So I see that PG is now including Zepp metrics from its showcases. My understanding is that all players use the same bat to make the metrics consistent for apples to apples comparisons.
What about with the old exit speed off the tee? Do players use their own bat? Metal? Wood? Seems to me you can have different readings from the same user with different bats. Are the exit speed readings between players comparable?
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I know what they do. But you can get different measurements between wood and metal and conceivably between different metal bats. So if there is not standard, it is difficult to compare.
Not to mention that with the Zepp testing a player is forced to use a bat model and bat length that he is not normally swinging, which would also effect the numbers. Correct?
PBR only measures exit velocity off a tee and I know of players that have brought old BESR bats for that portion. That needs to be eliminated.
Originally Posted by NYdad2017:
Not to mention that with the Zepp testing a player is forced to use a bat model and bat length that he is not normally swinging, which would also effect the numbers. Correct?
Sounds like a simple matter to allow a player to use whatever bat they want for one “set” of swings and a “standard” bat for another, then show both to let any observer come to any conclusions they want to.
PBR only measures exit velocity off a tee and I know of players that have brought old BESR bats for that portion. That needs to be eliminated.
Again, sounds like two different sets of swings with whatever bat they want for one and a “standard” bat for the other would resolve most issues.
Have to display my iggerince. I’m not familiar with “PBR. Is that Prep Baseball Report? If it is, from what I can tell they’re basically a 20 state organization at this point in time where PG is national.
Agree with opinion using your own bat vs a different bat,
some are top heavy, thick handle vs thin, etc.
Seems like an advantage if you happen to use the tester's choice brand.
Think a real measure is what bat a player uses in a game, otherwise not really your bat speed.
Personal experience:
Son was 3-5 miles faster with his own bat (wood).
Never saw anyone use BESR for testing but was not looking,
we sold all son's old BESR bats to a dad down south when bat rules changed.
Originally Posted by NYdad2017:
Not to mention that with the Zepp testing a player is forced to use a bat model and bat length that he is not normally swinging, which would also effect the numbers. Correct?
Sounds like a simple matter to allow a player to use whatever bat they want for one “set” of swings and a “standard” bat for another, then show both to let any observer come to any conclusions they want to.
PBR only measures exit velocity off a tee and I know of players that have brought old BESR bats for that portion. That needs to be eliminated.
Again, sounds like two different sets of swings with whatever bat they want for one and a “standard” bat for the other would resolve most issues.
Have to display my iggerince. I’m not familiar with “PBR. Is that Prep Baseball Report? If it is, from what I can tell they’re basically a 20 state organization at this point in time where PG is national.
PBR is trying to be a PG in my opinion. I have noticed that their rankings will come out a day or two after PG puts theirs out. And I have seen stories released a few days after PG's. That tells me somebody is reading somebody's mail.
A scout shared with us that scouts took their own exit velocity at pre-draft events.
not unexpectedly. (wood bats, 90++ mph pitchers).
Wanted to see for himself in a true test.
Perfect Game does a difficult job well.
PBR has been fair and good to our son too, at the one event son went to, was well-run, not much standing around,
and they were at state championships scouting, do not know how it is elsewhere.
Admittedly - it's not PG. No knock there.
There is room for both.
Maybe it is like the old AVIS commercial, We're #2 and try hard.
does perfect game allow you to use your own bat. if not what sizes and models are available. I think my marucci with lizard skin is pretty comfortable for me 
.
My son just did a PG showcase. For the exit velo there were two wooden bats to choose from, a 32 or 33. The bats were set up with the Diamond Kinetics equipment.
K9 posted:My son just did a PG showcase. For the exit velo there were two wooden bats to choose from, a 32 or 33. The bats were set up with the Diamond Kinetics equipment.
are you aware which model the bats where? and if so would you please inform me .
Thanks
TheJR30 posted:does perfect game allow you to use your own bat. if not what sizes and models are available. I think my marucci with lizard skin is pretty comfortable for me
Not for exit velocity. Just BP and games.
They use wooden bats with the Diamond Kinetics (Zepp is out) module built-in. Not sure of the actual brand of bat. As stated earlier, there are two lengths--my son told me he had to use the one appropriate for his class. I think freshman and sophomores (and younger) were instructed to use the shorter bat (32" I think) and juniors and seniors were instructed to use the 33".
