Mechanical question???

Yup,I agree, that pitcher has great timing!

The proper timing for beginning rotation varies from pitcher to pitcher. Pitchers who counter rotate start rotating their shoulders a bit sooner.

BTW, he's opened his shoulders about 45 degrees in the image you posted. He starts rotating at full foot contact at frame 71 which is normal. That's the point at which his arm position and how much he has or hasn't opened his shoulders provides useful information. He is in a good position in frame 71. The key for most pitchers is not rotating past the shoulders being in line with the target when the foot first makes full contact. Frame 74 is kind of a transitional position that doesn't tell you much.

You are certainly right that many HS pitcher open up early.

So are you telling gator that this is not good timing?

No. I'm telling him that isn't a good picture to show and say that his shoulders are closed. I believe O'Leary misuses this particular image to imply that his forearm is vertical at foot plant when it is actually at what ASMI defines as the ideal position when foot contact really occurs in frame 71 of this clip. Frame 71 and frame 74 are a tenth of a second apart and a whole lot happens in a tenth of a second when a pitcher is getting near to throwing the ball.

Well, you might be right about O'Leary off a bit, I don't like him on O'Leary's site, but hey, if it can help anyone, why not.

Coach my son and has had similar issues and the coach he was working with really focused on his glove side and getting it in the proper position and transitioning properly to help keep him closed. He also worked on his head stability. If they keep their head stable and glove in the right spot it sort of forces the landing and hip locations to be correct. I am sure others have some insight, but this has helped him.

Mom, I always get to it from Steve Ellis's site, but maybe it is just linked to OLeary's. Leave it if you don't mind it is a great resource for young tall pitchers.

I used frame 74 b/c in the breakdown (by O'leary) he said it was the frame where Kopp's foot touched down.... my mistake i know see that kopps foot landed in frame 71... oh well but lets stay with my original question and not get distracted by the image...

advice, tips, drills to help these pitchers improve there timing so only their hips have begun rotating as their landing foot touches down??

Thanks BOF, i will go back and concentrate more on the glove arm side action... that often leads to shoulders flying open too soon, GOOD THINKING!

If you take this clip which I got from hardball times and go through it frame by frame (download the gif and then open it with quicktime player) you'll see that Cain starts rotating sooner than Harden relative to foot contact, but because Harden doesn't counter rotate they both end up in about the same position.

Harden really doesn't rotate his upper body at all into foot contact while Cain rotates into foot contact but because Cain has counter rotated neither one is opening up early. Both of them have their arms in similar positions at foot contact but because his rotation starts earlier Cain has to have his forearm pointing down about 3 frames prior to foot contact while Harden's arm is roughly in line with his shoulders 3 frames prior to foot contact. Cain makes foot contact 1 frame after Harden in this clip in order to have them release at almost the same time.

Two different ways to achieve the same goal of staying closed. Harden's is probably a bit more repeatable although I'm not overly fond of what he does with his glove.

One of the interesting things in this clip is the difference in tempo which many people measure from the top of the knee lift to foot contact. They are very different for the two pitchers but it really doesn't seem to have an effect. The exception to this rule might be Roy Oswalt because his tempo is so fast that it makes up for his arm being a bit early at foot contact.

On a good day my son's arm will be in the position at foot contact that Kopp's arm is at 3 frames after first full foot contact. On a bad day that happens even earlier and we need to find out a way for him to have it where Kopp and Cain and Harden have it at first full foot contact. Right now he's just trying to get rid of coming down toe first and trying to stay closed a bit longer to achieve that result.

That brings up another issue. Analyzing video can be very informative but it usually takes a good pitching coach to work with the player to help them make the change. There are very few kids who you can just tell "hey, you're opening up early" and then expect them to be able to make the change. The other thing is that a drill or tip that might work for Harden might not work for Cain or vice versa because of the differences in the way they get to the right position at foot contact and at release.

Again, Im just looking for some advice on good ways to fix the problem. The boys I watched on video today are not slightly open they are WAY OPEN... If my guys threw like either Harden or Cain I wouldnt be posting for tips on how to fix them.

