NCAA will be dealing with a major scandal - coaches indicted.
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Holy crap!
From the AP:
"Authorities say the coaches accepted bribes in exchange for admitting students as athletes, regardless of their ability."
And now we finally have the answer to the question "How did THAT kid get recruited?" Just kidding.
Penn's former basketball coach pleaded guilty to a similar charge a few months ago:
The scheme involved students who attended or were seeking to attend Georgetown University, Stanford University, UCLA, and other top colleges.
I'm glad I didn't see St. Bonaventure mentioned.
Is it April 1? I thought we were still in March.
https://www.justice.gov/usao-m...sting-bribery-scheme
that's a long list of folks...
Holy smokes!
- "it is alleged that the head women's soccer coach at Yale was paid $400,000 to accept a student even though the applicant did not play soccer." https://abc7chicago.com/actres...ssions-scam/5186103/
- Associate AD at USC is alleged to have received $1.3 million in bribes:
https://twitter.com/nathanfenn.../1105506855315419136
- Actress Lori Loghlin is alleged to have paid $500,000 in bribes to have her daughters designated as crew recruits:
Geezusss... these schools, mostly, are supposed to represent America's finest and most reputable learning institutions.
It's almost like college coaches that are paid more than the dean care more about sports than ethics and the academic process.
Weird, yeah?
Wow.
Glad they got caught. Kids, who apparently were unaware of the parent's schemes, must be humiliated.
This is a new low both for overzealous parents, and some of the employees of supposedly HA schools. If I was the dean of those schools I would want the book thrown at the culprits.
Other than the coach pocketing the money how is this different than prestigious colleges and universities taking huge donations from wealthy alumni so their academically below average kids get accepted? It’s been going on for generations.
RJM posted:Other than the coach pocketing the money how is this different than prestigious colleges and universities taking huge donations from wealthy alumni so their academically below average kids get accepted? It’s been going on for generations.
Well, the school gets to decide how they determine whether to let a kid in. If they decide that a donation of $1 million -- or whatever -- makes it worthwhile to let a kid in, they can do it. As far as I know, the schools never agreed that they would let in only the most academically qualified.
Coaches and Athletic Directors accepting bribes seems very, very different to me.
This reminds me of an old saying in business that has kept consultants busy for years - "Where there is mystery there is margin ($)". There is plenty of mystery surrounding the college admissions process, so it's no wonder it is ripe for shady characters and backroom dealings, and people looking for a way to make a buck. Until they open up about how admissions decisions are really made I don't see this type of thing going away. People are always going to be looking for an edge.
RJM posted:Other than the coach pocketing the money how is this different than prestigious colleges and universities taking huge donations from wealthy alumni so their academically below average kids get accepted? It’s been going on for generations.
Bribe paid to school: legal extortion
Bribe paid to coach: illegal extortion
MidAtlanticDad posted:RJM posted:Other than the coach pocketing the money how is this different than prestigious colleges and universities taking huge donations from wealthy alumni so their academically below average kids get accepted? It’s been going on for generations.
Bribe paid to school: legal extortion
Bribe paid to coach: illegal extortion
Exactly
I was all set to rip on two of my cousin’s Ivies for being on the list. Then, dammit there was my school.
Bribe or donation paid to school helps other students at the school (new hall, training facility, etc) bribe paid to coach just helps that coach. Very different IMO.
These people have no shame!! Our kids have to work their butts off for years to get into these schools the honest way and many who qualify still don't get in! 
What happens when their kids get in to a top school on a bribe and then can't meet the academic rigors? Do their parents bribe employers too??
2020Hopeful posted:What happens when their kids get in to a top school on a bribe and then can't meet the academic rigors?
Attachments
SC's men's and women's water polo coach was one charged. 15-time national coach of the year, 16 national championships.
nycdad posted:Bribe or donation paid to school helps other students at the school (new hall, training facility, etc) bribe paid to coach just helps that coach. Very different IMO.
Fair.
What about those Honorary Doctor degrees bestowed on Athletes and Actors.
Pay to Play and influence peddling is rampant in USA
Back to Baseball- There’s many reasons why MLB will have 50% int’l players by 2022.
They just play the game at a high level and later for the academics.
Not judging
Well, there are legal ways to use money to your advantage. But I guess bribery works wonders where all else fails.
"This is an extreme, unsubtle and illegal example of the increasingly common practice of using money to get an edge in the race for a place in an elite university,” said Chris Hunt, who runs College Essay Mentor, a consulting service for applicants. “The more common practice is to spend money in indirect ways: High-priced test prep. Coaches so your kid can be a recruited athlete. Donations as an alum. Donations as a non-alum.”
Names and charges ...
https://www.justice.gov/usao-m...sting-bribery-scheme
Article with who the people are ...
Do y’all actually believe the kids applying to college (most of them, anyhow) didn’t know some of this was going on? Applicants were posed in fake photos as if playing sports they never participated in. Impostors took SAT and ACT on the kids’ behalf. The students don’t all seem to be innocent victims.
And I imagine there are a lot of folks out there feeling pretty nervous right now about their own children’s college application process. (“Out there” meaning in wealthy zip codes across the US, not HSB web commenters.) I always assumed stuff like this went on—the admissions process is a black box and the perceived value of getting in these schools is so high that it seems inevitable.
Chico Escuela posted:Do y’all actually believe the kids applying to college (most of them, anyhow) didn’t know some of this was going on? Applicants were posed in fake photos as if playing sports they never participated in. Impostors took SAT and ACT on the kids’ behalf. The students don’t all seem to be innocent victims.
This was my thought as well. Kids also tend to know where they fit in the academic pecking order. However, I also believe that kids tend to believe their parents when they are told "everybody does this stuff".
Chico Escuela posted:Do y’all actually believe the kids applying to college (most of them, anyhow) didn’t know some of this was going on? Applicants were posed in fake photos as if playing sports they never participated in. Impostors took SAT and ACT on the kids’ behalf. The students don’t all seem to be innocent victims.
And I imagine there are a lot of folks out there feeling pretty nervous right now about their own children’s college application process. (“Out there” meaning in wealthy zip codes across the US, not HSB web commenters.) I always assumed stuff like this went on—the admissions process is a black box and the perceived value of getting in these schools is so high that it seems inevitable.