Exit velocity at PG showcases is measured (at this time and last few years) by Pocket Radar off of a tee--same unit for all showcase participants at that particular showcase. That's the idea anyway--not sure if they have a backup in case of malfunction. Sometimes the radar has been behind the batter (ball hit away from unit) and sometimes ball was hit at the unit. Not really sure if there is a difference. I have a Pocket Radar and it appears be be about the same regardless. Sometimes you will see exit velocity grouped with other metrics and not listed under "Pocket Radar". I'm pretty sure these are in-game exit velocities using the same gun used for measuring pitching velocity and other position velocities (NOT Pocket Radar).
I think PG does a GREAT job normalizing all statistics at their showcases. This is why their numbers are much more accurate across the country than PBR's (in my opinion). I have seen PBR events where the gun is 30 feet away from the tee and some where it is 6 feet. Positional readings are always read at the same position at all PG showcases--I have seen PBR events that vary (catching velo behind second base in some and behind catcher in others). I'm not sure if there is a difference but I like to see a standard applied at PG. I think that's called scientific method???!!!! ;-)
As I have seen stated elsewhere on this site, "mileage varies" at PBR events as they are actually franchises and I'm not sure they follow a particular national standard. I know that my son's exit velo at one event was taken during BP and at another it was taken off a tee. Same spot on profile yet can be very different results! And that's not even taking pitching velocity of BP pitcher into account!!! The static tee with a wooden bat (the SAME wooden bat) is a way better measurement standard.
ABSORBER posted:TheJR30 posted:does perfect game allow you to use your own bat. if not what sizes and models are available. I think my marucci with lizard skin is pretty comfortable for me
Not for exit velocity. Just BP and games.
They use wooden bats with the Diamond Kinetics (Zepp is out) module built-in. Not sure of the actual brand of bat. As stated earlier, there are two lengths--my son told me he had to use the one appropriate for his class. I think freshman and sophomores (and younger) were instructed to use the shorter bat (32" I think) and juniors and seniors were instructed to use the 33".
Exit velocity at PG showcases is measured (at this time and last few years) by Pocket Radar off of a tee--same unit for all showcase participants at that particular showcase. That's the idea anyway--not sure if they have a backup in case of malfunction. Sometimes the radar has been behind the batter (ball hit away from unit) and sometimes ball was hit at the unit. Not really sure if there is a difference. I have a Pocket Radar and it appears be be about the same regardless. Sometimes you will see exit velocity grouped with other metrics and not listed under "Pocket Radar". I'm pretty sure these are in-game exit velocities using the same gun used for measuring pitching velocity and other position velocities (NOT Pocket Radar).
I think PG does a GREAT job normalizing all statistics at their showcases. This is why their numbers are much more accurate across the country than PBR's (in my opinion). I have seen PBR events where the gun is 30 feet away from the tee and some where it is 6 feet. Positional readings are always read at the same position at all PG showcases--I have seen PBR events that vary (catching velo behind second base in some and behind catcher in others). I'm not sure if there is a difference but I like to see a standard applied at PG. I think that's called scientific method???!!!! ;-)
As I have seen stated elsewhere on this site, "mileage varies" at PBR events as they are actually franchises and I'm not sure they follow a particular national standard. I know that my son's exit velo at one event was taken during BP and at another it was taken off a tee. Same spot on profile yet can be very different results! And that's not even taking pitching velocity of BP pitcher into account!!! The static tee with a wooden bat (the SAME wooden bat) is a way better measurement standard.
Thanks for the helpful response. Very in depth and detailed
Not sure if this info will help anyone here, but sons exit velocity using a metal 33” off a tee is significantly higher than when he tested with a 32”.
RoadRunner posted:Not sure if this info will help anyone here, but sons exit velocity using a metal 33” off a tee is significantly higher than when he tested with a 32”.
by how much???
TheJR30 posted:RoadRunner posted:Not sure if this info will help anyone here, but sons exit velocity using a metal 33” off a tee is significantly higher than when he tested with a 32”.
by how much???
I don't remember the exact values with each bat
But I do know it was at least 5mph. He was checked at his school, same day with each bat. That's when he realized that he should be swinging the 33".
To be clear, I am not advocating for kids to randomly start swinging an inch longer bat. The player must have the strength and control to use the larger bat. The circumstance for RR son was after freshman college fall conditioning/season, he tried a 33" and never looked back. I guess he didn't realize until that point the strength he had gained.
RoadRunner posted:TheJR30 posted:RoadRunner posted:Not sure if this info will help anyone here, but sons exit velocity using a metal 33” off a tee is significantly higher than when he tested with a 32”.
by how much???
I don't remember the exact values with each bat
But I do know it was at least 5mph. He was checked at his school, same day with each bat. That's when he realized that he should be swinging the 33".
