McCarver - again

I was at the game and haven't seen any replays yet. But from how it looked in person, unless they showed a replay from directly above that included a portion of the fair/foul line for reference, it would be really hard to call. It looked extemely close either way.

When Halladay bunted the ball, it first went straight down and hit the ground in foul territory. That is when McCarver said: "That's a foul ball!" (This is during the slo mo replay). The ball then bounced near the plate and Posey picked it up and Jeff Nelson pointed it fair. You're right - it was very close, but McCarver once again demonstrated his lack of rules knowledge - on a rule that is of particular importance to catchers.

I do think it was foul. But, there isn't a conclusive replay yet to show that. And, it happened so quickly, there was no way PU could get a view before F2 picked it up.

No IR would have helped on that unless there is an angle no one is showing to prove otherwise. And, I doubt that is the case.

Oh and I don't want, advocate, or care for IR.

From the replays in HD I saw the ball initially hit the plate and then was picked up by Posey in the dirt adjacent to the plate whuch made it a foul ball

Funny thing---no heated discussion about it on the field

I don't think anybody truly knew if it was or not except maybe Halladay. But, since R2 was safe at 3B and he still was out at 1B and went into the dugout to rest, he didn't care.

I doubt the Phillies were even going to consider arguing it based on the outcome. If they did, it wouldn't have done any good. Somebody would just go home and the call would still stand. Same for the Giants.

And, no one from the Giants could tell. Posey didn't seem to know either since he threw to 3B immediately.

quote:

Originally posted by TRhit:
From the replays in HD I saw the ball initially hit the plate and then was picked up by Posey in the dirt adjacent to the plate whuch made it a foul ball

That doesn't necessarily make the ball foul. Most of the dirt around the plate is in fair territory. That's why I suggested that a view of a portion of the fair/foul line would be helpful.

The diagonal line from the back point of the plate is the reference from which the fair/foul line shoud be drawn.

MR Umpire

Posey did what he is trained to do--make the play--don't wait for a call by the umpire--why Halladay did not run is beyond me other than a catchers instincts are different than a pitchers

Jimmy

Trust me --in every replay I saw the ball was in foul territory

quote:

Originally posted by TRhit:
MR Umpire

Posey did what he is trained to do--make the play--don't wait for a call by the umpire--why Halladay did not run is beyond me other than a catchers instincts are different than a pitchers

Jimmy

Trust me --in every replay I saw the ball was in foul territory

I know what F2's are trained to do. However, if he even thought it was a foul ball, why didn't he question it? Especially after R2 was called safe, if he got a foul call out of it, then it would have reset the situation, though I am quite sure he would not have gotten a foul call. But, it doesn't hurt to try within reason. Furthermore, if he had questioned it, it should have brought out Bochy to do 1 of 2 things: Get an explanation or keep his F2 from going too far.

I don't think anybody knows except Halladay. He is the only one standing still and in perfect position to know where the ball was.

Watching the replays the one from the front shows it was beside the plate in the dirt between the plate and the inside box line. The view from the side showed it was extremely close to the fair/foul line so I would say it was fair. Just because the ball is in the dirt beside the plate doesn't make it foul.
I was told about the "horrible" call by the PU right after it happened. The guy said that McCarver said it was foul and he is usually bang on with the rules. He didn't know my rules background so I explained that Tim is an idiot and wouldn't know a rule if it struck him in the butt. I then explained how it could possibly be fair but look foul.
Having seen the play, I lean toward fair but it is too close to call from the angles they show.

There was one replay (MLB Tonight) from a camera 1st baseline extended back up high... it clearly showed the ball behind the 1st base side back diagonal. There was no part of the ball hanging over the plate, you could see complete separation (dirt) between the ball and the plate...

It was Foul...

