. You just don't see that type of location from HS pitchers very often. I've only seen one HS pitcher who had really good location and he was effective throwing 80ish against top HS competition for a nationally ranked team. Of course he was also throwing offspeed pitches but he mostly relied on locating the fastball.
Later that summer he was somewhat less effective vs. Connie Mack competition in our area, as that tends to be a bit stronger than top HS competition.
Upper 80s with a bit of movement or downplane and good location will dominate all but the very elite HS hitters, even without an offspeed pitch. You just don't see that type of location from HS pitchers very often. I've only seen one HS pitcher who had really good location and he was effective throwing 80ish against top HS competition for a nationally ranked team. Of course he was also throwing offspeed pitches but he mostly relied on locating the fastball.
Later that summer he was somewhat less effective vs. Connie Mack competition in our area, as that tends to be a bit stronger than top HS competition.
Could be, but our region is pretty tough. There were a total of 23 D-1 signees and 4 players drafted out of our region. I know when my son threw too many fastballs, he got hit. He was throwing 82-84 with movement and location. One game he threw about 90% fastballs and got rocked. Another he did very well for 3 innings in relief mixing things up - 0 runs, 4th inning, almost all fastballs and had 4 singles hit off him to lose the game. Problem is, he was a freshman pitching varsity and was not comfortable enough to shake off the catcher yet.
On the other hand, he beat several other teams who had multiple D-1 signees and a couple of Draftees by mixing up his pitches. He went against a team that at the time was #3 in the state and threw almost all fastballs and changeups. Complete game, 71 pitches and lost 1-0. It is very important to mix things up as well as be able to locate.
On the other hand, he beat several other teams who had multiple D-1 signees and a couple of Draftees by mixing up his pitches. He went against a team that at the time was #3 in the state and threw almost all fastballs and changeups. Complete game, 71 pitches and lost 1-0. It is very important to mix things up as well as be able to locate.
Our league had 3 draftees sign and two or 3 who didn't sign. The league only had about a dozen D1 signees including the draftees, but not including the underclassmen who have committed. Depending on how you define the region of course we probably had hundreds of D1 signees.
There's location and there's location. Typically 6 players in a lineup at a good HS can't handle over about 85 or 86 mph. 8 or 9 out of 9 can't handle 87 or 88 located well. Location means hitting somewhere near the target pretty often and seldom missing in the middle of the plate. HS pitchers just don't do that, especially the harder throwers. A lot of big league pitchers don't do that.
At the area code games I watched 91 mph go right by kids who were totally overmatched and this was from a kid who didn't particularly have much of a breaking ball and at that point wasn't getting it over. These were the elite of the elite. A few of the fastballs were well located.
I'm not arguing about the importance of mixing up pitches and changing speeds. I'm just very used to people overestimating the ability of HS hitters to handle a good (not just fast) fastball.
I remember the kids telling me a few years ago about how they liked facing Robert Stock because he threw hard but didn't have location and how they had hit him pretty hard. I checked the stats and they lost 2-1 and only had a few hits and a lot of K's.
Heck, Jarrod Washburn threw about 90% fastballs at mostly 88-89 in the big leagues early in his career and was successful.
There's location and there's location. Typically 6 players in a lineup at a good HS can't handle over about 85 or 86 mph. 8 or 9 out of 9 can't handle 87 or 88 located well. Location means hitting somewhere near the target pretty often and seldom missing in the middle of the plate. HS pitchers just don't do that, especially the harder throwers. A lot of big league pitchers don't do that.
At the area code games I watched 91 mph go right by kids who were totally overmatched and this was from a kid who didn't particularly have much of a breaking ball and at that point wasn't getting it over. These were the elite of the elite. A few of the fastballs were well located.
I'm not arguing about the importance of mixing up pitches and changing speeds. I'm just very used to people overestimating the ability of HS hitters to handle a good (not just fast) fastball.
I remember the kids telling me a few years ago about how they liked facing Robert Stock because he threw hard but didn't have location and how they had hit him pretty hard. I checked the stats and they lost 2-1 and only had a few hits and a lot of K's.