Getting screwed out of one situation isn’t going to ruin a student’s life. If the student has any mental strength at all he/she will prosper some place else. People tend to sweat too much stuff not worth sweating. If a person wants something badly enough they will find a way. Sometimes doors are opened. Sometimes they have to be kicked in. But there’s always a way to get through the door. The mistake these parents made was thinking they could pay to be sneaked in the back door.
With or without sports unless the family is delusional the kids and parents know where the kid fits in. If you don’t get into one college you get into another comparable college.
A cousin was devastated when he wasn’t accepted to Harvard. He went to another Ivy. He’s now a senior partner in one of the most prestigious law firms in the country. He’s recognized nationally as one of the top lawyers in his field. It seems he recovered from the devastation of rejection.
The real question is how bad were the daughter's grades if it was going to take half a million to get her into USC? Wow.
I don't care much for the parents getting caught, things like this happens daily. I'm glad they outed the coaches though. I'm sure there is some kid at a camp somewhere doing all the right things wondering why they haven't received an offer.
nycdad posted:Bribe or donation paid to school helps other students at the school (new hall, training facility, etc) bribe paid to coach just helps that coach. Very different IMO.
There also is no quid pro quo for the donation. So I can agree to donate $20 million for a new university building (or imply that I will in the future), and the president of the school will not (explicitly) agree to admit my kid to her school. The college is a nonprofit and my donation is tax-deductible (in part because I didn't receive anything of value in exchange for my $20M). But if I offer a coach a payment specifically so that he will admit my kid, then we have a problem--even more so if I tried to claim a deduction for some of the unlawful payments, as has been alleged. So we have tax fraud, the coach has defrauded his employer, I have participated in a racketeering scheme with the coach and others, any emails, letters or calls I sent to further the scheme are instances of mail or wire fraud... the charges multiply pretty fast.
PABaseball posted:The real question is how bad were the daughter's grades if it was going to take half a million to get her into USC? Wow.
I don't care much for the parents getting caught, things like this happens daily. I'm glad they outed the coaches though. I'm sure there is some kid at a camp somewhere doing all the right things wondering why they haven't received an offer.
Fifty kids over eight years isn’t going to impact recruiting. Besides they’re getting accepted as non scholarship, bottom of the roster athletes. These are the slots where kids end up transferring or quit playing.
Loughlin’s has two daughters. One of them has a high social media profile with over two million followers. She’s been very open she’s only at USC for the party scene to enhance her Instagram profile. The family is wealthier than God. Her father is an Italian fashion designer.
RJM posted:Other than the coach pocketing the money how is this different than prestigious colleges and universities taking huge donations from wealthy alumni so their academically below average kids get accepted? It’s been going on for generations.
It just makes good business sense. A direct bribe under the table to the coach must be pennies on the dollar compared to an over the table contribution to the University. Besides, you will then have something to blackmail the coach with later if your smart and record the taking of the bribe.
Once dirty, always dirty.
So, what punishments are due: 1. The coach who betrayed his employer, his charges, his morals, and the kid who did everything right to earn a athelete reserved spot - sailing time or no sailing time - at Stanford; 2. The parent who made it all happen and who betrayed [fill in the blank]; 3. The kids who are still at the schools (you can assume or not that every kid knew); 4. The test administrator who knew.
A total betrayal of a system. And not a victimless crime. For EVERY SINGLE "recruit," a kid who colored in the lines lost a chance to go to, e.g., Stanford, Yale and get a good life head start.
In our community, we feel the betrayal at a gut level.
How many of the wealthy people do time? I say none.
Outside a plea deal for valuable evidence how many of the enablers (coaches, administrators, etc.) do time? I say all of them.
RJM posted:PABaseball posted:The real question is how bad were the daughter's grades if it was going to take half a million to get her into USC? Wow.
I don't care much for the parents getting caught, things like this happens daily. I'm glad they outed the coaches though. I'm sure there is some kid at a camp somewhere doing all the right things wondering why they haven't received an offer.
Fifty kids over eight years isn’t going to impact recruiting. Besides they’re getting accepted as non scholarship, bottom of the roster athletes. These are the slots where kids end up transferring or quit playing.
Loughlin’s has two daughters. One of them has a high social media profile with over two million followers. She’s been very open she’s only at USC for the party scene to enhance her Instagram profile. The family is wealthier than God. Her father is an Italian fashion designer.
I meant more along the lines of admissions tips. An athlete with borderline academics would most likely be passed over if no green light from the coach in admissions.
A New York Times writer agrees with me ...
“The wrinkle here is that the schemes were actually criminal and will apparently be prosecuted, and for once the colleges’ administrators were in the dark about them. But they’re versions of routine favor trading and favoritism that have long corrupted the admissions process, leeching merit from the equation.”
This kind stuff isn't new or going away. These people chose a poor route for how to go about it. I do agree it is a shame but honestly we have much bigger issues going in the country that in my opinion this isn't much more then a speed bump.
So, I think more information is needed before casting a net over of the NCAA. Clearly some criminal organization was set up to by some ring leaders, admissions officers, coaches and very feeble minded parents who happen to be rich celebrities. I wonder how far this thing goes down the rabbit hole....do we just know of a few crimes or is it more systemic. I've been reading up on this but I'd really like to know more. They keep repeating the same info, so waiting for a little more data points to become public.
My thought was exactly the same as PABaseball..."The real question is how bad were the daughter's grades if it was going to take half a million to get her into USC? Wow." The daughter must have had very low self esteem to watch the parents try to pull this off for her, and probably even lower now that they've been caught. That kid is going to be messed up and need some serious counseling.
fenwaysouth posted:My thought was exactly the same as PABaseball..."The real question is how bad were the daughter's grades if it was going to take half a million to get her into USC? Wow." The daughter must have had very low self esteem to watch the parents try to pull this off for her, and probably even lower now that they've been caught. That kid is going to be messed up and need some serious counseling.
At least one of the kids involved who is attending USC is an Instagram "influencer" with almost 2 million followers. Several major news stories have covered her and excerpted some of her posts. Based on those articles, I'd say lack of self esteem is not an issue for her...
