DolphinDan - You may find this Jaeger video helpful.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9w3xwYIx17s
Stands to reason the more arm speed you have the farther the ball will go. The more arm speed you have the harder you will pitch. The guy that can throw 300' will most likely have a faster fastball than a guy that can only throw 250'. But if he can't throw strikes it doesn't matter. That said, if you can make your arm stronger and faster by increasing your distance you can throw in long toss then you can pitch faster.
quote:Originally posted by Bum:
I am for this. I'm certainly not against it. Doing band work is an important part of training but I don't think it necessarily has to be done proximate to long-toss.
We can agree to have different opinions.
IMO, anytime is a good time to pull the bands, but he doesn't pick up a ball until he does, especially for long toss. Zero arm issues in two years and running now.
Ditto for son. And to be clear, he does tons of band work, just not necessarily immediately before and after. But I say this with humility because there but for the Grace of God go he.
quote:Originally posted by Ninthmanout:
Stands to reason the more arm speed you have the farther the ball will go.
The better LT technique you have, the further it will go.
The better pitching technique you have, the faster you can pitch.
Sometimes you can do both.
I have yet to see a good pitcher who can't throw around 300 feet..
quote:Originally posted by Gingerbread Man:
I have yet to see a good pitcher who can't throw around 300 feet..
You haven't seen my son. It's sad.
quote:I have yet to see a good pitcher who can't throw around 300 feet..
I've seen collegiate All-Americans and kids that are drafted that can't throw the ball 300 feet...
Unless one has watched a pitcher in practice up close and personal how would one know who can throw 300 feet and who can't? 
quote:Originally posted by TPM:
Unless one has watched a pitcher in practice up close and personal how would one know who can throw 300 feet and who can't?
That's why I have eyes to see.
quote:Originally posted by Gingerbread Man:
I have yet to see a good pitcher who can't throw around 300 feet..
My son is a pretty good pitcher and he doesn't throw around 300 feet, and he told me that most of the pitchers don't throw that far as well. In the past year, I have seen ONE ML player (not pitcher) that threw consistantly well over 300 feet in a game, and I watch a lot of bb. So I was wondering if you could support your above statment with examples you have seen with your eyes or video of pitchers throwing 300 feet.
Are you confusing "tossing" with "throwing"?
Not really sure I want to get caught in a TPM v. GBM peeing contest, but here goes. :-) According to Prof. Adair in The Physics of Baseball a baseball released at 90 mph, at an optimum angle of 35-40 degrees, will travel a little over 300 feet. Logically, most people who throw mid 90's should be able to throw well over 300 feet, though an adjustment to release paint will be necessary.
Just because a pitcher with a 95 mph arm doesn't throw 300 feet doesn't mean he can't. Many college and MLB programs still believe that pitchers should "long toss" at 150-200 feet. However, from what I have read a good number of MLB teams have changed their philosophies in recent years. The Rangers, under Ryan's direction, have even hired Alan Jaeger as a consultant. Their pitchers are encouraged to max out distance wise. Don't know if it's true or not, but supposedly Bauer told teams that didn't believe in max out long toss not to draft him.
And FWIW, the current pitching coach at DK's former school encourages kids to max out. Most of them are in the 300 ft range, with some throwing considerably further.
Just because a pitcher with a 95 mph arm doesn't throw 300 feet doesn't mean he can't. Many college and MLB programs still believe that pitchers should "long toss" at 150-200 feet. However, from what I have read a good number of MLB teams have changed their philosophies in recent years. The Rangers, under Ryan's direction, have even hired Alan Jaeger as a consultant. Their pitchers are encouraged to max out distance wise. Don't know if it's true or not, but supposedly Bauer told teams that didn't believe in max out long toss not to draft him.
And FWIW, the current pitching coach at DK's former school encourages kids to max out. Most of them are in the 300 ft range, with some throwing considerably further.
quote:Originally posted by TPM:quote:Originally posted by Gingerbread Man:
I have yet to see a good pitcher who can't throw around 300 feet..
My son is a pretty good pitcher and he doesn't throw around 300 feet, and he told me that most of the pitchers don't throw that far as well. In the past year, I have seen ONE ML player (not pitcher) that threw consistantly well over 300 feet in a game, and I watch a lot of bb. So I was wondering if you could support your above statment with examples you have seen with your eyes or video of pitchers throwing 300 feet.
Are you confusing "tossing" with "throwing"?
quote:Originally posted by TPM:quote:Originally posted by Gingerbread Man:
I have yet to see a good pitcher who can't throw around 300 feet..
My son is a pretty good pitcher and he doesn't throw around 300 feet, and he told me that most of the pitchers don't throw that far as well. In the past year, I have seen ONE ML player (not pitcher) that threw consistantly well over 300 feet in a game, and I watch a lot of bb. So I was wondering if you could support your above statment with examples you have seen with your eyes or video of pitchers throwing 300 feet.
Are you confusing "tossing" with "throwing"?
Tossing with throwing? Are they not the same thing? Isn't the very definition of a "throw" also defined as a "toss"? Confusing for sure!
