Maine South Head Football Coach

Intersting post from "hammy" who obviously doesn't keep Kosher.

Gees...Next thing you know, the Coach will have to get all of his motivational "slogans" for high school football players approved by the ADL!

How ridiculous. The super agreed that it was an honest mistake, yet suspended the coach for a game. Why?

As an educater, if he didn't know,he should have. That is a highly offensive quote. The lesson outweighs the one football game.

bballdad....

I came to America in 1949, having survived the German-Russian battlefields that were Lithuania while fleeing as refugees.

Consider myself an educated man.

Never heard of the phrase.

But then, maybe its because I don't live and breathe what happened in the world/to me 55 years ago.

rosy....please comment.

This seems way "over the top" to me.

Soxnole, I appreciate the respect that you've shown me by asking me to respond.

I'll start out by saying that I am as bothered as others at the amount of political correctness BS that now permeates the media and our society. I believe that some, or most of it is ridiculous in nature and gets way too much attention. Some good people have had their careers and lives altered by unintentional remarks or writings.

That being said, I do believe that this may be different. I say that not just because I'm a Jew, but because of just what the Nazi regime stood for and what they tried to accomplish.

Unless you know families who lost their grandparents to the camps, unless you know survivors who lost their entire "first families" including parents, brothers and sisters and others you cannot understand what that sign at the entrance of Auschewitz meant. It was the first thing the people who got off the trains saw and read as they arrived. That was, of course, to keep them calm and make them believe that they were in a work camp. Instead, the old, the women and the children were herded into the gas chambers, executed and burned in the ovens. Those exact words should never be dismissed or made light of considering their origin.

As for the one game suspension for the coach, I'm kind of ambivalent. He acknowledged immediately the impropriety of what he did and for me, that would have been enough. He is held in high regard both in his school and in the community. But if the one game setdown caused this story to be printed and discussed, then I think that there was a positive side to this. As a people we must say NEVER AGAIN.

I will take issue with Beenthere's final remark.He may choose to ignore what happened in the world/to him 55 years ago. The Jewish people simply cannot. We can never allow the civilized world to forget what one man could do to an entire race,and now I'll throw out another saying. "History has a way of repeating itself".

Beenthere: I am surprise at your comments. First, if you have ever watched the History Channel, especially programs about WWII or the Holocaust, you more than likely would have seen pictures of the archway leading into the workcamp area of Auswitz bearing the phrase, in German, "work makes one free". I suggest that you either go to Washington D.C. and visit the National Holocaust Museum, or visit the National Holocaust Museum website, where you will definitely see that archway and other pictures to better illustrate the negative images invoked by that phrase.

FYI, I had many relatives die in WWII, many of them in the gas chambers at Auswitz. I have also been around survivors who retell unbelievable stories about life (and death) in the camps.

I find your comment that you "don't live and breathe what happened in the world 55 years ago" very disturbing.I have also been taught to "never forget". The phrase "those who do not study history are doomed to repeat it". I don't believe that your comments would ring true to those individuals living in Israel, many of whom either survived the camps (and an ordeal that I don't think any of us could, or would want, to understand) or who are descendents of those who survived (and lost loved ones) in the Holocaust. The fact that the leader of Iran has publicly stated that he wants to wipe the State of Israel into the sea and off the map is further reminder that those events of WWII should not be forgotten.

Since this is a baseball site, on a baseball level, (an in no way trivializing the comment), if a batter hits 2 homers on inside fastballs, I don't think that pitch with be a pitcher's first choice the next time that batter comes to the plate. That pitcher better understand the "history".

Also, although not on the scale of the Holocaust, there have been other genocidal atrocities in Cambodia in the 1970's, Rwanda today, Bosnia (in the name of "ethnic cleansing") and Iraq (the mass murder of the Kurds by Saddaam Hussein). So, although not living and breathing history, hopefully you are aware of what happened 55 years ago and that it can, and does, happen now.

The above items are the images stirred by the Maine South coach's statement. Although I do not think he meant it in an antisemtic way, and was merely trying to use a known phrase to inspire his team to perform through hard work, it was insensitive to thousands, if not millions, of people. IMO, the punishment fit the crime. I hope the coach learned to be a bit more careful in making statements, and, that he and his team may have learned something about the statement's origins and negative connotations it invokes, thereby turning a negative into a positive.

rosy...you have and alway's will have, my total respect.

As a member of a different decimated Tribe, I can feel the hurt. Most are unaware that the "Famine" in Ireland killed millions and sent millions more to other lands. (sound familiar?)

