Long Toss

Long toss like bands is an excerise to prep the shoulder and arm. It may have some influence on his pitching mechanics but given his age, I doubt it would at this point.

I have a pretty strong opinion on this topic. We limit long toss to a maximum distance of 120’ with the pitchers we train - and it’s for all the reasons noted in the post by @GunnerMackJr. When you get beyond that distance most kids change their arm slot in order to make the ball carry farther in the air - which makes the event counterproductive. It makes no sense to practice a different throwing motion than the one that’s used on a game mound and in doing so it can add unnecessary stress to the shoulder and/or elbow. Dr. Andrews concerns are valid and lots of coaches give bad advice about pitching in general and specifically pitching training.

My son has done a couple rounds of the Driveline On-Ramp program, which includes following the Jaeger long-toss plan. He has also long-tossed in and out of season when not on Driveline. He definitely throws a lot harder than he did when he started. Don't know if that is due to the plan or just his physical growth, but I'm assuming the plan at least helped. However, he developed this arm motion where he would get really long and it was almost like his arm would get stuck. He was doing this to throw the ball the longest distances. This arm motion really messed things up early in the summer and we basically had to rebuild his throwing motion over a 2 week span.

I think it definitely believe the long-toss helped my son with throwing with greater intent. Just not sure if it is worth that whacky throwing motion rearing it's ugly head again. 

@adbono posted:

I have a pretty strong opinion on this topic. We limit long toss to a maximum distance of 120’ with the pitchers we train - and it’s for all the reasons noted in the post by @GunnerMackJr. When you get beyond that distance most kids change their arm slot in order to make the ball carry farther in the air - which makes the event counterproductive. It makes no sense to practice a different throwing motion than the one that’s used on a game mound and in doing so it can add unnecessary stress to the shoulder and/or elbow. Dr. Andrews concerns are valid and lots of coaches give bad advice about pitching in general and specifically pitching training.

This makes complete sense to me...... now how to get it thru to an almost 19 year old.... he did show me his college throwing program and it only goes out to 120 feet.   I think it's two knucklehead 19 year olds seeing how far they can throw.   Not a good idea.

@Gunner Mack Jr. posted:

This makes complete sense to me...... now how to get it thru to an almost 19 year old....

That’s the eternal struggle. Sometimes when I wanted to get a message like that to one of my kids I would have it delivered by someone other than me. Didn’t always work but it did on occasion. Just a thought.

My son (a 2022) has done the driveline program for what seems like a few years and uses the Jaeger bands and he long tosses as well.  He's a huge proponent for long-tossing - probably does it five days/week. He's never had arm problems, but he is not a pitcher.

Talked to son's PT (ex mlb pt) about this and he said generally 120-150 foot max is the long toss he suggests and he gave several reasons similar to above.

great topic of discussion ...

this recent tweet implies long toss correlates with velo.
... and isn't more velo better ?

@mjd-dad posted:

great topic of discussion ...

this recent tweet implies long toss correlates with velo.
... and isn't more velo better ?

It’s not a question of if you should do it - it’s a question of how it’s to be done.

I would say whether you do max distance long toss also depends on your slot. Quite a few successful pitchers do max distance long toss (Bauer for example-not talking about him as a person here) but I think it works better for high arm slots (straight overhead or high 3/4) because higher arm slots have a more pure backspin (what they now call spin efficiency) and thus carry better.

If you throw low 3/4 or side arm max distance throwing doesn't work as well because the ball has less lift and often a bit more tail.

@mjd-dad posted:

great topic of discussion ...

this recent tweet implies long toss correlates with velo.
... and isn't more velo better ?

I do think long toss can help with training the arm but we don't know really what is causing what here.

Generally if you throw harder you can throw farther but that doesn't mean you throw hard because you do long toss, it could also mean that you simply toss longer because you throw harder.

Apart from good mechanics and strength you need a certain volume of hard throwing to throw hard but that can be done on a line or long distance.

An advantage of long toss for amateur players is that you can use it to monitor intensity without having a radar gun

I’m in the 120 foot crowd. So was my son’s high school and 17u coaches.

It's 2021, almost 2022, and we still don't really have a solid grasp.