1. Contrary to some beliefs, most of the dirt around home plate is in foul territory. Period.

2. Halladay's bunt which hit the plate and rolled on the side of the dish, is foul. Period

3. Halladay did not run to 1b after the bunt because of a groin injury that he was trying to pitch thru (and did)

4. These MLB umpires blew the 'right' call......again. Period

5. This blown call affected the outcome of the game.


Period

quote:

Originally posted by Bear:
1. Contrary to some beliefs, most of the dirt around home plate is in foul territory. Period.

At the risk of being call a nazi again...incorrect.



The two diagonals indicated by the 12" markings are the beginning of the fair/foul lines, sometimes callet the first and third base lines. All area adjacent to the plate and on the infield side of those lines is fair(including, of course, in front of the plate). The area adjacent to and on the backstop side of those diagnols are foul.

Measure those sections of the perimeter that are fail and foul. We are not talking about the aread extending the distance of the foul lines. We are talking about the area near the plate which was involve in the play.

2. Hitting the plate and rolling to the side has any no bearing on the call. It is the position of the ball when settled or touching an object or person. I won't declare it one or the other as my view was from too far away and the only replay I saw was from an angled view.

3. Who cares...not an issue.

4. I don't know from what angle the call was made and what the umpire "saw." Doesn't matter. He called what he saw. He's either right or wrong. The game goes on.

5. Even as a disappointed Giants fan I can admit the call had no bearing on the final outcome. Period, Exclamation Point,
-30-

As Jimmy says there is far more fair territory around the plate than most people think. The replays are not conclusive but it was either fair or if foul it was by an eyelash. Live the umpire is going to have that fair more times than not and IR would have no effect on the outcome. It had no effect on the game because he was trying to sac bunt anyway so it had the desired effect.

quote:

Originally posted by Jimmy03:

quote:

Originally posted by Bear:
1. Contrary to some beliefs, most of the dirt around home plate is in foul territory. Period.

At the risk of being call a nazi again...incorrect.



The two diagonals indicated by the 12" markings are the beginning of the fair/foul lines, sometimes callet the first and third base lines. All area adjacent to the plate and on the infield side of those lines is fair(including, of course, in front of the plate). The area adjacent to and on the backstop side of those diagnols are foul.

Measure those sections of the perimeter that are fail and foul. We are not talking about the aread extending the distance of the foul lines. We are talking about the area near the plate which was involve in the play.

2. Hitting the plate and rolling to the side has any no bearing on the call. It is the position of the ball when settled or touching an object or person. I won't declare it one or the other as my view was from too far away and the only replay I saw was from an angled view.

3. Who cares...not an issue.

4. I don't know from what angle the call was made and what the umpire "saw." Doesn't matter. He called what he saw. He's either right or wrong. The game goes on.

5. Even as a disappointed Giants fan I can admit the call had no bearing on the final outcome. Period, Exclamation Point,
-30-

I'll say it again (100,000 time) a coach can watch a game and say "that manager made a mistake" a player can watch a game and say "that player made a mistake" what i've learned on this thread is that it is very hard for umpires to watch a game and say "he missed the call" it's like it's an indictment on your profession or something to say "man, you know what he just blew it there... was in good position, he just missed it"

It's too bad things are that way....

quote:

Originally posted by bsballfan:
I'll say it again (100,000 time) a coach can watch a game and say "that manager made a mistake" a player can watch a game and say "that player made a mistake" what i've learned on this thread is that it is very hard for umpires to watch a game and say "he missed the call" it's like it's an indictment on your profession or something to say "man, you know what he just blew it there... was in good position, he just missed it"

It's too bad things are that way....

What a crock! It has been done numerous times. On this site and on many others. In fact, in this thread alone, I clearly said I think it was foul. Read THIS thread itself.

It was a tough call b/c of F2. There are no replay angles to CONCLUSIVELY say it was fair/foul. There are some reference points to indicate it but still not conclusive.

It is not a mark against anyone. But, as you have shown in this thread, some read what they want and only remember very selectively what they have read. Typical umpire bashing whether it be the pros or posters on a site.

quote:

Originally posted by bsballfan:

quote:

Originally posted by Jimmy03:

quote:

Originally posted by Bear:
1. Contrary to some beliefs, most of the dirt around home plate is in foul territory. Period.