This "famine" was brought upon the Irish people by the English. This "famine" is just one part of the systematic violence brought upon Ireland and the Irish people for the last 1000 years.

I'll spare you further history but my question is this:

If the HS coach had absolutely NO idea that this slogan was historically signifigant in the manner that it most certainly is, then he did no wrong.

I do agree that it is good that the slogan has been brought to light for all of us that were unaware of it's reationship to the nazi's unspeakable horror.

The publicity was good but the punishment is wrong, imo.

Soxnole,

What's that saying? "Ignorance of the law is no defense."

Peace.

rosy,

I understand your position.

However:

When the monster Oliver Cromwell brought the black & tan to rape and pillage Ireland, many Irish added an "e" to the end of thier name to show solidarity with the protestant English reign, thereby avoiding conflict and probable death. (Kelley)(Clarke) and so on. This made Cromwell's job to find and execute Irish Catholic's much easier.

Should we persecute these families as traitor's now? The vast majority of them have no clue about thier ancestor's cowardice.

Should they have a clue?

Should we live and let live?

Maybe I'm seeing your point!

Btw, there is a school of thought that the Irish are the lost Tribe.

Call us the first "Jews for Jesus".

Interesting stuff.

I knew this was going to result in everyone giving me a History lesson and that is why I posted it.

Did the coach at Maine South know that that phrase was written on an entrance gate in German at Auchwitz? I don't believe so for one minute!

Please don't start gratuitously lecturing me about people dying at the hands of Nazis. My own father died when he was "drafted", as a refugee, into the German army.

I wanted this discussion to stay on course because I truly believed the coach did nothing wrong, except that he wasn't politically correct, according to the ADL.

I don't even know the guy and I'm defending him because I think he "got screwed" by his own administrators.

I agree, 100% with soxnole's last 3 statements on the 5:14 post! No more, no less.

As a Jew, I was not offended by the comment the coach put on the lockers, as I am 100% positive it was unintentional. Rather than suspend the coach, educate him about the magnitude of throwing around that phrase and the countless people he is offending. If I were Maine South, I would've made the coach sit down and watch "Shindler's List" or History Channel footage on the Holocaust. Maybe I'm naive and such a "punishment" is unrealistic, but punishing ignorance is not the way to solve it.

The guy sounds like he's a fairly upstanding community member.

Imposing this consequence could have the effect of causing some people to believe that he was aware of the fact that he lifted this quote from the translation of this infamous sign at Auschwitz.

I strongly feel that he was convicted of being aware of the origins of the quote?

Sounds like a classic screw up. I don't feel that all coaches and teachers should be expected to know, or, remember this historical fact. Many of them may have never even learned it.

I feel that a better soloution would have been for the school to require the coach to write an open letter to the players on the team, the local paper, the school paper..etc., explaining his error and apologizing for any harm done.

Rosy, with all due respect, "Ignorance of the law is no defense" doesn't really apply in this instance. I understand what you are trying to get across there, but, It's really a matter of ignorance, or, more appropriately, lack of knowledge of history, and specifcally, a particular and extremely foreboding quote. The Jewish people have details of this period committed to memory as part of a survival instinct, a way to make sure this never happens again. Non-Jews, in a very general sense, have not had these details handed down through families and through education. They get it in school, but not in the type of depth and color that Jewish folks receive it in.

It's obvious that this guy heard that quote somewhere and, out of context, it seemed like a great tool for him to use to motivate his team on a game day. When you take that quote out of context it almost sounds like a Lombard-ism... Something like that.

Oh yeah..Beenthere...Boris up there is correct. I don't post here much but i do read quite a bit and I was surprised to see you make that statement.

I wont even say another word on that..Our individual and collective histories are golden, profound and repetitious...if you allow them to be. Or, more to the point, if you don't learn from it/them.

It seems clear the coach did not know of the use of the quote by the nazis. Maybe I should be embarrassed but I too did not know the quote, but whenever I use something like that I do find out where it came from and it's context. If he puts out slogans like that regulary he should know what he is saying. I'll bet he does from now on......hopefully he doesn't stop doing it.....it is a great tool to motivate as well as maybe getting the kids to think a little.

We do get touchy about things, but if I had walked in someone else's shoes I may have understood the degree of offensiveness of the quote.

The one game suspension? Who knows maybe even the coach helped determine that but it isn't the end of the world. The guy seems to be a great coach and we need more like him in that way. Other times politcal correctness has made life tough for teachers and coaches who are teaching the best lessons, we need to let good men do what they do.

In this case, a lesson was learned by many.