A quick Google search shows USC students have an average ACT of 32. That's 96th percentile. Average high school GPA is 3.73. I have no ties to the school and live on the opposite coast, but based on the numbers, getting in is far from easy. (And no, a $500k donation isn't going to get your kid admitted at a school with the kind of resources USC has. Their endowment is $5.5 billion.)
Today's NY Times has a really interesting editorial about this scandal. They point out that the issue for the schools isn't meritocracy, but property rights. The colleges want the right to admit legacies or children of donors so as to maximize fundraising. When a coach or other employee takes money for admission, that person is, in effect, pocketing the proceeds for selling a spot in the class instead of allowing the school to do so. That is an incredibly cynical take, but there is a lot of truth in it.
The ultimate question. Will the NCAA strip the coaches of having a certain number of players who don't have to meet the eligibility requirements to get in college. Will they take those away to stop coaches from having a say and this being an issue?
I say no because then you would not have football and basketball teams at many of the elite schools if every player had to meet the true eligibility requirements.
I remember one school telling one of my sons "I have an exemption to get you in the school. I'm just not sure I can keep you in school with your grades."
PitchingFan posted:
I remember one school telling one of my sons "I have an exemption to get you in the school. I'm just not sure I can keep you in school with your grades."
This is a great observation that very few people seem to have much interest in.
old_school posted:PitchingFan posted:
I remember one school telling one of my sons "I have an exemption to get you in the school. I'm just not sure I can keep you in school with your grades."
This is a great observation that very few people seem to have much interest in.
But on the other hand, I remember one coach telling my son, getting in is the hard part. Once you get here, we'll help make sure you stay here.
The thing that I don't get about this is -- how do the prosecutors see the hierarchy of the conspirators? RJM's take, though cynical, is probably right -- the parents won't do the time. But should they? It's not a perfect analogy but it seems to me this is kind of like a prostitution ring. The coaches are the prostitutes. Yes, they know they are committing a crime and deserve to be punished for it, but they are also being used. The parents are the johns - they didn't come up with this scheme; they were enticed into it by a shady guy. The guy who ran the scheme is the human trafficker and needs to have the book thrown at him. So I don't get why they prosecutors apparently cut a deal with him to rope the others in. I hope it's not a very good deal, because this is a very, very bad guy. Maybe some of our lawyers here have a take...
I heard a coach from a local D3 put another way in a recent recruiting seminar q&a session discussing grades. To paraphrase; If he had two ballplayers that were similar, one had a 3.1, and one had a 3.6, He would take the one that had the 3.6 because he has figured out how to mange his extra-curricular activities and still get the school work done. The 3.1 has not figured out how to manage his time and would require extra work on the coaching staffs part to keep the player in school and eligible. Being a college athlete is a grind and HS GPA is an indicator of work ethic and correlates to academic success at the next level.
JCG postedBut on the other hand, I remember one coach telling my son, getting in is the hard part. Once you get here, we'll help make sure you stay here.
The thing that I don't get about this is -- how do the prosecutors see the hierarchy of the conspirators? RJM's take, though cynical, is probably right -- the parents won't do the time. But should they? It's not a perfect analogy but it seems to me this is kind of like a prostitution ring. The coaches are the prostitutes. Yes, they know they are committing a crime and deserve to be punished for it, but they are also being used. The parents are the johns - they didn't come up with this scheme; they were enticed into it by a shady guy. The guy who ran the scheme is the human trafficker and needs to have the book thrown at him. So I don't get why they prosecutors apparently cut a deal with him to rope the others in. I hope it's not a very good deal, because this is a very, very bad guy. Maybe some of our lawyers here have a take...
(I'm a lawyer, but never practiced criminal law. So this is at best a partly-informed answer):
Your analogy is a good one and you make some good points. I'd offer two countervailing considerations: 1) Prosecutors often (not always) want a media splash if they can get it--for selfish reasons and unselfish ones. Being associated with a high-profile prosecution is a good career move. Unselfishly, the media attention will scare some folks straight, and may persuade others to offer information in exchange for a deal. Law enforcement caught a guy and he offered to implicate others and expose a wider scheme. The US Attorney decided it was worth a plea deal to get the others involved. Without the deal, maybe only the ringleader can be charged and you never read about the prosecution in the news.
2) It's good to be the first person to cut a deal; those who want a deal later have to be able to offer valuable information folks ahead of them in the plea deal line did not. Also, the ringleader really isn't a public figure in this case, but others are. "John Smith arrested" doesn't make national headlines, but charges against Hollywood actresses and CEOs is (see point #1). If a CEO or actress had gone to prosecutors before others did, s/he might have gotten a sweet deal.
Time to start taxing those schools with endowments in the billions..no need for them to have that much in reserve..Trump favors this..the Feds already have their stool pigeon in Singer so the others are unlikely to get no jail time plea deals..that's how the Feds work..there are sentencing guidelines that are fairly rigid...many will be doing time..Lori Loughlin included.
Chico Escuela posted:fenwaysouth posted:My thought was exactly the same as PABaseball..."The real question is how bad were the daughter's grades if it was going to take half a million to get her into USC? Wow." The daughter must have had very low self esteem to watch the parents try to pull this off for her, and probably even lower now that they've been caught. That kid is going to be messed up and need some serious counseling.
At least one of the kids involved who is attending USC is an Instagram "influencer" with almost 2 million followers. Several major news stories have covered her and excerpted some of her posts. Based on those articles, I'd say lack of self esteem is not an issue for her...
A quick Google search shows USC students have an average ACT of 32. That's 96th percentile. Average high school GPA is 3.73. I have no ties to the school and live on the opposite coast, but based on the numbers, getting in is far from easy. (And no, a $500k donation isn't going to get your kid admitted at a school with the kind of resources USC has. Their endowment is $5.5 billion.)
USC a very good school and very hard to get into, no doubt. What I was saying was how bad were the grades that 100k wouldn't even cut it. I also don't think the money was being donated to the school. If I'm correct it was being donated to the fixers and coaches so that they would be accepted as athletes or thru connected people (lower admissions standards). So the school didn't want more money, the person behind the scam said sorry 150k isn't going to cut it. Grades must have been pretty bad.
