Manny Ramirez is the WORST FIELDING OUTFIELDER IN THE HISTORY OF BASEBALL.
He has to hit 40 hrs and drive in 150 to make up for the runs he allows.
He's been a butcher in Chicago for the past few days.
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BEEN
On certain days he is the worst you can get and yet in the same game he will make a great catch to save the game
I see him everyday and there are days is as good as anyone in the game
BUT he does not get paid for his fielding
On certain days he is the worst you can get and yet in the same game he will make a great catch to save the game
I see him everyday and there are days is as good as anyone in the game
BUT he does not get paid for his fielding
I saw Manny play as an 18 year old for Mel Zitter's Brooklyn Youth Service team. He had the whole package (offense and defense) back then.
What was Manny doing when he "snuck" into the door at Fenway last week? 
quote:Originally posted by stangsbaseball24:
What was Manny doing when he "snuck" into the door at Fenway last week?
He does this almost every pitching change. I went to a series a few weeks ago and he went into the Monster during every change.
Dunno what he is doing, though.
Sometimes I think it is the "air-headedness" that bugs people the most about Manny. I have seen worse such as Jose Canseco. I would love to have him back in Cleveland however, warts and all.
He is a prodigious hitter who never, never has an off year. I'll never forget his first game for the Indians when he was 20 years old against the Yankees, and his whole family was there to watch him. All he did was hit two home runs and a double in his three at bats that night. The double missed being a home run by one foot below the top of the fence. He has never stopped hitting. Obviously, if Ortiz could play outfield, Manny would be the DH. He does posses a fairly strong and accurate arm however.
He is a prodigious hitter who never, never has an off year. I'll never forget his first game for the Indians when he was 20 years old against the Yankees, and his whole family was there to watch him. All he did was hit two home runs and a double in his three at bats that night. The double missed being a home run by one foot below the top of the fence. He has never stopped hitting. Obviously, if Ortiz could play outfield, Manny would be the DH. He does posses a fairly strong and accurate arm however.
quote:Originally posted by stangsbaseball24:
What was Manny doing when he "snuck" into the door at Fenway last week?
On Baseball Tonight a few nights ago they said Manny told them he was relieving himself in a cup...... TMI
If the sox didn't already have the most awesome DH ( who can't field either) then Manny would make a good DH.
Admittedly, Manny plays a few outs into hits. The Zone Rating column illustrates that fact. Beyond that, Manny's defensive stats compare favorably to the ChiSox outfielders. Combining these stats with his offensive stats, Manny is clearly a more valuable player.
Hoping that these columns line up nicely. They rarely do. Dashes added to line the columns.
Manny:
GP INN - TC - PO A E DP FPCT RF --- ZR
91 739. 163 150 12 1 0 .994 - 1.97 - .759
Podsednik:
GP INN - TC PO A E DP FPCT - RF -- ZR
78 660. 171 168 2 1 1 .994 -- 2.32 .896
Dye:
GP INN --- TC - PO A E DP -FPCT RF -- ZR
81 711.2 - 151 142 4 5 1 - .967 1.85 .874
Rowand:
GP INN - TC - PO A E DP FPCT - RF - ZR
91 798. 216 211 2 3 0 .986 - 2.40 .927
Hoping that these columns line up nicely. They rarely do. Dashes added to line the columns.
Manny:
GP INN - TC - PO A E DP FPCT RF --- ZR
91 739. 163 150 12 1 0 .994 - 1.97 - .759
Podsednik:
GP INN - TC PO A E DP FPCT - RF -- ZR
78 660. 171 168 2 1 1 .994 -- 2.32 .896
Dye:
GP INN --- TC - PO A E DP -FPCT RF -- ZR
81 711.2 - 151 142 4 5 1 - .967 1.85 .874
Rowand:
GP INN - TC - PO A E DP FPCT - RF - ZR
91 798. 216 211 2 3 0 .986 - 2.40 .927
unfortunately stats don't represent the intangibles.... Like throwing to the wrong base or cutting off the throw from the centerfielder 
as stated. playing outs into hits... playing singles into doubles.... and just generally looking silly out there...
as stated. playing outs into hits... playing singles into doubles.... and just generally looking silly out there...
I would be happy to sacrifice some defense to have his bat in the lineup
quote:I would be happy to sacrifice some defense to have his bat in the lineup
TRhit
Me Too.