To be clear, I am not advocating for kids to randomly start swinging an inch longer bat. The player must have the strength and control to use the larger bat. The circumstance for RR son was after freshman college fall conditioning/season, he tried a 33" and never looked back. I guess he didn't realize until that point the strength he had gained.
wow thats an elite jump I know I hit the weights a lot this off season, gained 30 pounds and still use the same size bat so maybe a longer bat will result in better numbers.
Thanks for the information,
RoadRunner posted:TheJR30 posted:RoadRunner posted:Not sure if this info will help anyone here, but sons exit velocity using a metal 33” off a tee is significantly higher than when he tested with a 32”.
by how much???
I don't remember the exact values with each bat
But I do know it was at least 5mph. He was checked at his school, same day with each bat. That's when he realized that he should be swinging the 33".
To be clear, I am not advocating for kids to randomly start swinging an inch longer bat. The player must have the strength and control to use the larger bat. The circumstance for RR son was after freshman college fall conditioning/season, he tried a 33" and never looked back. I guess he didn't realize until that point the strength he had gained.
That seems really odd that the two would be so different. I would of expected his bat speed to of been less with the 33, but with the added weight that it would end up being the same exit. I was thinking it could possibly be that he is getting the ball on a better part of the sweet spot with the additional length than he was with the 32. Anyone else ideas?
Linedrive_07 posted:RoadRunner posted:TheJR30 posted:RoadRunner posted:Not sure if this info will help anyone here, but sons exit velocity using a metal 33” off a tee is significantly higher than when he tested with a 32”.
by how much???
I don't remember the exact values with each bat
But I do know it was at least 5mph. He was checked at his school, same day with each bat. That's when he realized that he should be swinging the 33".
To be clear, I am not advocating for kids to randomly start swinging an inch longer bat. The player must have the strength and control to use the larger bat. The circumstance for RR son was after freshman college fall conditioning/season, he tried a 33" and never looked back. I guess he didn't realize until that point the strength he had gained.
That seems really odd that the two would be so different. I would of expected his bat speed to of been less with the 33, but with the added weight that it would end up being the same exit. I was thinking it could possibly be that he is getting the ball on a better part of the sweet spot with the additional length than he was with the 32. Anyone else ideas?
Disclaimer: Not a Physicist! But its the simple principle that the outside of the wheel is moving faster than the inside of the wheel. Your body reaches a speed limit at some point - different for different people obviously. For example maybe swinging an extremely light bat player A can generate 90mph and player B 85. Doesn't matter how light the bat is their bodies and mechanics only allow them to swing that fast. Period. Now lets say player B is big and strong. Now picking up a 34" bat he experiences little or no decrease in velocity. True it is harder to swing but his strength allows him to still reach his bodies speed limit. Now lets say player A is a mighty might type and is overwhelmed by the 34. His swing speed now becomes 75. Player A must swing a lighter bat plain and simple. Player B can get the advantage of the longer bat. Now lets say Player A is swinging a 31 and Player B is swinging a 34. Player B's sweet spot is out three inches further. Think of the swing as a circle. If a circle has a diameter of 31.85 it has a circumference of 100. So lets say it takes an hour to travel around the circle. Then you are going 100units per hour. Now if you take the diameter out two units (one more inch of bat equals one inch on each side of the circle so two additional units of diameter) then the circumference becomes 106.28. Wow that is 6.28% faster than the previous track! so that sweet spot just one inch further out (like the example of 33 vs 32) accounts for a 6.28% increase in sweet spot speed all other things being equal. Now all other things are seldom equal but the moral of the story is you should swing the longest bat you are capable of swinging. What capable means would necessitate another long conversation. Because remember if you were swinging an 8 foot 2x4 in theory you could get the end of that 2x4 going pretty fast. but the overall time to impact is still an issue. Because most of the speed at the outside of that arch is useless pre contact time necessitating a very early start to your swing. Yes baseball physics are never simple are they! That's why I cringe every time I hear somebody say "its a simple game" its actually a very complex game.
Couple other disclaimers. I used a circumference of 100 just to show a simple percentage of speed increase. However the formula is not one of percentage but simply 3.14 units per extra unit of diameter. so if discussing a bat in one inch increments imagining the swing as a circle there would be an extra inch on the backside of the swing (think left side of a circle) and an extra inch on the contact side of the swing (think right side of the circle). Thus adding an inch to the bat really adds two inches to the diameter of the circle. Adding two inches to the diameter adds 6.28 units of speed on the circumference (pi x 2). For the truly smart people out there who will point out that the knob of the bat is NOT representative of the center of the swing I get that but lets not overwhelm! The center of the swing is in reality the point in your body that everything is rotating around. That theoretical point which is not moving. So you can probably add 8-12 inches to the bat length so find the true radius of your swing. But I will leave that to someone smarter who may want to delve into all that!!