Velo From The Stretch posted:I heard a coach from a local D3 put another way in a recent recruiting seminar q&a session discussing grades. To paraphrase; If he had two ballplayers that were similar, one had a 3.1, and one had a 3.6, He would take the one that had the 3.6 because he has figured out how to mange his extra-curricular activities and still get the school work done. The 3.1 has not figured out how to manage his time and would require extra work on the coaching staffs part to keep the player in school and eligible. Being a college athlete is a grind and HS GPA is an indicator of work ethic and correlates to academic success at the next level.
I don't believe this to be true. He will take the better player every time. They don't care too much about what their students are doing once they get there, as long as they are eligible and going to class it really isn't their problem. Now if it were a tie breaker, sure the better student gets the nod, but when comparing two similar players they are going to take the more talented player.
PABaseball posted:Velo From The Stretch posted:I heard a coach from a local D3 put another way in a recent recruiting seminar q&a session discussing grades. To paraphrase; If he had two ballplayers that were similar, one had a 3.1, and one had a 3.6, He would take the one that had the 3.6 because he has figured out how to mange his extra-curricular activities and still get the school work done. The 3.1 has not figured out how to manage his time and would require extra work on the coaching staffs part to keep the player in school and eligible. Being a college athlete is a grind and HS GPA is an indicator of work ethic and correlates to academic success at the next level.
I don't believe this to be true. He will take the better player every time. They don't care too much about what their students are doing once they get there, as long as they are eligible and going to class it really isn't their problem. Now if it were a tie breaker, sure the better student gets the nod, but when comparing two similar players they are going to take the more talented player.
I could see it being true at a high academic. HA’s only get a few academic exceptions. A NESCAC coach told me he got six. But in general I agree they take the better player.
RJM posted:PABaseball posted:Velo From The Stretch posted:I heard a coach from a local D3 put another way in a recent recruiting seminar q&a session discussing grades. To paraphrase; If he had two ballplayers that were similar, one had a 3.1, and one had a 3.6, He would take the one that had the 3.6 because he has figured out how to mange his extra-curricular activities and still get the school work done. The 3.1 has not figured out how to manage his time and would require extra work on the coaching staffs part to keep the player in school and eligible. Being a college athlete is a grind and HS GPA is an indicator of work ethic and correlates to academic success at the next level.
I don't believe this to be true. He will take the better player every time. They don't care too much about what their students are doing once they get there, as long as they are eligible and going to class it really isn't their problem. Now if it were a tie breaker, sure the better student gets the nod, but when comparing two similar players they are going to take the more talented player.
I could see it being true at a high academic. HA’s only get a few academic exceptions. A NESCAC coach told me he got six. But in general I agree they take the better player.
Of course he will, because HA admissions generally do not sign off on students they think can't handle academics at their school. Coach is going to assume both kids can hack it there, so he'll take the player he wants most.
Apparently, these 50-some cases may be only the tip of the iceberg. The guy who pled guilty was caught on wiretaps bragging he had succeeded in getting over 700 kids admitted though the side door.
USC football may be involved. It will be interesting to see if the NCAA throws the book at the program. How about death penalty? 
Until this the other coaches have been under the public eye radar sports
Gives rich people a bad name.
Based on what I've seen reported to this point about the scandal, I don’t expect there to be sanctions against college athletic programs other than maybe probation, if that.
The reasons that I don’t expect significant sanctions against athletic programs as a whole are that:
- The students involved aren’t actually college athletes (based on what’s been reported) and didn’t compete for their colleges. Therefore, the teams and athletic programs didn’t actually gain any recruiting or competitive advantage over other universities.
- While the NCAA clearly has rules regarding “ethical conduct” pertaining to coaches, athletes, and athletic staff members, it doesn’t appear that the type of activities reported fall within the provisions of an ethical conduct violation. These students weren’t athletes and didn’t compete for their teams, so there shouldn’t be any NCAA recruiting or competition violations involved.
- Also, because these students weren’t athletes, it seems that they didn't receive anything that would constitute academic misconduct or impermissible benefits - at least as those situations pertain to NCAA rules.
Penalties against individual coaches, however, may be a different story. As we know, some coaches have already been fired as a result of their involvement. Coaches and athletic staff members will be violating the “ethical conduct” rules if they provide false or misleading information to their university or the NCAA when questioned about this situation, or if they refuse to provide relevant information.
It seems that what has been reported so far is just the “tip of the iceberg” with much more to become public knowledge about this scandal. That may cause me to have a different opinion as time goes on and we learn more details.
Rick, I have to disagree that at least some were not "athletes."
Let's look at Yale. The only way a player is "assured" admission is as a recruited athlete; otherwise the player is placed into - and competes - against the regular pool of applicants and, once admitted, shows up to practice. (My son's team had at least one such player every year.) The coach has no "hidden" spots. Moreover, there are special admissions committees whose SOLE PURPOSE is to screen athletic applications - and not a single member picked up a phone or noticed discrepancies in the application. (I won't even get into what the kid thought what was going on when she received the Likely Letter.) Yale admitted an athlete - as an athlete - without checking her bona fides; a simple phone call to the HS guidence counselor, the HS coach, the teachers who wrote LORs, would have revealed the fraud. Yale (and similar institutions [think Stanford] did not have in place procedures which would have easily revealed the fraud; Yale can't fall back on the "we're too stupid and gullible" defense.
Moreover, employees (coaches) are the agents of the University and as such under the laws pertaining to agency legally represent the University (which is the principal). If these schools with huge athletic budgets allow its coaches absolute feeedom to recruit WITHOUT EVER LAYING EYES ON THE KID then that is an institutional failure
If these cases aren't in the category of institutional failures (somewhere I recall that was used against universities in several athletic scandals), it's hard to think of more egregious cases. (How many schools have suffered penalties while the coach waltzes to another similar job?)
RJM posted:USC football may be involved. It will be interesting to see if the NCAA throws the book at the program. How about death penalty?
No program should get the Death Penalty until Penn State does retroactively
Goosegg posted:Rick, I have to disagree that at least some were not "athletes."