So he is not the best defensive left fielder. Would you trade Juan Pierre for Manny straight up? I mean, he is much better defensively and gets hits and steals bases. Who would you put there instead on Manny on a straight up trade. I cannot think of anybody. I don't understand the need to find a reason to slam somebody for an aspect of his game. I could rave about someone elses defense, but would that make them a better player over all. The bottom line is that with the offense that he brings covers a few boo boos in the field.
BigHit
There is another aspect in all of this--ESPN seems to only show his bad plays, never his good plays--being in the Boston Region I get to see all his games and I am here to tell you that he is not all that bad in the field
There is another aspect in all of this--ESPN seems to only show his bad plays, never his good plays--being in the Boston Region I get to see all his games and I am here to tell you that he is not all that bad in the field
Perception is reality. ESPN tries to get mileage any way they can. So if they turn a star into a buffoon, it gets them ratings and creates a personna for the player. As far as Manny's weekend, every player has a couple of bad games.
quote:If the sox didn't already have the most awesome DH ( who can't field either) then Manny would make a good DH.
Since when can't Ortiz field his position, and by the way Cong what is his position??? Did you happen to watch any of the 2004 World Series when he was scooping and starting double plays as they swept the Cards with him in the field? Ability is subjective and relative, but in my opinion your statement is completely incorrect.
Living in one of the harshest, most critical area of the country of fans against any sport the general consensus is leave Manny alone....his offense brings much more to the table...he is invaluable with his hitting...Ortiz has done a very decent job at first when required to and is vastly beloved by the fans here...
quote:Originally posted by Dad04:
Since when can't Ortiz field his position, and by the way Cong what is his position??? Did you happen to watch any of the 2004 World Series when he was scooping and starting double plays as they swept the Cards with him in the field? Ability is subjective and relative, but in my opinion your statement is completely incorrect.
Up to this season, Ortiz has played 211 games at 1B and 466 as a DH in the Bigs. I would say that managers and coaches far more suited to the decision that us have decided he is not that great of a fielder.
IMO, He played 1B in StL because they wanted to keep his bat in the lineup.
Opinions are all we really have. We can agree to disagree on our opinions.
We will agree to disagree but I doubt the Red Sox would be world series champions without all of the horrible fielding they have.
I don't think there are ever any perfectly right or wrong answers in baseball. Some people value certain skills differently. I have seen Manny play close-up for many years in Cleveland and he was a key component to sending them to their first World Series appearances in over 40 years. He helped Boston win their first title in over 80 years. His last at bat as an Indian was a homerun and the fans gave him a standing ovation even though they knew he was going to Boston. We would love to have him back but are unfortunately too poor to have kept him 
It would be interesting if a defense-offense stat could be developed (though I don't think it could be; too many subjective variables, too many assumptions), answering the question 'are the miscues in the field outweighed by the offensive production?'.
How many errors or bad plays end up costing a run vs how many runs did that fielder drive in. Did the error allow The Opposing Stud to get to the plate in a crucial situation later?
Fans do tend to remember the bad/costly play more than the routine or even good ---- they also tend to remember the go-ahead home run a lot faster than the times they left men on base.
We had an CF in hs who would hold the ball, trying to figure out the play while two runs scored. He'd then hit a solo hr and the coach would go on about what a great game he had. Um...NO!
How many errors or bad plays end up costing a run vs how many runs did that fielder drive in. Did the error allow The Opposing Stud to get to the plate in a crucial situation later?
Fans do tend to remember the bad/costly play more than the routine or even good ---- they also tend to remember the go-ahead home run a lot faster than the times they left men on base.
We had an CF in hs who would hold the ball, trying to figure out the play while two runs scored. He'd then hit a solo hr and the coach would go on about what a great game he had. Um...NO!
If I am not mistaken, Moneyball told of precisely that kind of defensive stat being developed by the A's.
They tabulated every ball hit to different points in the field, along with the velocity and trajectory, and figured out what the average fielder in the majors did with each type of hit.
Then they could compare the performance of individual fielders to the average. It was a much better measure of fielding ability than the subjective "errors" measure.
They found that on average, defensive prowess was overpriced by the major league market, and it was cheaper to "buy" more hitting ability than to "buy" defensive ability.
So let's say the objecive over the year is to have a 125 run difference between what your offense produces and what your defense allows. (I'm just pulling numbers out of the hat here, but as I recall they had a specific run differential in mind that they predicted would result in a 90 win season.)
