lowering of the mound and pitching injuries

I really haven't a clue -- but isn't there a common thought that early in the pre-season, or after any layoff from pitching, it is best to start off throwing from flat ground? I don't remember where I heard that. But if that is the case, then wouldn't that indicate the higher the mound, the more stress on the arm? Again, I don't have any idea. What do the knowledgeable folks out there say?

general consensus is the lower the mound the less stress on an arm.

quote:

Originally posted by emeraldvlly:
What do the knowledgeable folks out there say?

That's what I am waiting for.

I too have always heard that throwing on flat ground reduces stress on the arm. I'm sure not an expert on the subject so I wouldn't bet the farm but based on that premise I would summize that lowering the mound would also reduce stress.

I would be willing to bet that it has more to do with way too much pitching at younger ages , curve balls , and improper mechanics. The best arms gets used the most. I think we would all be surprised to see how many innings in one year some of these 12 -15 year olds really throw. I dont think the height of the mound has anything to do with that.

In a quick 10 minute search (most of that spent reading this article) I found some interesting information.

Disclaimer - while I am putting this for you to read and I do find what they say very interesting I am not endorsing it completely. I just believe they make some very good points.

In this article it talks about mound vs. flat ground in terms of arm stress, long tossing and weighted ball workouts.

One last thing - it takes a while to get to the good stuff but bear with it. It does get interesting.

http://www.webball.com/cms/page1432.cfm

I am certainly no expert by any means but last year when my son was experiencing discomfort in his arm, it was only off the mound that it hurt. Flat ground, no problem. His PT said that working off of a mound put quite a bit more stress on arm than flat ground. But I will agree that kids probably do throw too many innings. Saw one kid at the Elite 24 throw 120 pitches in our game then turn around after 1 day and throw a several innings in the championship. Don't think flat ground or mound will make a difference with kids like that.

I am not an expert eather, but I used to pitch. From the mound it is a lot more easy to throw breaking pitch, and make sense to me. From the flat you need to make an extra arm effort. Maybe for fastballs there is not difference.

I have an eery feeling we are headed into the pitch count abyss. Anyone that has a busy schedule today may I suggest you do what these guys are about to do

Although the lower mound is supposed the be less stressful on the arm...the reason the mound was lowered after the 1968 season was due to the pitching dominance of the era.

JT,
Thanks, but someone pointed out that the pitchers don't hold up like they used to, citing that lowering of the mound maybe for a reason.

I'd like to say one thing, whether I started the post or not, can we EVER have any discussion without illustrations?

quote:

Originally posted by BBfam:
But I will agree that kids probably do throw too many innings. Saw one kid at the Elite 24 throw 120 pitches in our game then turn around after 1 day and throw a several innings in the championship. Don't think flat ground or mound will make a difference with kids like that.

BINGO! When I played (here come the dinosaur stories again) we didn't have travel by age group. We weren't a stud every year. We went through the age groups waiting our turn to pitch. In LL only twelve year olds did the pitching. In Babe Ruth only fifteen year olds and the best fourteen's did the pitching. In junior high seventh graders never saw the mound. Then in high school and Legion sophs rarely pitched. Without doing all the math again, with kids pitching in travel starting at 8U, 9U and pitching as much as some do, some kids have more innings on their arm after 12U than I had entering my junior year of high school. By the time they reach high school they've pitched more than I had leaving high school?Legion for college ball.

When my son was 9U and 10U travel three studs did most of the pitching. My son was punished (not allowed to pitch) because I told the head coach only two innings a week. Two of the three studs had growth plate surgery when they were twelve. I warned the coach and parents. The reply: "Don't worry! They're strong kids."

The kid who was the 11U and 12U stud pitcher, heading into high school, isn't throwing any harder than when he was 13U. A kid in my son's LL would pitch nine, ten innings of travel on the weekend and six innings during the week for LL. This kid was "the man". He got a ride to a private high school starting with 7th grade. He's no longer pitching at sixteen. His arm has broken twice from muscular distress. Another kid from our LL was a stud at nine, ten and eleven. I told his father his mechanics are bad and he pitches too much for his mechanics. His father told me to mind my own business. The kid couldn't play when he was twelve due to growth plate damage.

Even on my son's travel team (15U in the fall) I'm watching tired arms. The kids haven't pitched too much each week. There have been two many tournaments. We acquired three more pitchers for the fall and my son is being made a starter.

All along I've been criticized by parents for holding my son back in pitching. He's just starting to grow. His arm is fresh. And because he was smaller before he had to learn a good change and knuckle curve.

Parents have to learn it's a long journey and the only way anyone remembers the younger studs who aren't playing anymore is in the context of "He was good when he was younger until he blew his arm out." That is if they're remembered at all.

Most pitching arm problems are the residual result of overuse thru LL and HS not a higher or lower mound

TG, nice post. My son played left field why many of these "studs" at age 12 or so got all the innings. Nearly every one of them is now out of baseball or relegated to the outfield while my son, the undersized sub at that age.. well, he will be pitching D1 after he graduates..

..but back to TPM's question. I don't think the mound height is correlated to injury (within reasonable norms) but I do think obsession with pitch-counts is partly to blame.

Here's my culprits:

1) Poor mechanics
2) Not throwing enough
3) Pitching too much
4) Over-emphasis on pitch counts
5) Under-emphasis on pitching on adequate rest
6) You were never meant to be a pitcher

That last one is not intended to be sarcasm. I believe there are those kids that daddy wants to throw hard but are just not physically capable.. and they break.

quote:

coach2709

That was an interesting article. I appreciate you posting it.

The general consensus is that the mound w/all the angles, puts more stress on the shoulder area, and I don't know who posted it but they are correct in that mlb lowered it to create more offense. Somehow I knew this would turn into a pitch count/overuse thing..... Maybe kids or adults don't throw enough?!

So sorry, 2Diamonds. From now on I'll make sure my posts strictly conform to the subject, as you see it. Not.

Thanks Michael's Dad I found it very interesting as well.

I believe mechanics and conditioning will eliminate a lot of problems. Mound elevation has very little to do with it.

I think Bum is right that some kids are not meant to be pitchers. They have a hose from the outfield or shortstop or behind the plate but put them on the mound they can't pitch.

No problem Bum, I wasn't attacking you personally, I just get tired of the overuse/pitch count discussion. I happen to agree w/ the 6 points you laid out, especially the last one. I'll be sure and generalize my next such post as to not affend anyone.I think the pitching coach for the Braves,now with the Orioles was had it right. He had those guys throwing everyday.

2Diamonds,

No problem here either, 2Diamonds. Except I am continually fascinating by the pitch-count/overuse discussion.

Just speculating, but even though the higher mound is a bit more directly stressful for a pitcher, perhaps a pitcher has to work harder to be more effective off a lower mound, i.e. put more effort out to throw the same speed or even harder to make up for having less down angle on the ball and throw more pitches per inning, resulting in more stress.

I know I used to love throwing off a high mound. When I had to throw off a very low mound it made everything more difficult and swung things around in favor of the hitters to some degree.