Long Toss Study

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Originally posted by CADad:
The folks at ASMI did a study on long toss.

but we now have a pretty good indication that max distance long toss may help improve throwing velocity.

You lost me there.

They've proven that the arm moves faster when doing max distance long toss. What is so hard to understand? Arm moves faster = more velocity.

I am a little confused as well. If the velocities were the same, intuitively it seems that the arm speeds would be the same. I would think the tilt simply changes the trajectory. I must be missing something.

There are a lot more things that go into velocity than just arm speed. Pitchers who are tilted forward more at release tend to throw harder. When you are releasing a ball upward at 35 degrees or so to produce max distance those angles aren't optimum with respect to producing max velocity so although the arm speed is higher the velocity at release isn't.

I see it as not seeing the forrest because of the trees. LT ain't an end all beat all, just another drill in the tool pouch, those who take it to the extreme and make it "the centerpiece" of conditioning, risk the ramifications of not doing the other stuff. Balance and good sense should win the day instead of the "one way or the highway" philosophy.
Mills, for example, acts like guys who do it "just do that" or if they do the towel drill, thats all they do. Those who do just that miss the same boat he does and will pay the price.

I agree with you JD. A common sense program with lots of throwing. Problem is common sense is not so common and guys like Mills, Marshall, etal with their "my way or the highway" approach have it all wrong. ASMI is the one organization that takes a scientific/medical approach to this stuff and is trying to strip away all of the hype.

CADad can you post a link? Would like to read it.

long toss study

This is just the abstract. I read elsewhere that the velocities were the same. I don't remember if the velocities or loads off the mound were the same.

The way I interpret it is that players put more effort into the max distance throws but the overall velocity is no higher because they are not in an optimum position at release. More effort = higher loads. More effort = training effect.

BTW, the safety of long toss during rehab is due to the fact that the minimum effort required to throw a given distance is on an arc. Therefore as players move out in distance and throw on an arc they can ensure that they aren't throwing harder than they are ready for during rehab. It is much harder to measure how hard one is throwing when throwing on a line and easy to overdo it.

The same also applies when working one's way out during long toss until one gets to or very near max distance. Throwing on an arc as one works out in distance ensures a controlled progression in the loads on the arm. Once one gets out to max distance then the loads are higher and one has to balance the risk and the reward just as one does when throwing at max effort in the bullpen or in a game.

The pulldown phase on the way back in then attempts to combine the effort at max distance with throwing on a line and the more correct mechanics.

quote:

Originally posted by BOF:
1) Problem is common sense is not so common and guys like Mills, Marshall, etal with their "my way or the highway" approach have it all wrong.

2) ASMI is the one organization that takes a scientific/medical approach to this stuff and is trying to strip away all of the hype.

1) My read on Mills is that he thinks some stuff is a waste of time, so why bother.

Marshall, just a nut.

2) ASMI is doing some good work, but they randomly have some logic problems with their conclusions. They will keep working at it though.

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2) ASMI is doing some good work, but they randomly have some logic problems with their conclusions. They will keep working at it though.

Agreed. As often happens with most everyone the conclusions drawn at times align more with the agendas that people have than with the data.

quote:

Originally posted by CADad:

quote:

2) ASMI is doing some good work, but they randomly have some logic problems with their conclusions. They will keep working at it though.

Agreed. As often happens with most everyone the conclusions drawn at times align more with the agendas that people have than with the data.

Weird how that works, eh?

Not too weird. We all have and apply our biases including moi.

It is usually pretty easy to see bias on the part of others and more difficult to recognize it in ourselves. I'm sure my interpretation is at least partly based in having been involved in long toss for many years.

The abstract appears to confirm that long toss is a viable part of a pitcher's preparation and conditioning program. However, the risk reward benefits of long toss become less investment worthy as the distance increases. It has always been my experience participating in long toss and my bias from watching my son and other pitchers perform long toss, that the farther distances open the door for unfortunate mechanical changes that lead to over exertion of parts of the chain that are not prepared for those forces. As in many group exercises, the purpose of the drill is all important. When it becomes a competition to see who can throw the farthest, then it becomes counter productive. And this is where the detractors take some of their shots.

Most focused high school and college pitchers realize the ephemeral nature of their game and can use long toss as an effective training tool to improve velocity without risk because of a mature approach. That said, I have known college programs that do not direct their pitchers to use long toss per say as a specific velocity enhancer.

"Marshall, just a nut"

Was that a can of worms I just heard opening?


BaseballByTheYard

I looked at the study results again and it left me wanting more information. It says there is more shoulder external rotation, shoulder internal rotation torque,and elbow varus torque in the LT throws. It also says the elbow extension velocity was greatest for the maximum distance throws.

I have to admit that I am not sure what elbow extension veocity is, but intuitively I would guess that it might be related to the velocity of the ball as it leaves the hand. At least indirectly.

In any case, I wonder if the changes listed above are less a result of necessary mechanical changes required by LT, than simply that they are throwing harder/faster while long tossing.