The difference between a Manny Ramirez in left field and the average fielder might be, say, 12 runs during the year.
Manny might let in those 12 runs, but compared ot the average left fielder he'll produce far more than those 12 runs by productive at bats - so they are better off by their analysis.
The lesson from Moneyball was not that defense is unimportant - just that it is overpriced in the market vs. offensive skill.
And the A's did, in my opinion, come up with some innovative ways of measuring defensive ability AND offensive output that give a more accurate picture of actual value of a player to a team.
They tabulated every ball hit to different points in the field, along with the velocity and trajectory, and figured out what the average fielder in the majors did with each type of hit.
Then they could compare the performance of individual fielders to the average. It was a much better measure of fielding ability than the subjective "errors" measure.
They found that on average, defensive prowess was overpriced by the major league market, and it was cheaper to "buy" more hitting ability than to "buy" defensive ability.
So let's say the objecive over the year is to have a 125 run difference between what your offense produces and what your defense allows. (I'm just pulling numbers out of the hat here, but as I recall they had a specific run differential in mind that they predicted would result in a 90 win season.)
The difference between a Manny Ramirez in left field and the average fielder might be, say, 12 runs during the year.
Manny might let in those 12 runs, but compared ot the average left fielder he'll produce far more than those 12 runs by productive at bats - so they are better off by their analysis.
The lesson from Moneyball was not that defense is unimportant - just that it is overpriced in the market vs. offensive skill.
And the A's did, in my opinion, come up with some innovative ways of measuring defensive ability AND offensive output that give a more accurate picture of actual value of a player to a team.
Manny plays the Green Monster quite well. Given that he plays 81 games in front of it, that is the main concern in Boston.
I also saw Manny playing in HS at George Washgington HS in NY. My son was part of that team ranked by USA today 3rd in the country in 1990, senior year of my son and junior year for Manny. I tell you that Manny was a 5 tool player. How many of you know that Manny ran under 4 seconds from home to first the year he was signed?. He also was the center fielder in this great HS team. Manny have been the player that the media says he is, he doesn't hustle, he doesn't worry about nothing, he is manny. How many of you know that when the media said that he was a hot dog because he didn't want to give interviews, what realy happened was that he was a very shy person with very poor english skills? Now that he has become a television claw, and have done some interviews, they are giving him some attention, and may be one of this years he will be elected league MVP, award that probably he had deserved more than one time in his carrear. Ask his teammates, and you are going to hear about a very different Manny Ramirez, that the one that you read in the papers and see at TV. Right know he is not the best defensive player of the big leagues, but I think that he is an average one, he sacrified his running and defensive skill to become a bigger and powerfull hitter, if you think that was a mistake, let me tell you that the millions are in hitting home runs, rbi's etc. and he is one of the best paid players in baseball.
This year he has only made one error, but how many balls has he let drop that could have been caught by any other player in the game. It helps to play in Fenway because he has less area to cover.
He should have had 2 errors in the Chicago White Sox series.
As I've said earlier, he definitely can hit, but he s...s as a fielder.
As I've said earlier, he definitely can hit, but he s...s as a fielder.
So what? The white sox would have a much better chance of winning it all with Manny in left than they do with Posednick.
I'd Plunk him! Then when he got to 1st, I'd hit him again! Then when Damon came up I'd do the same to him!
Sorry... I can only hope it's another 86 years
Sorry... I can only hope it's another 86 years
Holden...Not sure which team you're watching but it isn't the White Sox.
They got rid of Carlos Lee and his 35 hrs and 120 rbis for Podsednik.
...and Carlos Lee could catch a flyball or two.
No criticism of Manny and his hitting prowess...it is just his atrocious fielding that is so "glaring" every time I see him play.
They got rid of Carlos Lee and his 35 hrs and 120 rbis for Podsednik.
...and Carlos Lee could catch a flyball or two.
No criticism of Manny and his hitting prowess...it is just his atrocious fielding that is so "glaring" every time I see him play.
Great article about Manny today in the Providence Journal. Talks about Manny being Manny....first alludes to his "suspect" play in LF and then goes on to celebrate his offensive talent.
Most teams run on Manny. He is the leader in outfield assists.....but he gets more chances.
The best outfielders, with the stongest arms
are leaders in that category, right?
This stat has a sub plot....