At the risk of being call a nazi again...incorrect.



The two diagonals indicated by the 12" markings are the beginning of the fair/foul lines, sometimes callet the first and third base lines. All area adjacent to the plate and on the infield side of those lines is fair(including, of course, in front of the plate). The area adjacent to and on the backstop side of those diagnols are foul.

Measure those sections of the perimeter that are fail and foul. We are not talking about the aread extending the distance of the foul lines. We are talking about the area near the plate which was involve in the play.

2. Hitting the plate and rolling to the side has any no bearing on the call. It is the position of the ball when settled or touching an object or person. I won't declare it one or the other as my view was from too far away and the only replay I saw was from an angled view.

3. Who cares...not an issue.

4. I don't know from what angle the call was made and what the umpire "saw." Doesn't matter. He called what he saw. He's either right or wrong. The game goes on.

5. Even as a disappointed Giants fan I can admit the call had no bearing on the final outcome. Period, Exclamation Point,
-30-

I'll say it again (100,000 time) a coach can watch a game and say "that manager made a mistake" a player can watch a game and say "that player made a mistake" what i've learned on this thread is that it is very hard for umpires to watch a game and say "he missed the call" it's like it's an indictment on your profession or something to say "man, you know what he just blew it there... was in good position, he just missed it"

It's too bad things are that way....

Good Grief. You simply cannot understand that discussing WHY a mistake was made IS NOT an excuse for the mistake. The umpires here have identified and discussed more umpire mistakes, both at the pro and amateur levels, than the coaches, fans and players combined.

He!!, I'll even be the first to jump on U1 tonight for his terrible timing and being in the process of punching out a B/R while the ball was on the ground and rolling further into foul territory. Did you see that one?

What more do you want? Did the PU blow the bunt call in game 5? I don't know. I was at the game and too far away to see it very well and I haven't yet seen a reply with a good angle. But everyone else thinks he did, so I'll go with the flow...he screwed up.

Need more? Guccione screwed up big time in the ALD series.

What else, just name it.

You see the difference on this part of the site is that we are much more interested in seeing how to prevent these errors than to sit on the coach and b!tch about them. We look for WHY the mistake was made and we debate and discuss that. This is not an exercise in excusing the mistake, but rather an exercise that helps make umpires better. I would think you would want that.


If you can't understand what we do, then just ignore us.

quote:

Originally posted by bsballfan:
I'll say it again (100,000 time) a coach can watch a game and say "that manager made a mistake" a player can watch a game and say "that player made a mistake" what i've learned on this thread is that it is very hard for umpires to watch a game and say "he missed the call" it's like it's an indictment on your profession or something to say "man, you know what he just blew it there... was in good position, he just missed it"

This is easy: Umpires are never wrong. /sarcasm

The World Series is only a few days away and I haven't seen this posted in any thread yet, so let me beat everyone to the punch.

Buck may not know the rules, but McCarver has to be the world's most clueless catcher in the history of baseball to get a broadcasting gig. I'm sick and tired of having to watch the WS on mute.

This year, I'm taking a cruise to Europe with my wife of 20 years during the WS. I'll see Wednesday's game and then will have to read about the rest in Italian.

quote:

Originally posted by JMoff:
The World Series is only a few days away and I haven't seen this posted in any thread yet, so let me beat everyone to the punch.

Buck may not know the rules, but McCarver has to be the world's most clueless catcher in the history of baseball to get a broadcasting gig. I'm sick and tired of having to watch the WS on mute.

This year, I'm taking a cruise to Europe with my wife of 20 years during the WS. I'll see Wednesday's game and then will have to read about the rest in Italian.

He complained last night that 1BU made a fair/foul call near the first base bag. He said "that is the HPU's call, until it passes first base"
MLB umpires use the dirt cutout around the bases. Past the cut-out is the base umpires call.
Tim....STFU.