I am surprised that they did not report maximum out of hand velocities from each method in the abstract. That would be significant data to report in my opinion.

quote:

The end result is that max distance long toss isn't quite as safe as we once believed but we now have a pretty good indication that max distance long toss may help improve throwing velocity.

@CADad, as we were debating on a previous thread, the load on the arm is a direct relation to how often they throw. If they only throw 3,4 or 5 times a week, then throw long toss once or twice a week, their arm will not be able to handle the long toss as well. However, even as I am a firm believer in throwing everyday(and realistically it is basically a physiological fact that throwing everyday keeps a healthy arm), I believe the day after throwing long toss should be a light throwing day since long toss does put a significantly larger amount of stress on the arm in comparison to a regular throwing day. However, throwing the day after long toss should still be done.

And to my opinion, long toss isn't the safest exercise, only because you may end up throwing while you are tired, which can lead you to throwing with a dropped elbow, if your shoulders and thoracic vertebrae are not strong enough(if your shoulders can't handle the stress, they naturally drop the elbow angle down, putting more stress on the elbow). Throwing with a dropped elbow can hurt your arm at anytime, but even more so if your throwing max effort long toss.

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That said, I have known college programs that do not direct their pitchers to use long toss per say as a specific velocity enhancer.

And that is the biggest issue I have with college conditioning programs. They do football workouts. Cleans, deadlifts, benchpress, sprints, the works. College conditioning is great for mental toughness, but how much of it actually benefits them on the baseball field. Football is all either explosion, or hold. And that's all most baseball instructors know of. Some college's have great conditioning programs, but some are god-awful. I have heard of some college's that do not allow their pitchers to do long toss past 150 feet, and a limited amount of throws, and expect them to go 7 or 8 innings every start.

quote:

Originally posted by Noahh:

quote:

That said, I have known college programs that do not direct their pitchers to use long toss per say as a specific velocity enhancer.

And that is the biggest issue I have with college conditioning programs. They do football workouts. Cleans, deadlifts, benchpress, sprints, the works. College conditioning is great for mental toughness, but how much of it actually benefits them on the baseball field. Football is all either explosion, or hold. And that's all most baseball instructors know of. Some college's have great conditioning programs, but some are god-awful. I have heard of some college's that do not allow their pitchers to do long toss past 150 feet, and a limited amount of throws, and expect them to go 7 or 8 innings every start.

Well stated Noahh! For what it's worth, I wholeheartedly agree with your premise. Throw, and then throw some more. Long toss, properly done, can only help.

quote:

Originally posted by Noahh:

quote:

That said, I have known college programs that do not direct their pitchers to use long toss per say as a specific velocity enhancer.

And that is the biggest issue I have with college conditioning programs. They do football workouts. Cleans, deadlifts, benchpress, sprints, the works. College conditioning is great for mental toughness, but how much of it actually benefits them on the baseball field. Football is all either explosion, or hold. And that's all most baseball instructors know of. Some college's have great conditioning programs, but some are god-awful. I have heard of some college's that do not allow their pitchers to do long toss past 150 feet, and a limited amount of throws, and expect them to go 7 or 8 innings every start.

Long toss has its purpose in a good off-season (and in-season) workout routine, but so do the barbell lifts! Both quick and slow lifts are important and improve skeletal muscle quality, density, and volume.

There is ample evidence out there that resistance training improves fastball velocity, bat speed, and sprint times.

I said this in my latest article for The Hardball Times:

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According to the American Sports Medicine Institute (ASMI), elite pitchers experience an average Shoulder Proximal Force of 1265 Newtons (N) during their pitching delivery. One kilogram (kg) applies a downwards force of approximately 9.8 N, so 1265 N is roughly equivalent to 129 kg (283 lbs.) of proximal force on the shoulder.

It only makes sense to prepare the body for these high forces that the shoulder experiences, and doing light resistance-band exercises and mobility work (the extent of the "training" many professional pitchers get) won't cut it.

The shoulder and elbow undergo a significant amount of different types of forces, and training them using heavy implements can help strengthen the structures without the high-velocity loading of throwing baseballs.

A good workout program successfully integrates resistance training AND throwing! (And a lot of other things, of course.)

quote:

Originally posted by Kyle B:
There is ample evidence out there that resistance training improves fastball velocity, bat speed

Have a link to one of these studies? How quickly can I throw faster using this method?

SoS I sense a bit of sarcasm in your question, but just incase you are serious here is some information.

http://www.thecompletepitcher....itching_velocity.htm

Actually Jerry Kreber has a detailed article on what he did with his HS team in a very controlled manner to increase velocity that included weight lifting, pylometrics, and weighted baseballs. This is a summary article, I have a PDF of his study, which is also on Steve Ellis's site if you do a search for it. I think he saw around a 4-5 MPH improvement in velo based on the combined workouts.

Kyle is spot on. Lifting weights is standard protocol for ALL college and pro programs. I am not sure why you posted such a stupid question, but if you are really that uniformed about strength and conditioning programs there is a bunch of information out there if you look around.