Let's look at Yale. The only way a player is "assured" admission is as a recruited athlete; otherwise the player is placed into - and competes - against the regular pool of applicants and, once admitted, shows up to practice. (My son's team had at least one such player every year.) The coach has no "hidden" spots. Moreover, there are special admissions committees whose SOLE PURPOSE is to screen athletic applications - and not a single member picked up a phone or noticed discrepancies in the application. (I won't even get into what the kid thought what was going on when she received the Likely Letter.) Yale admitted an athlete - as an athlete - without checking her bona fides; a simple phone call to the HS guidence counselor, the HS coach, the teachers who wrote LORs, would have revealed the fraud. Yale (and similar institutions [think Stanford] did not have in place procedures which would have easily revealed the fraud; Yale can't fall back on the "we're too stupid and gullible" defense.
Moreover, employees (coaches) are the agents of the University and as such under the laws pertaining to agency legally represent the University (which is the principal). If these schools with huge athletic budgets allow its coaches absolute feeedom to recruit WITHOUT EVER LAYING EYES ON THE KID then that is an institutional failure
If these cases aren't in the category of institutional failures (somewhere I recall that was used against universities in several athletic scandals), it's hard to think of more egregious cases. (How many schools have suffered penalties while the coach waltzes to another similar job?)
You make some very good arguments. And the NCAA could try to impose discipline under some generic "this makes college athletics look bad and you were asleep at the switch" theory. But no specific rules seem to have been broken. None of the relevant "athletes" played in intercollegiate games (I assume) and may never have even practiced. But even if they suited up and were on the roster, Yale wouldn't have taken any athlete who didn't easily meet the NCAA's required index numbers. Some Ivy League athletes presumably are well below their class medians for HS GPA and test scores (of course, roughly half the class is going to be below the median anyhow...), but so long as they are NCAA-eligible, what rule was broken? An athlete admitted to Yale is still going to have 90+ percentile test scores and well above-average HS academics. Yale may have damaged its own brand, but I'd confidently wager the kids involved in this scam had better academic records than a lot of D1 football and basketball players.
Fwiw, I wouldn't (prior to this week, anyhow) have expected anyone in admissions to verify that an athlete a coach was recruiting was actually playing the sport in question. The coaches are the schools' designated athletic experts. I assume admissions doesn't routinely investigate applicants' backgrounds unless something raises a red flag. If a kid says he was in the all-state orchestra or president of the Latin Club, the Admissions Office isn't typically going to call her HS to verify. I do take your point that athletics is a guaranteed "in" and so arguably different. But if Yale's soccer coach says she wants an athlete, that seems to me to be institutional due diligence enough that a kid actually plays the sport (again, prior to this week...).
3and2Fastball posted:RJM posted:USC football may be involved. It will be interesting to see if the NCAA throws the book at the program. How about death penalty?
No program should get the Death Penalty until Penn State does retroactively
The Sandusky situation had nothing to do with the football team. Penn State was grossly over penalized as a statement due to the times. The NCAA has already screwed up other investigations and had to hang a program.
That is my reply to bringing Penn State, a not current and long ago resolved situation into the conversation. I’m not doing the dance again. And I have no affiliation to Penn State.
3and2Fastball posted:RJM posted:USC football may be involved. It will be interesting to see if the NCAA throws the book at the program. How about death penalty?
No program should get the Death Penalty until Penn State does retroactively
A very strong case can be made that PSU was over penalized. Giving the program and the current/future players (who were 10 years old when that went down) the death penalty seems pretty extreme.
Coaches taking money to push fake athletes into the school is probably not worthy of the death penalty either as I'm sure the school had no knowledge in most cases considering the coaches were the ones cashing out, not the universities. Plus, the programs were not benefiting from the situation at all. If anything it hurt their chances of getting actual borderline academic recruits into the school.
RJM posted:3and2Fastball posted:RJM posted:USC football may be involved. It will be interesting to see if the NCAA throws the book at the program. How about death penalty?
No program should get the Death Penalty until Penn State does retroactively
The Sandusky situation had nothing to do with the football team. Penn State was grossly over penalized as a statement due to the times. The NCAA has already screwed up other investigations and had to hang a program.
That is my reply to bringing Penn State, a not current and long ago resolved situation into the conversation. I’m not doing the dance again. And I have no affiliation to Penn State.
Bullshit. The reason kids were allowed to be abused was because no one did anything about it to protect the program. By allowing the the program to still exist, they validated the cover-up. Anything short of that, and it was worth it to hide the problem.
Matt13 posted:RJM posted:3and2Fastball posted:RJM posted:USC football may be involved. It will be interesting to see if the NCAA throws the book at the program. How about death penalty?
No program should get the Death Penalty until Penn State does retroactively
The Sandusky situation had nothing to do with the football team. Penn State was grossly over penalized as a statement due to the times. The NCAA has already screwed up other investigations and had to hang a program.
That is my reply to bringing Penn State, a not current and long ago resolved situation into the conversation. I’m not doing the dance again. And I have no affiliation to Penn State.
Bullshit. The reason kids were allowed to be abused was because no one did anything about it to protect the program. By allowing the the program to still exist, they validated the cover-up. Anything short of that, and it was worth it to hide the problem.
I know you always have to have the last word. So have it. I’ve already stated I only responded because someone brought up the settled past. I also stated I’m not doing the dance again. So save you breath. Or since it’s online, your fingers. It’s over and done with. We’re on to current events. Go be angry someplace else. Pound your head against the wall if it will help.
In case anyone is wondering how this case came to light there is a lot in the Boston Globe. The investigation is out of the Boston FBI office.
It started, improbably, with a securities fraud investigation out of Boston, a so-called pump-and-dump stock scam that extended overseas.
FBI agents and federal prosecutors quickly homed in on a financial executive, according to several people familiar with the case, who said he was willing to cooperate with authorities. He also offered investigators a tantalizing tip, one entirely unrelated to stock prices — a Yale University women’s soccer coach had asked him for a bribe to help get his daughter admitted into the elite school.
RJM posted:Matt13 posted:RJM posted:3and2Fastball posted:RJM posted:USC football may be involved. It will be interesting to see if the NCAA throws the book at the program. How about death penalty?
No program should get the Death Penalty until Penn State does retroactively
The Sandusky situation had nothing to do with the football team. Penn State was grossly over penalized as a statement due to the times. The NCAA has already screwed up other investigations and had to hang a program.