COP UMP

Go back and see the replays and McCarvers voice---he corrected the fair/foul call but did question why the first base ump made the call when the standard procedure is for the HP ump to make that call.

quote:

Originally posted by TRhit:
COP UMP

Go back and see the replays and McCarvers voice---he corrected the fair/foul call but did question why the first base ump made the call when the standard procedure is for the HP ump to make that call.

And, if he knew what he was questioning, he wouldn't question it. Cop Ump explained why U1 made the call. The ball was beyond the cutout. That is the defining line which many (maybe most or all) MLB crews (and I do too when the field has a cutout) use to determine whose responsibility it is. The base means nothing when coming to whose responsible for fair/foul. It is the cutout.

quote:

Originally posted by TRhit:
COP UMP

Go back and see the replays and McCarvers voice---he corrected the fair/foul call but did question why the first base ump made the call when the standard procedure is for the HP ump to make that call.

In MLB it is not "standard procedure" for the plate ump to make that call.

Another swing and a miss by McCarver.

quote:

Originally posted by TRhit:
COP UMP

Go back and see the replays and McCarvers voice---he corrected the fair/foul call but did question why the first base ump made the call when the standard procedure is for the HP ump to make that call.

I'm always curious how these guys can say that on Nat. TV. Most people then think the Umpires are incompitant. When really it is the play by play and colormen who are ignorant.
McCarver was a catcher, not an Umpire. I would love to have a retired Umpire in the booth with these guys. Especially during the post season. How bout Steve Palermo?

quote:

Originally posted by Cop Ump:

quote:

Originally posted by TRhit:
COP UMP

Go back and see the replays and McCarvers voice---he corrected the fair/foul call but did question why the first base ump made the call when the standard procedure is for the HP ump to make that call.

I'm always curious how these guys can say that on Nat. TV. Most people then think the Umpires are incompitant. When really it is the play by play and colormen who are ignorant.
McCarver was a catcher, not an Umpire. I would love to have a retired Umpire in the booth with these guys. Especially during the post season. How bout Steve Palermo?

I believe Palermo is still an evaluator for MLB. He wouldn't do it.

Do the umps have a sign that means, "My view is obstructed; You make the call" on the ground ball up the line. You have some pretty big firstbasemen to try to look around on the close ones.

quote:

Originally posted by trojan-skipper:
Do the umps have a sign that means, "My view is obstructed; You make the call" on the ground ball up the line. You have some pretty big firstbasemen to try to look around on the close ones.

Eye contact.

McCarver had another gem last night. Buck commented that the pitcher (I forget who it was) was close to "double setting" which would be a balk. Tim said: "As long as he does it every time, it's ok because it's his natural motion."

Buck was clueless as well - he was ignoring the pitcher's leg moving when the hands paused. It was not a double set.

quote:

Originally posted by dash_riprock:
McCarver had another gem last night. Buck commented that the pitcher (I forget who it was) was close to "double setting" which would be a balk. Tim said: "As long as he does it every time, it's ok because it's his natural motion."

Buck was clueless as well - he was ignoring the pitcher's leg moving when the hands paused. It was not a double set.

The pitcher was Mark Lowe. And, I agree. Not even close to a balk. Buck and McCarver compliment each other well. One makes a ridiculous statement. Then, the other corrects him with a ridiculous statement.

That is one thing I like about the Braves commentators. A lot of times they will admit to not understanding the call or will make a statement. But, they have others who research it and they correct themselves when they find out they were wrong.

I wonder does Buck and McCarver these same people at all. Or, do they have them and just aren't using them or ignoring them?

quote:

Originally posted by trojan-skipper:
Do the umps have a sign that means, "My view is obstructed; You make the call" on the ground ball up the line. You have some pretty big firstbasemen to try to look around on the close ones.

Pro umpires' feet are not set in concrete. The first priority is to adjust and get your own call. Failing that, a glance to your partner.

But, too many glances will get you a reputation of not working to get your calls.