Gater022,
It is a very common problem in part because it isn't easy to fix. Generally, I'd say go with keeping the glove arm elbow away from the body a bit longer. Unless a pitcher uses counter rotation effectively to create velocity or deception I'd tend to try to get them away from counter rotation as it does tend to lead to opening early. On second thought I'd probably leave getting rid of counter rotation or not up to an experienced pitching coach. Another thing you can do is lots of core work. Many HS pitchers simply don't have the core strength to stay closed as long as desired.

Toe taps and step-behinds...make them concious of their position and in a relaxed way get them to adjust to a more efficient timing.
TPM that boy of yours is really solid but yes Chris uses him to promote his agenda...I think his timing is great. CaDad called it right...
How ironic that gator picked your boy TPM..but I'd say for good reason.
Gator I'd just do some group stuff (Like the above mentioned drill work) and then film the guys individually and see if I couldn't introduce some incremental changes.

Chris has got the breakdown on his site, I don't mind if it helps a pitcher. What I don't like is when you use someone like that to promote yourself and then bring up things on another site you have no clue what you are talking about.
Gator, son is a product of Kevin O'Sullivan, HC and pitching coach at UF, I do believe he has a training video. I also agree with the above, the core strength has a lot to do with it.
If you are interested in talking to him let me know.

please explain toe taps.

Toes taps, start from the set position, basically bringing the knee to normal lift or if you prefer knee to knee, lift up and down to foot strike three times before actually delivering, the purpose is to load the bottom half and getting the feel down before initiating upper involvement. It's one of the drills I've learned from the staff at the University of North Florida. It is an excellent form drill, used with the step-behinds it raises conciousness as to posture loading and timing.

quote:

son is a product of Kevin O'Sullivan

When contacted via e-mail he is very gracious and will respond to questions.. He recommended my son to Rodney Hennon at Ga. Southern while he was HC at Clemson..so I have nothing but great things to say about him.

so when you say "lift up and then down to foot strike" do you have them actually break their hands too? or do the hands only break when they actually deliver a pitch?

Only at delivery.

My pitchers have always done what i call a three balance drill where they tap their lead leg (foot) twice before pitching... for this drill you are saying that they actually come out of balance and stride down the mound, then reset a couple times before throwing?

No you cover it with your 3 balance drill.

Gator,

Early shoulder rotation is usually caused by posture and/or glove issues.

Posture issues can make it difficult to get good hip and shoulder separation by pulling the shoulders around early. To avoid this, keep head and spine online with the target through ball release (or as close to it as possible.

For glove, get your pitchers' arms into an equal and opposite position as close to foot plant as possible. That will buy them the timing to delay shoulder rotation. "Equal and opposite" means equal angles at the elbows. Make all adjustments to the glove arm - not the throwing arm. If your pitchers complain that it feels like they have to hold the glove out front artificially long, tell them to get their butt moving forward sooner/faster.

OK a couple of other things they worked on popped in my head driving home. 1. Hip drive 2. Heal position.

First my son is tall and has always been a “glider”. He has always landed open also. He was always able to throw fairly hard based on his size. The gliding and as well as some poor instruction from the past with the whole “glove side pull down” that was taught years ago. Anyway back to your question.

They worked hard his glove side like I said earlier. They started by simply playing catch and focusing on glove position and keeping it closed. Your pitchers should envision their glove holding position and their body moving into it. They also worked on hip drive getting him to drive out with his butt more aggressively. The coach would stand in front of him while he was on the mound in the stretch position and he would hold his arm against his shoulder and get him to drive out with his butt. Lastly they worked on his heal and made sure he drove out toward the plate with his heal leading him. Sort of like the back two cleats leading the pitcher toward the plate. All of these things led toward a much more powerful drive that was in line with the plate and kept him closed up longer.

As CADad said some of these changes take a lot of time and dedication, but it should help your kids get headed in the right direction.

Would the "keep your arm back" cue help?