That is my reply to bringing Penn State, a not current and long ago resolved situation into the conversation. I’m not doing the dance again. And I have no affiliation to Penn State.
Bullshit. The reason kids were allowed to be abused was because no one did anything about it to protect the program. By allowing the the program to still exist, they validated the cover-up. Anything short of that, and it was worth it to hide the problem.
I know you always have to have the last word. So have it. I’ve already stated I only responded because someone brought up the settled past. I also stated I’m not doing the dance again. So save you breath. Or since it’s online, your fingers. It’s over and done with. We’re on to current events. Go be angry someplace else. Pound your head against the wall if it will help.
I see you're back to projecting.
Matt13 posted:RJM posted:Matt13 posted:RJM posted:3and2Fastball posted:RJM posted:USC football may be involved. It will be interesting to see if the NCAA throws the book at the program. How about death penalty?
No program should get the Death Penalty until Penn State does retroactively
The Sandusky situation had nothing to do with the football team. Penn State was grossly over penalized as a statement due to the times. The NCAA has already screwed up other investigations and had to hang a program.
That is my reply to bringing Penn State, a not current and long ago resolved situation into the conversation. I’m not doing the dance again. And I have no affiliation to Penn State.
Bullshit. The reason kids were allowed to be abused was because no one did anything about it to protect the program. By allowing the the program to still exist, they validated the cover-up. Anything short of that, and it was worth it to hide the problem.
I know you always have to have the last word. So have it. I’ve already stated I only responded because someone brought up the settled past. I also stated I’m not doing the dance again. So save you breath. Or since it’s online, your fingers. It’s over and done with. We’re on to current events. Go be angry someplace else. Pound your head against the wall if it will help.
I see you're back to projecting.
Yawn
It is kinda late. 
2020Hopeful posted:These people have no shame!! Our kids have to work their butts off for years to get into these schools the honest way and many who qualify still don't get in!
Those kids are all becoming Instagram influencers anyway.
Regarding the bribery and legacies: a privately funded university never can be 100% about performance, they are for profit organisations. However they also can't lower the standard too much or they would hurt their product and lower the value of their graduations so it is a fine line for the school administration between maximizing profit and protecting their product.
But this is never an ethical decision but a pure financial one, you want to get in as money from legacies as you can without watering down the product too much. A "good" (as in financially successful) administration just goes to the edge but not over it.
I’ve been mulling this over: what IS okay to use to enhance admission possibilities?
Letters to the college president from a wealthy alum who knows your kid well?
Extra notes from alums who happened to teach your kid (in addition to the official rec letters being sent)
PABaseball posted:Velo From The Stretch posted:I heard a coach from a local D3 put another way in a recent recruiting seminar q&a session discussing grades. To paraphrase; If he had two ballplayers that were similar, one had a 3.1, and one had a 3.6, He would take the one that had the 3.6 because he has figured out how to mange his extra-curricular activities and still get the school work done. The 3.1 has not figured out how to manage his time and would require extra work on the coaching staffs part to keep the player in school and eligible. Being a college athlete is a grind and HS GPA is an indicator of work ethic and correlates to academic success at the next level.
I don't believe this to be true. He will take the better player every time. They don't care too much about what their students are doing once they get there, as long as they are eligible and going to class it really isn't their problem. Now if it were a tie breaker, sure the better student gets the nod, but when comparing two similar players they are going to take the more talented player.
THIS is spot on.
smokeminside posted:I’ve been mulling this over: what IS okay to use to enhance admission possibilities?
Letters to the college president from a wealthy alum who knows your kid well?
Extra notes from alums who happened to teach your kid (in addition to the official rec letters being sent)
I think anything legal is ok, these people were part of fraudulent situation. Allegedly they were paying for official grades to be changes, test scores upgraded by 40% and so forth.
I have a wealthy fried who wanted his kid to get into one of the Elite schools, his kid was kinda close but on the outside looking. He had a mutual friend set up a meeting with him and the school, a new endowment was created for a scholarship fur the school...and lo and behold little Johnny had himself a spot in the next class at XYZ University.
This type of stuff happens all the time, it is legal and honestly there shouldn't be any problem with it. As he told me, it is only money.
Interesting article in the NY Times today with some details about the kids who were falsely portrayed as athletes (link below). Goosegg, I have to say this supports the argument you made above that the schools were negligent. IMO, an advisor or admissions official isn't obligated to check out an applicant's athletic bona fides in ordinary cases; but some of these situations seem to have raised clear red flags that weren't investigated. That does start to look like a school isn't using reasonable diligence to police its athletics program, and the NCAA could decide to penalize that.
In any event, I think there are going to be quite a few more shoes dropping in this investigation. And it wouldn't surprise me at all to see some other college consultants arrested for doing similar things--could Singer really be the only one to have thought of this?
Chico Escuela posted:In any event, I think there are going to be quite a few more shoes dropping in this investigation. And it wouldn't surprise me at all to see some other college consultants arrested for doing similar things--could Singer really be the only one to have thought of this?
One article I read mentioned Singer said he "helped" 800 families. The 50 indicted so far may just be the tip of the iceberg.
One thing I’m tiring of is the “Woe is me” articles about how this affects other kids.
All through life there will be difficult challenges. Life isn’t easy. Some people just make it look easy because they don’t allow obstacles to get in their way. Losing isn’t final. Losing is a lesson.
If you don’t get into one college, get into another. If you don’t get one job offer, get another. If doors aren’t opened for you, kick them down. The only reason for failure is giving up.
I find it fascinating that the colleges are reacting as if they had no part in this scandal and are victims. After all, they created a process of admissions that is impossibly complex and shrouded in secrecy, then created many "side doors" to admissions (athletics, legacy, affirmative action, etc), then allow individuals (coaches, ADs, board members) to bypass the formal process and provide golden tickets to admissions. What legitimate business or organization runs this way? It's no wonder there is corruption up and down the system.
RJM posted:One thing I’m tiring of is the “Woe is me” articles about how this affects other kids.
All through life there will be difficult challenges. Life isn’t easy. Some people just make it look easy because they don’t allow obstacles to get in their way. Losing isn’t final. Losing is a lesson.
If you don’t get into one college, get into another. If you don’t get one job offer, get another. If doors aren’t opened for you, kick them down. The only reason for failure is giving up.