I too am Jewish, so my opinion is obviously subjective. If someone has no emotional attatchment at all, it could look like the coach got punished for being "not politically correct".
However, I agree with the people that say many people were educated about an important part of history because he was punished, and that's what got it in the news. A greater good was served IMO. High School should be more about education than football. He missed one game. He wasn't fired, fined, or even missed pratice. I think it was a good object lesson. Missing one game for making such a large point is reasonable.
Soxnole, I have been to Ireland twice. I like Bushmills, but ask permission to drink it as it has an Orange label, not the Green of Jameson. I am very aware of "the troubles".
Don't forget about what is going on in Dafur TODAY. Genocide needs to be stopped whereever it is. That is the lesson of the Holocaust.

bballdad1954:

The "greater good" theory is spot on.

I think we can certainly agree that education trumps ignorance.

Quick Irish whiskey story:

2 fellows sat in a Catholic Bar in Cushendall.

I walked in exausted from driving all day.

My Irish American father had forbid Bushmills from our table.

I was shocked to see the men with shot glasses and a bottle of Black Bush in front of them.

One was 80+ and the other about 25 with earrings and a mohawk (looked like a Brit sokker hooligan).

I asked "How come you fellows are drinking Bushmills?"

After asking twice and waiting more than a minute for an answer, the young one looks up and growls......"Cuuz it's the fookin best!"

He was right!

True story.

I agree with you, frankdog.

No lesson is learned but resentment for someone being punished for something that was OBVIOUSLY UNINTENTIONAL.

By the way....I did a poll of about 15 very educated Jewish people that I do business with on a daily basis. Only one had heard of the phrase and he didn't place in context.

If you claim to have asked "15 very educated Jewish people" (whatever that means) and they all feigned ignorance on the subject, then you can remove the "very educated" from their resumes.

I think the time to end this discussion is now.

Finally, Rosy has made a statement that, hopefully, no one will disagree with!! Great suggestion Rosy!! Although, I must say that even though this subject has nothing to do with this forum, I have learned alot from all the people contributing on this subject.

"...very educated Jewish people", for your information, Rosy, are Jewish businessmen in the commercial loan community who have graduate degrees in finance and years in business.

Why the continuing cynicism and sarcasm in most of your posts, rosy?

I see where Puffer also "called you out"!

This is not an AOL chatroom and I don't need History lessons from you or anyone else.

It was initially intended to be a very narrow discussion about a guy being suspended for an innocent reference (even his administrators acknowledged that).

Hey Been, didn't mean to back you into a corner.

As for the sarcasm and cynicism I accept full responsibilty. I'll try to do better next time.

As I suggested, hasn't this thread run its course?

I agree...this has run it's course!

BTW, ISN'T A PUFFER FISH THE ONE THAT KILLS ITSELF WHEN CAUGHT?....LOLOLOLOL

its...No problem.

I was having a "bad hair" day and reacted.

Fighting soldiers from the sky
Fearless men who jump and die
Men who mean just what they say
The brave men of the Green Berets

Silver wings upon their chests
These are men America's best
One hundred men will test today
But only three win the Green Beret

Trained to live off nature's land
Trained to combat hand-to-hand
Men who fight by night and day
Courage taken from the Green Beret

Silver wings upon their chests
These are men America's best
One hundred men will test today
But only three win the Green Beret

Back at home a young wife waits
Her Green Beret has met his fate
He has died for those oppressed
Leaving her this last request

Put silver wings on my son's chest
Make him one of America's best
He'll be a man they'll test one day
Have him win the Green Beret

Tuz...Huh? You're back in the late '60's and early '70's!

Since this was school related activity, it was completely inappropriate. Rather than a suspension, the coach should have been given a free trip to the Holocaust Museum in D.C. as mentioned previously.

My question is, if there were any Jewish players on the team what was there reaction? I personally would have torn it down and declined to play for that coach and school.

Also, one might be educated such as mentioned by Beenthere ... but that does not make them knowledgeable. As a Jew, I feel that if I didn't know this expression I would be ashamed of myself.

Saw a European tour program on WTTW earlier this evening.

They (Steve's) visited Poland.

Saw the entry gate to Auschwitz (sp)...see what you all meant.

Unspeakable sorrow.

i realize i may be out of line, but should this saying never be used again?not being familiar with this saying before reading this . i would have thought of it as a motivating slogan.

it sounds like something an amish farmer might say etc.i'll admitt i am ignorant to quite a bit of the history of that era. and don't mean to be insenceative to this.but i wouldn't think twice about this slogan used in the context the coach used it.

i'm sorry if i offended any one.

Thanks Beenthere. Good for you.

Ditto.