Loyality to a teammate or ..........

Player A should have stepped forward on his own, and that would have been my comment to the others.

Jemaz said it all!

I agree with jemaz and also would expect "A" to step forward, and if he doesn't after a talk with B,C,D, then those three should set the record straight. I don't feel anyone should have to stand up for someone that can not stand-up for themself. Loyalty is over rated at times, and at this point "A" was not loyal to begin with.

This sounds like one of my old law school questions...where's "Blackacre?"

My immediate thoughts are these:

Presumably, as a coach, you are also a school official and obliged to uphold school policy...even if you don't personnlay approve of it. As student/athletes, presumably, the players are also obliged to uphold school policy. However, what IS the school policy? From the sound of things, B, C and D weren't involved in the actions of A EXCEPT to the extent they either refused to identify him, or lied to a school administrator to protect him (you're not clear on that). Is there a school policy that a student/athlete must report violations of school policy which they witness and/or truthfully answer questions about such violations when such questions are put to them by the a school administrator? If there is no such policy (there often is and its often characterized as an "Honor System") punishing all 4 may be even be actionable as to B, C and D.

Depends on the level of the infraction. If it will get them kicked out of school or off the team then I'd say B, C and D have to speak up. Otherwise they should back their team mate. Of course as jemaz noted A should step up and take responsibility.

I agree with the guys. This scenario says lots about all boys involved. Just not the same thing about A as it does B,C,D. If A was my son, I would be extememly disappointed. He's not a teammate.

Hardest lesson for a youngun to learn is "Your actions have consequences". If we accomplish that task as parents, I believe that we have been sucessful in a major part of their "growing up".

The actions (or inactions) of these individuals all had consequences that they have now learned. You try to guide them to make their decisions in advance of being placed in a questionable situation, so they have figured out their response before the problem presents itself.

Everyone in the room was wrong to some degree. Obviously, Player A has the furthest distance to go. He didn't admit it was his action that was affecting the group.

Do I praise Player B for not "selling out a teammate"? No. Do I condemn him for not telling the truth? No. He has to decide all of these things for himself. It's a part of growing up.

What I would hope that he would do is inform "Player A" as soon as he saw the activity to cease doing it in front of him. If he didn't, then to remove himself from the situation by leaving. If asked, then tell the truth.

Loyalty is valuable, but the loyalty bond was broken by Player A when he started the inappropriate activity. Honesty is one of the only commodities that people can never take from you.

Agree with jemaz that Player A should have stepped forward on his own. But since he didn't in this hypothetical scenario here's my take.
If my son were Player B, C, or D I wouldn't condemn him for not giving up Player A and I would give him an "attaboy" for his loyalty to a teammate.
He along with the other three players would accept the diciplinary measures handed out by the school. Then Players B, C, and D would administer additional punishment to Player A for not stepping forward and being a man. Player A will never make the same mistake again.

The school does have a strict policy concering the activity and it could have had serious consequences for the three players that kept quiet.

Just food for thought to many that have players in school.

OK

What IF

B,C, And D were kicked off the team because of player A's Actions?

I think the coach has to get to the bottom of the problem and sort out the mess because most teammates are going to stick together right or wrong. I have heard of players taking it for there buddies before and even though it may be loyalty (from there way of thinking) a coach will only give you so many strikes before he tells you to pack your bags and head home.

player A is clearly in the wrong but this happens more than you think. Grades, drinking, drugs, and other disciplin problems lead to alot of transfers.

There are some hard nose coaches out there that don't put up with much. It isn't high school anymore and you signed on to do a job.

The loyalty should come from player A....not allowing is fellow team mates to suffer consequences that do not apply to them.

I (as a player) would give player A an opportunity to set it straight himself...if he chose not to...I would make sure my college career was not jepardized by player A's actions and my silence.

The bottom line is to give player A an opportunity to show his loyalty to us as team mates...if he does not, then the answer is simple...

JMO

If player A is willing to see his teammates punished unnecessarily, I wouldn't want him as my teammate.

Somewhere along the line, player A needs to learn to take responsibility for his own actions.

Integrity seems to be the core issue here. Player A certainly should have stepped forward and taken responsibility for his actions. Take responsibility for your own actions. Player loyalty is to the coaches, rules, school, and teammates who "don't" violate team policy or rules. Whether or not the incident didn't break the law is really immaterial, because it was a school or team rule is just as important. Players loyalty sometimes gets misplaced, and this ultimately gets them in trouble.

What about the other guilty party? The school !!

Does it not seem a bit odd that the very schools who preach to kids to ignore peer pressure when it comes to alcohol, drugs and *** are the first to use it as a disciplinary measure?

Surely they can use a little more effort to find out who is the guilty party vs. blanket punishment for all.

Okay, I'm off my soap box for now.

quote:

Originally posted by Tfusa20:
The loyalty should come from player A....not allowing is fellow team mates to suffer consequences that do not apply to them.

I (as a player) would give player A an opportunity to set it straight himself...if he chose not to...I would make sure my college career was not jepardized by player A's actions and my silence.

The bottom line is to give player A an opportunity to show his loyalty to us as team mates...if he does not, then the answer is simple...