So in conclusion lets bring this back to basics... Get big, get strong, swing big stick, hit ball hard.
2020, I agree that could be the case “IF” the player’s body has reached its max potential (hands can’t move any faster regardless of weight on them because they have no idea what is out there on the end) on swing speed with a 32” bat and able to swing the 33” just as fast. I’m not sure how big an “IF” that is though. Probably an easy test though. Could do a test from 30” up to 34” and see what happens. If I do, I will get back to you 
. A zepp to get hand speed for the 5 lengths would work. My son also swings a 32 and probably moving to 33 this Fall.
It may be useful for those going to a PG showcase to get used to the Diamond Kinetics tool first. My son tends to wiggle his bat slightly before swinging...apparently this gave bad reads so they asked him to be still before swinging...I think it threw him off a bit. His reading was a few MPH less than his PBR reading.
Has anyone attended a showcase recently and can tell me how much their exit velo was affected by having to use PG’s designated bats vs their own? We’re planning on attending our first PG showcase and this event is considered a “strength” so just trying to see if people saw a big drop off, minimal drop off, or no drop off at all? Thanks.
Curious if others think swinging a metal bat will give you higher readings then wood?
I sent my 2021 to a showcase and since I had to sign him up on the day the 2019's were showcasing he opted to use his wood bat since they required that of the 2019's. Looking at his exit number 84. I've always been curious if he would have scored much higher with his metal.
Catcher-in-the-Rye posted:Curious if others think swinging a metal bat will give you higher readings then wood?
I sent my 2021 to a showcase and since I had to sign him up on the day the 2019's were showcasing he opted to use his wood bat since they required that of the 2019's. Looking at his exit number 84. I've always been curious if he would have scored much higher with his metal.
i would think it is about 1-3 faster with bbcor than wood...
Not sure it really matters, no Coach is going to ask about your ball exit velo. I can’t think of a single kid I know who is playing college ball who was asked this information. College coaches will see the swing, see/hear the ball come off the bat. That’s all they need. Everything else is eye wash. Lots of guys who cannot hit can create great exit velo off a tee.
Thank you Phil and 22ODad.
This is not so he can report the number to a coach. Its more of a question I've been curious about building on the statement above about faster swings catching up to faster pitching for myself.
Hitting is an art as much as it is a science. I know players with mediocre bat speed who can absolutely hit 92 MPH fastballs consistently because they are able to time it up right. Hitting is as much about timing as it is bat speed and swing mechanics. That said, if you have excellent bat speed, great swing mechanics and good timing...well that is a recipe for long-term success. I watched a player who had great bat speed and is now a freshman at a mid-major D1 strike out 40 times last spring. Bat speed on paper looks great.
The lack of barrel speed will kill you at the D1 level. Can get away with it at lower levels. It's not about catching up to a straight fastball. Yes that can be timed. But what about dealing with breaking balls or even just having that extra tick or two to determine ball/strike. Or what if that fastball has movement? Yes anyone can go to a batting cage and time it up. Real game situations call for bat speed. Lots of it. Don't be fooled into thinking different. And yes coaches do pay attwntion to that. And in fairness I guess it depends what you call mediocre. For D1 88-90 would probably be considered mediocre. And yes if the guy has great hand eye coordination he can get away with that. But now you are talking about outliers.
Of all the mesurables exit velocity is one I take with a grain of salt. Over the years I've watched the numbers put up at PBR events by kids we play against and they just do not reflect results on the field. When a kid puts up numbers that better my son's by 5-8 mph or more but then in games can't out hit him as to distance traveled, time and time again game after game....
We went to a couple of showcases. The one that was indoors there were windows broken out. During outfield and infield velo portions these kids were reaching back and throwing as hard as they possibly could and it was almost dangerous. Balls everywhere. Same with hitting, you had kids swinging out of their shoes. Nothing they were doing could possibly translate over to game play.
I find it hard to believe that any college coach worth a crap could take any of the numbers from a showcase seriously, except maybe 60 times.
Amen to that, Somebaseballdad. Sure, some guys will go in an legitimately put up some good numbers, but this is one measurable that can be “cheated” with poor mechanics and swinging out of your shoes.
SomeBaseballDad posted:
...I find it hard to believe that any college coach worth a crap could take any of the numbers from a showcase seriously, except maybe 60 times.
Agreed. Son said that every coach brought up 60 time in their discussions with him, no one ever talked about any other metric.