If we're going to talk about arm strength, I get what people mean by arm strength, but in terms of strength, throwing isn't a strength activity (at least not for the arm).

But the big question that still isn't answered is: is long toss necessary to throw fast from the mound? And if so, how far is needed? Does it need to be on a line or not on a line?

Is maximum intent during long toss the mediating factor for throwing velocity to translate on the mound? Is throwing more a mediating factor? Is the belief that this may be helpful a mediating factor?

To an above posters post, on long toss and mound velocity, correlation does not equal causation. Shark attacks and ice cream sales have been shown to be correlated, but nobody would say either one is causative of the other.

Long toss does change kinematics and kinetics at a certain point. Whether that leads to injury isn't answered. To play devil's advocate, if long toss were to add additional stress, this (if dosed appropriately) could potentially lead to a decrease in injury risk (because additional stress is needed to create change [muscles, bones, ligaments, tendons, IVDs, cartilage]), but hasn't been tested.

At the end of the day, I don't have a strong opinion that one MUST long toss. I feel if it's your job to throw 100 pitches at game intensity, then you should practice that skill on the mound. And as has been shown, pitch counts are very much under reported, so I'm still not convinced pitchers are as ready as they should be to make the amount of pitches that are asked of them in a game-like scenario. But I'm also open to more research that may show that you absolutely should, we just don't have available.

This is one of those things you will have to decide for yourself. Keep in mind it's more than just throwing the ball over the mountain.  That's just the first part.  The pull downs coming back in distance are the second part.

I'm going with Boddy, Jaeger, Cressey, Sullivan and Wolforth and saying yes to long toss. But to each (parent) his own. Like a many things in pitch training, you will get a lot of different advice.

It is kinda hard to imagine Chris Sale throwing long toss as part of his strengthening program.

The change in mechanics argument is strange to me.  I think the confusion lies in the fact that long toss involves throwing so people lump it into the category of specificity when it’s actually more general in nature.  

Is there any other sport where training with 100% specificity, only in the range of motion for the task, is suggested?  How many variations are there for a push-up?  Why do we have all of those variations?  It’s to work all of the muscles involved completely.  To do so, you have to work in multiple ranges of motion.

Any physical training is likely to change throwing mechanics as the entire body is involved.  Training legs will change mechanics over time.  Training core will change mechanics over time.  Training back and shoulders will change mechanics over time.  As you increase various muscle group’s ability to accept a load and contribute to a task the body will adapt to incorporate this new capacity into the execution of the task.  Look at an individual’s  mechanics over a high school career.  Their mechanics change significantly from 14 year old freshman to 17 year old senior.  Their bodies change, they get stronger, different muscles get involved in the throwing motion.  Suggesting that a pitcher should only throw a ball in the exact mechanics of his delivery off the mound makes no sense physiologically.  Are there positions you want to avoid that put additional stress on the arm, absolutely.  Should a healthy, well conditioned, overhand athlete be able to build up to throwing long distance without blowing up their arm, absolutely.

Just like no one would put 300 lbs on the bar and start deadlifting it, no one should back up to 300 ft and start chunking the ball.  Working your way up in weight/distance ( continuing the deadlift to long toss analogy) as part of defined program will improve the tissue quality of the muscles involved.  Improving the quality of the muscles involved in all ranges of motion will increase the strength and durability of the muscles involved in the specific range of motion.  

Son did 300 foot long toss during the fall but kept same arm slot.  Long toss does not good if you are changing arm slot.
After football practice 2-3 times a week he would throw a bucket of balls from end zone to end zone and back.

@Go44dad posted:

This is one of those things you will have to decide for yourself. Keep in mind it's more than just throwing the ball over the mountain.  That's just the first part.  The pull downs coming back in distance are the second part.

^^THIS

My son tends to drop his elbow, when the distances get long-ruining his pitching mechanics. We've kept long toss in, but try to get him to throw level as far as he can ,not just how far he can throw it. We often use a Pitcher's Pocket for a target.  But like mentioned above. Teenagers often try to lift the heaviest weights, throw the farthest they can, etc. -without regard to mechanics.

If you find a way to get teenagers to listen to their fathers, please write a book!!! LOL

Just joking, my son's a great kid, but often lets his competitive sprit get in the way of good practice.