I know what you're saying. Can't help but think of a HS buddy of my son's. Son of immigrants. Public school. Firmly middle class (not upper).The kid was exceptional. 36 ACT, 12 on the writing. 4.0 GPA. God knows how many AP's 15-16, with 5's on all of them. All sorts of other honors. His dream was to go to MIT, but failing that, an IVY. Was deferred. Is now in a Honors program at the local State Flagship. By no means the worst thing, as I think he is on a full ride.
Having said that, he (and his parents), have to be looking at this in disgust, and feeling the system is rigged. They're right. It is.
But you're also right. There are options.
Here come the lawsuits ...
Stanford students file class action lawsuit over college admissions scandal
https://www.cnn.com/2019/03/14...ss-action/index.html
Cal and Chapman have been identified as being involved. USC has identified six admissions applications in this year’s cycle as connected to the scheme.
Apparently the loughlin family is friends with a high official of usc, she was partying on his yacht. I wonder why lori did not bribe this guy directly and had to go to the coach.
On twitter people are joking "how bad must her grades have been" and crack jokes like "negative GPA" and "can't even write and had her application form filled out by someone else".
I don't like that either, a bit too much for me.
Btw the coach definitely needs to be fired, even if other legacies do essentially the same he betrayed his university by taking personal advantage.
Velo From The Stretch posted:I heard a coach from a local D3 put another way in a recent recruiting seminar q&a session discussing grades. To paraphrase; If he had two ballplayers that were similar, one had a 3.1, and one had a 3.6, He would take the one that had the 3.6 because he has figured out how to mange his extra-curricular activities and still get the school work done. The 3.1 has not figured out how to manage his time and would require extra work on the coaching staffs part to keep the player in school and eligible. Being a college athlete is a grind and HS GPA is an indicator of work ethic and correlates to academic success at the next level.
I doubt that's the case...but it does sound good for a seminar q & a session. It's a D3....the coach isn't concerned with scholarship money, but the 3.6 kid would likely get more academic money than the 3.1 kid (if he can even get admitted, which is a big if at some D3's)....and also making it more likely that the kid would decide to attend that school....so yes, he's probably more inclined to recruit the 3.6 kid i everything else is equal, but I highly doubt it's because he's concerned with what will happen to the kid(s) after they get to college.
Best article I have read yet with a brutally honest assessment of USC athletics:
https://www.latimes.com/sports...-20190312-story.html
And for those with no time to read, the funniest but sadly true statement in the article:
"The great irony is that at least one of the fake athletes who gained admission to USC, social media influencer Olivia Jade Giannulli, appears to be profiting from her likeness. The NCAA prohibits real college athletes from doing that."
Dominik85 posted:2020Hopeful posted:These people have no shame!! Our kids have to work their butts off for years to get into these schools the honest way and many who qualify still don't get in!
Those kids are all becoming Instagram influencers anyway
That's what makes this whole thing even more sickening...many of these kids don't even want to be there and are just there for the parties, not the education. Fine if the kid got in on his/her own merits and then decided they're not going to take it seriously, but to know going into it that your kid doesn't want to be there and is not there for an education, yet you still have the gall to cheat the system so they can take someone else's place who does want/need the education is beyond reproof.
She's likely not listed on any USC "athletic" information and certainly not on a roster....so it's highly unlikely the NCAA even knows or cares that she exists. This scandal isn't an NCAA issue...the kids involved weren't athletes....other than the fact that that's how they managed to get admitted. You can bet that starting today....EVERY school will have system to follow up on whether or not applications are from "real athletes"
Backstop22 posted:Best article I have read yet with a brutally honest assessment of USC athletics:
https://www.latimes.com/sports...-20190312-story.html
And for those with no time to read, the funniest but sadly true statement in the article:
"The great irony is that at least one of the fake athletes who gained admission to USC, social media influencer Olivia Jade Giannulli, appears to be profiting from her likeness. The NCAA prohibits real college athletes from doing that."
So Bob Smith, the hypothetical 3rd string catcher on the worst D1 baseball team in the country can't start a summer lawn service called "Bob Smith's Lawn Service"? That's a head-scratcher.
12.4.4 Self-Employment. [A] A student-athlete may establish his or her own business, provided the student-
athlete’s name, photograph, appearance or athletics reputation are not used to promote the business.
Buckeye 2015 posted:She's likely not listed on any USC "athletic" information and certainly not on a roster....so it's highly unlikely the NCAA even knows or cares that she exists. This scandal isn't an NCAA issue...the kids involved weren't athletes....other than the fact that that's how they managed to get admitted. You can bet that starting today....EVERY school will have system to follow up on whether or not applications are from "real athletes"
Since the story broke USC has identified six applicants in this year’s admission cycle connected to the scheme.
It all seems so hard to believe a single coach could get an "athlete" through admissions and the kid never show up for the team and nobody would notice. USC had an athletic department administrator nabbed (I guess $1.3 million definitely got her noticed and indicted). But there are bound to be others who noticed and what happened? None blew the whistle, asked about it? It seems at least in baseball, from what we saw the names of potential recruits are known by all of the coaches and they track them through admissions.
And then there are all of the staged photos attempting to show the kid is an athlete. Who could not scrutinize those? Loved the story the ringleader admitted where he challenged the dad's attempt to show his kid as a water polo player in action. Turns out the kid was standing in the short end of the pool! At least know a little something about the sport you are faking about!
Since this story is breaking out of Boston here’s a page with links to every article ...
Backstop22 posted:It all seems so hard to believe a single coach could get an "athlete" through admissions and the kid never show up for the team and nobody would notice. USC had an athletic department administrator nabbed (I guess $1.3 million definitely got her noticed and indicted). But there are bound to be others who noticed and what happened? None blew the whistle, asked about it? It seems at least in baseball, from what we saw the names of potential recruits are known by all of the coaches and they track them through admissions.
And then there are all of the staged photos attempting to show the kid is an athlete. Who could not scrutinize those? Loved the story the ringleader admitted where he challenged the dad's attempt to show his kid as a water polo player in action. Turns out the kid was standing in the short end of the pool! At least know a little something about the sport you are faking about!
Loughlin’s kid had already been flagged by someone at USC. Her admission was already under internal investigation.