Most teams run on Manny. He is the leader in outfield assists.....but he gets more chances.
The best outfielders, with the stongest arms
are leaders in that category, right?
This stat has a sub plot....
When Manny was in Cleveland I thought that he was a hot dog and not a good right fielder though he had a pretty strong arm. Since he joined the Sox and I've seen him every day I have come to respect him for a number of things. First, he may well be the hardest worker in the game. See what the other players say about his work ethic. Secondly, nothing bothers him. Strike him out three times, he'll kill you the fourth at bat. The ability to maintain your belief level in the face of pressure situations or failures is critical not only to him but to his teammates.
BTW, my favorite Manny moment was the day he was playing left with a bottle of water in his back pocket - classic.
BTW, my favorite Manny moment was the day he was playing left with a bottle of water in his back pocket - classic.
I recognize that Posednick has helped them get to where they are today. But Lee (or Manny) would be better in getting them to where they want to go.
quote:BTW, my favorite Manny moment was the day he was playing left with a bottle of water in his back pocket - classic.
Did you like that better than him throwing a pop fly ball in the stands with a runner on and one out?
How about when he jogged down to second on a pop fly with one out and got doubled off first?
He sure is a Manny.
Throwing the ball in the stands with less than two outs is actually in the Red Sox playbook. Trot Nixon has done it as well.
The best thing that Manny does is his patented finger point. I love that thing!!
The media started a campaing about manny disconform in Boston. Apparently is very large the amount of people that can not swallow that Manny is one of the best hitter of all time in baseball. Year after year, he kill the American league pitching without giving signal of be bother for the negativism and bad intentional comments.
quote:Originally posted by stangsbaseball24:
The best thing that Manny does is his patented finger point. I love that thing!!
Stang - maybe - but I would have to go with the way he signs his multi-million dollar checks every year.
That is pretty impressive too.
As a Rangers fan, they should have traded for ManRam because ARod was going to move anyway. Look what the Rangers got for ARod, Alfonso freakin Soriano! Now Soriano is being shopped, possibly being a Met. They didn't get anywhere NEAR what they could or should have got for him.
How important has Manny Ramirez been to the Sox? Consider: In the 63 games the Sox have won, Ramirez is batting .360 with 25 HRs and 76 RBIs. In the club's 47 losses he's hitting .196 with six homers and 27 RBIs.
Globe Article
Globe Article
Manny Ramirez isn't as bad as people think. True, he goes to the Green Monster to relieve himself, but he has many more assists than people think. Nobody is saying he is so good, and true the balls hit the wall and come right back to him, but he gets the ball in for out.
BEENTHEREIL,
So,just how much did you lose on the Sox/Sox series last weekend in ChiTown? Seriously, who the heck are you to be calling a major league outfielder who is a perreninal All-Star and MVP candidate, and absolutely, one of the top 3 hitters in the game over the past 8 years the worst outfielder in baseball history? Would you even know where to stand in the outfield? Or which hand to put the glove on? Your statement reminds me of the old saying: "It is better to remain silent and only thought to be a fool, than to open one's mouth and remove all doubt" Or in this case, keep your fingers off of the keyboard!
So,just how much did you lose on the Sox/Sox series last weekend in ChiTown? Seriously, who the heck are you to be calling a major league outfielder who is a perreninal All-Star and MVP candidate, and absolutely, one of the top 3 hitters in the game over the past 8 years the worst outfielder in baseball history? Would you even know where to stand in the outfield? Or which hand to put the glove on? Your statement reminds me of the old saying: "It is better to remain silent and only thought to be a fool, than to open one's mouth and remove all doubt" Or in this case, keep your fingers off of the keyboard!
3 goals...It is more important to read the earlier posts than to start responding without knowing what was written before.
NO ONE SAID ANYTHING ABOUT HIS OFFENSIVE SKILLS.
It is his defensive "lack of skill" that I have a problem with.
You surely must be one of 3 people in America that live in New Hampshire. How are the Green Mountain boys? Still around?
Happy to compare my experience in baseball and education and life (to yours) any day of the week.
NO ONE SAID ANYTHING ABOUT HIS OFFENSIVE SKILLS.
It is his defensive "lack of skill" that I have a problem with.
You surely must be one of 3 people in America that live in New Hampshire. How are the Green Mountain boys? Still around?
Happy to compare my experience in baseball and education and life (to yours) any day of the week.