Heck, Jarrod Washburn threw about 90% fastballs at mostly 88-89 in the big leagues early in his career and was successful.
If I'm a coach, I pitch the guy with the best velocity who can also locate.
I'f I'm a pitcher, I worry about velocity first and control second. But it's not an either-or proposition. Those with the best velocity usually have the best control, too.. perfecting mechanics and a repeatable arm action result in both.
I'f I'm a pitcher, I worry about velocity first and control second. But it's not an either-or proposition. Those with the best velocity usually have the best control, too.. perfecting mechanics and a repeatable arm action result in both.
Coach:
CADad is spot on, however it depends on how the kid or kids are throwing. If they are working high 80's or low 90's then D'oh work location.
In my book velocity - velocity - velocity should be the number one developmental focus for a young HS pitcher....since most don't have it.
CADad is spot on, however it depends on how the kid or kids are throwing. If they are working high 80's or low 90's then D'oh work location.
In my book velocity - velocity - velocity should be the number one developmental focus for a young HS pitcher....since most don't have it.
CADad, we're not far apart on what we are saying. I said 90+, you are basically saying 87 or 88+. I am not sure where the OP's son sits, but I would venture if he is asking about location or change of speed, he is not one of those throwing 88+. If a HS pitcher is throwing low 80's or below, he better be spot on with location and have an off speed pitch as well. My son fell into that category during the HS season. He was hitting 82-84 and when he didn't mix it up, he wound up getting hit. Sometimes hard and sometimes just a group of singles. He pitched against one of the kids in the AFLAC game. In the last inning, the kid hit an opposite field 310 ft HR off him on a fastball my son said was about a foot off the plate below the knees. That's why I say location won't totally matter unless you are throwing real gas. I'll agree with 88+.
BTW, when I say our region, that is basically our division for HS ball. We are in AAAAA - largest classification - region 6. That includes about 10 schools in the northern part of our county.
BTW, when I say our region, that is basically our division for HS ball. We are in AAAAA - largest classification - region 6. That includes about 10 schools in the northern part of our county.
quote:Originally posted by Coach Yosten:
What is more important with high school pitchers, learning to hit corners or learning to change up speeds with pitches? What would you focus on first?
Command your best stuff. Do not compromise stuff for command. IMHO.
If you cannot command your best stuff then work at it. Balance throughout your delivery...a delivery you can repeat......Control your body.......
Develop the fastball. Then learn to command it. Your best stuff is the fastball.
Don't complicate pitching. I learned early in my career that the most important thing in hitting was timing. If a batter does not have timing (no matter how great his swing is) he can not make good contact on any ball. So if timing is most important in hitting then throwing off that timing is one of the most important things to being a good pitcher. 87% of walks turn into runs and add an average of 6 additional pitches to your total pitch count. Yet making a batter put the ball in play results in an out 70% of the time. Teach a pitcher to command and pinpoint pitches at various speeds. Velocity development will come with age, genetics and some adjustments in mechanics. Increases in velocity will come in small chunks, but increase in control and command of a game can make huge differences in a becoming a winning pitcher!
Always remember this... Lessons can not improve control... lessons improve mechanics. The only way to improve control is through repetition.
There are very few programs that focus on control yet it is one of most important skill a pitcher wanting to progress to a higher level can do. You may want to check out the SNIPER Pitching program which progressively develops a pitchers control at all ages. It is kind of like earning a black belt through testing at increasingly difficult levels. You can see how it works by going to the SNIPER Pitching Program website.
As for increasing velocity, there are some proven research on the benefits of throwing a lighter ball (not too light) to increase muscle twitch, thus increasing arm speed. This mixed with a program of long toss will help develop those small chunks of velocity most pitchers are looking for.
Most importantly, ALWAYS properly stretch and warm up the arm properly before doing any type of workouts. Stretching should be done at three different times.... ALWAYS. These three times are:
- prior to pitching,
- thirty minutes to an hour after pitching and icing an arm,
- the following morning after jogging to the point of sweating for a minimum of 15 minutes.
If you don't have a healthy arm nothing else really matters.
Always remember this... Lessons can not improve control... lessons improve mechanics. The only way to improve control is through repetition.