JMO

I agree

We have come so far or have we? As an old timer Player A steps up and does not let his team mates go for a fall. that is loualty?

The bottom line is player A did not step up. And B C D did not either. If they know that player A is doing something that is wrong and they are there and they dont stop him where is their loyalty? If they are not willing or able to stop him they should leave the room and when appropriate have a stiff talk with him and tell him if it does not stop he will be turned in. If your in the car with someone and they pull out a joint. You dont participate so your not doing anything wrong right? Wrong - You either step up and tell him to get rid of it right away you wont be around it - or you get the heck out of the car so your not around it. In the situation given why are you still in the room with someone that is breaking the rules? Either stop him or get out of there. Should they have turned him in? Why did it get to that point in the first place? You dont put your teamates in that situation in the first place if you do you forfeit your loyalty coupons. And you dont allow yourself to get put in these situations by ignoring wrong doing just because you were not actively taking part in them. The mere fact that you knew it was wrong and you stayed there or allowed it to go on implicates you as well.

Let me throw this one on you. Coach sends 12 guys down to the track during practice to get in some distance running during practice. He tells them to run 20 minutes and sprint for 10 seconds every 2 minutes them come back to the field when they are done running. After about 10 minutes you decide that you need one of the kids for something and you walk down to the track while the other coaches are taking care of practice. As you are approaching the track you see that two of the boys are walking and playing around in other words they are not running like the rest. You decide to go back to the field and not say anything right then. After practice you call the boys over and say "How did it go on the track guys"? "Did everyone run and take care of business"? The boys say "Sure did coach everyone did what you asked". Now as a coach are you more dissapointed in the two that did not run or the ten that allowed this violation of loyalty to the coach and the team to go on? You wait for the boys to come to you to tell you the deal but no one steps up. So you decided to send them back to the track the next day and you go and watch to see if it happens again. It does while you are watching from a distance. How would you handle this and how would you feel about the boys that were not running and the boys that allowed their teamates to do this without telling the coach or taking care of it on their own. Is this loyalty or is this disloyal? I have my own opinions but I would rather here what you guys think.

This kind of thing happened to my hockey-playing son at Thanksgiving.

He and two teammates met up with three girls at the hotel they were staying at for a showcase. They missed curfew by about an hour. My son was trying to sneak back to his room when the coach caught him. He said loudly, HI COACH, so the other players knew to duck away so they wouldn't get caught.

My son, never said a word. He got suspended for the game and in the doghouse for the next week. The game he missed doubled as a league game. Other two kids played and proved to be important in a close game.

As it worked out, the coach finally got some of the details (but never the other kids) about three weeks later, though he about the last to know. Teammates and parents have been very gracious to my son throughout the season, but even more so since this happened.

It obviously depends on the age of the kids involved and the severity of the offense. But I can tell you that it builds a trust that, now that they're getting ready for the postseason, really begins to show.

jemaz & TFusa hit the nail on the head...

Intergrity is the foundation of "loyalty"...What these kids were showing was "fear of retribution", not loyalty.

Player A is the one who lacks loyalty...he broke the rules...he lacked loyalty to his team mates as well as to the coach...he lacks the integrity to accept culpability for his wrong doing...this is not a "team" player...he is selfish and self centered...the other three could have and should have said something but if A refuses to heed the warnings of team mates there is little or nothing they can do to reverse the situation...what they should do is get out of the situation ASAP otherwise they are guilty by association...IMHO

Once I had 2 catchers who I sent on a top field to work on pick ups. I was working on other things. I decided to go up and take a peek. they were sitiing down watching a lacrosse game. My devious mind started working. I sent a player to go up and get them. when they came down I asked how did it go. they said fine. Worked hard? I asked. They said yes. I commented on how I was impressed with the new technique of blocking balls they had discovered. Sitting and watching girls play lacrosse. I told them to take off their equipment and sign up for the lacrosse team as they seemed more interested in that. Of course i was not serious(but in a way I was).I Let them stew overnight. Never saw them work so hard the next day in practice.

C'mon Will some of those lacrosse chicks are HOT!

Any kid who would let his teammates, his "brothers", on the team take the fall for his own stupidity is not much of a friend! Part of being a part of a team is understanding the enormous responsibility that comes with being a part of something bigger than yourself. I love team unity...but there has to be a limit. This kid jeopardized his team for his own selfish reasons....wouldn't want that type of kid in MY program, I can tell you that!

Had a similar situation happen last summer where players in one room messed up one of the walls playing darts. When I addressed the players that the room belonged to. They admitted that it was done in their room and they would all be responsible. I thought about it overnight and decided that punishment was needed and gave the guilty parties their punishment after practice the next day.

What I then saw was something that made me proud to have these young men represent our club. Several players came to me while the room mates were being punished (lunges) and said "coach I threw darts too, I need to be out there with my team mates". When all was said and done about 6 more players stepped up and accepted punishment for being a part of the damage and not letting their team mates do it alone.

Yes I had a special group of players last summer. I will never forget them as they demonstrated daily throughout the entire summer that it was about the group not any one individual.

Tfusa

YES , you did have a very special of group of young men

They showed that they were a "TEAM" in more ways than one

They are to be commended