By throwing 300 feet I am not saying throwing on a line or doing something you would do in a game, I am saying like throwing a ball on the right angle as far as you can- you know- "long toss". A player who throws at about 34 degrees at a velocity in the 80's thus will be able to throw about 300 feet. Can your son nor his team mates not do that? I am sure they can! Perhaps you are confused. My son can throw a ball in the air right around 300 feet. The three kids who graduated last year from our team who all now play small college ball also can throw a ball in the air around 300 feet. The three other current pitchers who are decent on our team now also can throw a ball in the air around 300 feet.
(BTW, I live at an elevation over 4000 feet and that would have a slight difference on the flight of a ball- thinner air equalling about a +20' over sea level thrown balls.)
I think you may have misunderstood me.
I've been playing long toss with my son for the past three weeks. The majority of his baseball pals have already begun school, so he's stuck with his old man that can barely toss beyond 150FT (50 yard line) now before the bucket of balls comes into play. The wind, elevation, humidity, etc...has been mentioned regarding the effect on distances, but the type of baseballs thrown come into play too. I've noticed that he can grab one ball out of the bucket and chuck it 315+ feet, and grab the next one and toss it 285. When you're playing long toss with balls that are also used for batting practice, you never know what you'll get? FWIW, his college pitching coach emailed the incoming/returning pitchers, and his suggested program was to throw four days a week (3 days long tossing, incl. hat drill, some flat ground work, and 1 day per week in the pen). I'll be going out to the football field with him later this afternoon for our last LT session. He'll rest on Thursday, and have one more 40 pitch bully on Friday before the bored kid finally leaves for school this weekend.
My son's pitching instructor wasn't able to long toss 300'. I believe he's capable of doing so during the season but at that point in time he wasn't able to. He's got a low 3/4 arm slot which tends to reduce long toss distance. I understand that he tops out at about 93 mph off the mound and that he had an ERA around 2.5 this season in AAA.
There are some pitchers who just don't long toss far relative to their pitching velocity for whatever reason.
TPM,
I've seen plenty of pitchers who threw 300'+ and I wouldn't be surprised if your son could throw 300'+ if he wanted to. Plenty of you-tube video of Bauer, et al throwing well over 300' and I've seen him and many others do it personally. Some of the ones I've seen are not yet what I'd call a good pitcher relative to someone in the higher levels of pro ball.
There are some pitchers who just don't long toss far relative to their pitching velocity for whatever reason.
TPM,
I've seen plenty of pitchers who threw 300'+ and I wouldn't be surprised if your son could throw 300'+ if he wanted to. Plenty of you-tube video of Bauer, et al throwing well over 300' and I've seen him and many others do it personally. Some of the ones I've seen are not yet what I'd call a good pitcher relative to someone in the higher levels of pro ball.
quote:I have yet to see a good pitcher who can't throw around 300 feet..
So if throw and toss are the same, then you are saying that you have yet to see a good pitcher who can't toss around 300 feet. I am sure there are plenty of good pitchers out there that cannot or don't toss (throw) 300 feet or even hit 90.
CADad,
There is an assumption that the harder one throws than the farther one can, but I question the validity of that (except in theory). DK does not throw or toss 300 feet, never has and probably never will. I don't question that you have seen pitchers throw or toss 300feet, I know you know what you are talking about.
MTH,
Son didn't work with the pitching coach who is now at Clemson, but rather someone else who advocates that toss is and should be pitcher specific, he trains 90,120,150 and if a pitcher wants may go longer. I am going to make an assumption that is because many pitcher lose their mechanics after a specific distance and more load is placed upon the shoulder and elbow. I know sons orgainzation allows pitchers to do what makes them feel most comfortable with as probably most do.
Vector,
Not sure of why you posted that site, no one is denying that long toss should not be part of their training program. According to my understanding some question maxing out, that's ok, as explained to me all pitchers are different and all approach their training differently.
Correct me if wrong but doesn't ASMI question whether the safe loads placed upon the arm, elbow and shoulder decreases as the feet increases?
Now I am not talking about chucking it (which is not necessarily a safe thing to always is it) but more for serious training.
quote:Originally posted by TPM:quote:I have yet to see a good pitcher who can't throw around 300 feet..
So if throw and toss are the same, then you are saying that you have yet to see a good pitcher who can't toss around 300 feet. I am sure there are plenty of good pitchers out there that cannot or don't toss (throw) 300 feet or even hit 90.
Sure, there are plenty of pitcher's who "don't" try to throw 300 feet but I am certain they can. All that changes is the release angle of the ball. In general, the mechanics are pretty much the same. It all comes down to arm speed. I am sure that if your son tried, with a little practice, he could throw the ball probably about 320 feet just based off of his velocity from the mound.
When my son long tosses he very seldom throws it at the angle to throw it 300 feet. He will usually only make 2-3 throws at that angle and distance. Generally he works up to about 250-275 feet throwing between 20-30 degrees. When he pitches- the day he pitches he works up to only about 150 feet throwing on a line at only a 5-10 degree angle.