There are very few programs that focus on control yet it is one of most important skill a pitcher wanting to progress to a higher level can do. You may want to check out the SNIPER Pitching program which progressively develops a pitchers control at all ages. It is kind of like earning a black belt through testing at increasingly difficult levels. You can see how it works by going to the SNIPER Pitching Program website.
As for increasing velocity, there are some proven research on the benefits of throwing a lighter ball (not too light) to increase muscle twitch, thus increasing arm speed. This mixed with a program of long toss will help develop those small chunks of velocity most pitchers are looking for.
Most importantly, ALWAYS properly stretch and warm up the arm properly before doing any type of workouts. Stretching should be done at three different times.... ALWAYS. These three times are:
- prior to pitching,
- thirty minutes to an hour after pitching and icing an arm,
- the following morning after jogging to the point of sweating for a minimum of 15 minutes.
If you don't have a healthy arm nothing else really matters.
quote:Velocity development will come with age, genetics and some adjustments in mechanics.
Velocity correlates with age, genetics and adjustment in mechanics, but these factors don't guarantee it. In my experience, velocity development must include a program that focuses on learning how to compete with the fastball (primarily), long-toss, proper nutrition, plyometrics and qualified mechanical instruction.
My experience in h.s. was that most pitchers competed by throwing offspeed stuff. That's great, and it worked, but 90% of the ones that went onto the next level were high K and velocity guys.
quote:Originally posted by Bum:quote:Velocity development will come with age, genetics and some adjustments in mechanics.
Velocity correlates with age, genetics and adjustment in mechanics, but these factors don't guarantee it. In my experience, velocity development must include a program that focuses on learning how to compete with the fastball (primarily), long-toss, proper nutrition, plyometrics and qualified mechanical instruction.
My experience in h.s. was that most pitchers competed by throwing offspeed stuff. That's great, and it worked, but 90% of the ones that went onto the next level were high K and velocity guys.
velocity , projection and the ability to handle adversity are what coaches look for in my opinion
quote:Originally posted by COACH "K":
Don't complicate pitching. I learned early in my career that the most important thing in hitting was timing. If a batter does not have timing (no matter how great his swing is) he can not make good contact on any ball. So if timing is most important in hitting then throwing off that timing is one of the most important things to being a good pitcher. 87% of walks turn into runs and add an average of 6 additional pitches to your total pitch count. Yet making a batter put the ball in play results in an out 70% of the time. Teach a pitcher to command and pinpoint pitches at various speeds. Velocity development will come with age, genetics and some adjustments in mechanics. Increases in velocity will come in small chunks, but increase in control and command of a game can make huge differences in a becoming a winning pitcher!
Always remember this... Lessons can not improve control... lessons improve mechanics. The only way to improve control is through repetition.
There are very few programs that focus on control yet it is one of most important skill a pitcher wanting to progress to a higher level can do. You may want to check out the SNIPER Pitching program which progressively develops a pitchers control at all ages. It is kind of like earning a black belt through testing at increasingly difficult levels. You can see how it works by going to the SNIPER Pitching Program website.
As for increasing velocity, there are some proven research on the benefits of throwing a lighter ball (not too light) to increase muscle twitch, thus increasing arm speed. This mixed with a program of long toss will help develop those small chunks of velocity most pitchers are looking for.
Most importantly, ALWAYS properly stretch and warm up the arm properly before doing any type of workouts. Stretching should be done at three different times.... ALWAYS. These three times are:
- prior to pitching,
- thirty minutes to an hour after pitching and icing an arm,
- the following morning after jogging to the point of sweating for a minimum of 15 minutes.
If you don't have a healthy arm nothing else really matters.
Coach K what kind of light ball I once had a pitcher tell me they used tennis balls you said light but not too light...do you think tennis balls are to light?
Also lot of debate on running the next day why do you think it is important to run next day to point of sweat? Is this lactic acid thing?
Dad,
You can get weighted ball sets from Oates.
http://oatesspecialties.com/pr...th=30&products_id=48
I would not go below 3-4oz.