Backstop22 posted:It all seems so hard to believe a single coach could get an "athlete" through admissions and the kid never show up for the team and nobody would notice. USC had an athletic department administrator nabbed (I guess $1.3 million definitely got her noticed and indicted). But there are bound to be others who noticed and what happened? None blew the whistle, asked about it? It seems at least in baseball, from what we saw the names of potential recruits are known by all of the coaches and they track them through admissions.
And then there are all of the staged photos attempting to show the kid is an athlete. Who could not scrutinize those? Loved the story the ringleader admitted where he challenged the dad's attempt to show his kid as a water polo player in action. Turns out the kid was standing in the short end of the pool! At least know a little something about the sport you are faking about!
There's never been any mention of scholarship money involved for any of these "athletes" so I think that probably helps keep them from being noticed. If for example this had happened at my son's school with a walk on baseball player, it's entirely possible he'd have never known about it. The kid never shows up for practice....he's no different than any other student on a campus that size. Other students likely wouldn't know why/how they got admitted.
RJM posted:Backstop22 posted:It all seems so hard to believe a single coach could get an "athlete" through admissions and the kid never show up for the team and nobody would notice. USC had an athletic department administrator nabbed (I guess $1.3 million definitely got her noticed and indicted). But there are bound to be others who noticed and what happened? None blew the whistle, asked about it? It seems at least in baseball, from what we saw the names of potential recruits are known by all of the coaches and they track them through admissions.
And then there are all of the staged photos attempting to show the kid is an athlete. Who could not scrutinize those? Loved the story the ringleader admitted where he challenged the dad's attempt to show his kid as a water polo player in action. Turns out the kid was standing in the short end of the pool! At least know a little something about the sport you are faking about!
Loughlin’s kid had already been flagged by someone at USC. Her admission was already under internal investigation.
Interesting - there is also a report that Loughlin's kid was on a USC Trustee's yacht (on Spring Break with her friend and fellow USC student, Trustee's daughter) when mom was arraigned. Man, bad timing!! If under investigation, someone should have told USC Trustee - hey, might not want to let the suspected student join your family on this trip.
PS is USC that hard to get into? Always assumed it was a fine institution but yikes $250k bribe for each daughter?
If it cost even $100,000 under the table to get your Johnny a non-scholarship slot on his preferred College BB Team, would you pony up?
I will assume most on HSBaseball Web wouldn't touch it.
It's not a matter of the amount, it's a matter of integrity.
All this situation shows is a lack of integrity of parents and those who feel they aren't earning enough on their jobs.
A crime is a crime. I hope some do the time!
BTW, if you would pony up your funds for an shot, don't disclose here. Who know what HC's are trolling. ( we wish they were).
Let's get back to baseball.
Lori Loughhlin fired by Hallmark Channel
This is the more acceptable way to get your kid into school.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cHnkHU7MuaA
Now my niece is pissed at my brother.... all he had to do was pretend she could row a boat or play tennis and pony up $250,000 and she could have flunked out of a more prestigious school.
NewUmpire posted:This is the more acceptable way to get your kid into school.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cHnkHU7MuaA
Classic.
At least some of the kids knew what was going on:
Somehow my alma mater escaped involvement in this scandal. Maybe because it is known as the "The place fun goes to die."
Rob, that prompts the question "Did you do your part to change that reputation when you were a student??"
Rick, he DID! He’ll probably act all modest about it but when my ‘19 went to their camp last fall his host told him they had established an annual student award, the R-K Oh! Award, an empty, crumpled can of Schlitz, now handed out to a particularly enthusiastic first year student.
Rob Kremer posted:Somehow my alma mater escaped involvement in this scandal. Maybe because it is known as the "The place fun goes to die."
Reminds me of the day I went to one of my son’s away games at a very highly regarded D3 HA. I had to park away from the ball park and walk through most of the campus. As I arrived at the park it occurred to me… every student that I passed along the way looked completely miserable and beaten down. Then I looked in the stands and the only students at the game appeared to be a couple of girlfriends with the faces buried in their MacBooks. I’m sure most of those kids are getting a great education, and will have impressive careers, but to an outsider it sure looked like they were missing the fun part of college.
My father went to a Big Ten to play football. After getting injured he transferred as a generational legacy to a HA NESCAC and played baseball. He advised me not to let college get in the way of my education. Then again, he was an alcoholic, arrested adolescent, frat boy for life. In his day even HA’s had frat houses.
I think many of the HA's still have frat houses, I know there are some in the Ivies. A lot of tradition in some of those houses and brothers can make for good business connections.
9and7dad posted:I think many of the HA's still have frat houses, I know there are some in the Ivies. A lot of tradition in some of those houses and brothers can make for good business connections.
I belonged to a frat. But I didn’t spend my life thinking only of myself and getting drunk. Some of my father’s best alcoholic friends are from his frat.
Let me correct myself. He wasn’t an alcoholic. If you go to a prestigious college, are a member of a country club and play golf you’re not an alcoholic. You’re a sport.
Showing that corruption in getting a kid into Harvard wasn't confined to the ring which was busted, this dad BOUGHT the fencing coach's home for TWICE it's fair market value, only to sell it a few years later for a 350k loss.
https://www.bostonglobe.com/me...eY1xfB1GK/story.html
What's very galling (to me) is not only the personal corruption of the family and coach, but the way the deal was constructed, upon the sale for a loss -because it was a rental - a tax loss resulted, so we all contributed (so to speak).
And, I didn't even get a stinking t-shirt.
Goosegg posted:Showing that corruption in getting a kid into Harvard wasn't confined to the ring which was busted, this dad BOUGHT the fencing coach's home for TWICE it's fair market value, only to sell it a few years later for a 350k loss.
https://www.bostonglobe.com/me...eY1xfB1GK/story.html
What's very galling (to me) is not only the personal corruption of the family and coach, but the way the deal was constructed, upon the sale for a loss -because it was a rental - a tax loss resulted, so we all contributed (so to speak).
And, I didn't even get a stinking t-shirt.
Another crazy story about corruption. This one hits close to home, as we have some friends at St. Albans, and our daughter took fencing lessons at the academy they mentioned. Will be interesting to see what the investigation uncovers.