Running is good for healing by elevating blood flow, but lactic acid is not the reason. (does not happen in throwing associated with pitching)
You can get weighted ball sets from Oates.
http://oatesspecialties.com/pr...th=30&products_id=48
I would not go below 3-4oz.
Running is good for healing by elevating blood flow, but lactic acid is not the reason. (does not happen in throwing associated with pitching)
Originally posted by wogdoggy:
[/QUOTE]
velocity , projection and the ability to handle adversity are what coaches look for in my opinion[/QUOTE]
College coaches want present ability. Projectability is a bonus. Pros want both present ability and projectability.
The ability to handle adversity is definitely a factor at any level. But after age 16 if you don't have present ability at the very least who cares about the ability to handle adversity or projectability? You're not going to pitch anyway.
And I know a ton of college coaches who would pitch a nutcase with a 90 MPH fastball.
What I'm saying is present ability is the key. Projectability is subjective and not under a player's control anyway. A player, a real player, shouldn't care. What is he going to do, will himself to grow six inches? Stop growing a beard?
Therefore, present ability is the most important factor. How do you get present ability? Develop the fastball.
[/QUOTE]
velocity , projection and the ability to handle adversity are what coaches look for in my opinion[/QUOTE]
College coaches want present ability. Projectability is a bonus. Pros want both present ability and projectability.
The ability to handle adversity is definitely a factor at any level. But after age 16 if you don't have present ability at the very least who cares about the ability to handle adversity or projectability? You're not going to pitch anyway.
And I know a ton of college coaches who would pitch a nutcase with a 90 MPH fastball.
What I'm saying is present ability is the key. Projectability is subjective and not under a player's control anyway. A player, a real player, shouldn't care. What is he going to do, will himself to grow six inches? Stop growing a beard?
Therefore, present ability is the most important factor. How do you get present ability? Develop the fastball.
quote:Originally posted by BOF:
Dad,
You can get weighted ball sets from Oates.
http://oatesspecialties.com/pr...th=30&products_id=48
I would not go below 3-4oz.
Running is good for healing by elevating blood flow, but lactic acid is not the reason. (does not happen in throwing associated with pitching)
Thanks BOF I was hoping the running was not for lactic acid ...have read a lot where running does noting for lactic acid
Have not been a fan weighted balls ( heavier) like long toss program but was interested in the lighter balls to improved fast twitch muscles....have heard how the fast twitch muscles are important but never knew how to improve them...so this post drew my interest
quote:Originally posted by COACH "K":
Don't complicate pitching. I learned early in my career that the most important thing in hitting was timing. If a batter does not have timing (no matter how great his swing is) he can not make good contact on any ball. So if timing is most important in hitting then throwing off that timing is one of the most important things to being a good pitcher.
That’s a mighty fine chunk of words, with the opening sentence the most important, and the 2nd not far behind.
quote:87% of walks turn into runs and add an average of 6 additional pitches to your total pitch count. Yet making a batter put the ball in play results in an out 70% of the time. Teach a pitcher to command and pinpoint pitches at various speeds.
I can’t say whether the numbers you quote are accurate, but they definitely are in the ballpark, and I find it unbelievable that more people don’t understand what those numbers mean.
quote:Velocity development will come with age, genetics and some adjustments in mechanics. Increases in velocity will come in small chunks, but increase in control and command of a game can make huge differences in a becoming a winning pitcher!
What most can’t/won’t do, is separate trying to be successful at the level a player is currently playing, and what it takes to be successful at a higher level. 2 years ago our HS team had a kid who got drafted in the 3rd round. The reasons he got drafted was, he could hit 90, he was 6’4”/180, and he was only 17 years old with lots of time to develop. We also had a kid that was a really raw So, and another very polished Jr in the rotation. The “stud” got slapped around all season long, beating only one team with a winning record. The other 2 didn’t have the flare and panache, but they won more games and had more success.
That’s not mean to imply all stud HS pitchers can be overshadowed by players with lesser gifts, but it is intended to show that there are many different ways to be a successful pitcher.
quote:Always remember this... Lessons can not improve control... lessons improve mechanics. The only way to improve control is through repetition.
Another very true statement, that people somehow don’t seem to grasp.
Nice post.
