My high school son made some adjustments in his pitching mechanics. He looks like he picked up 4-5 mph. Is this normal with just a few changes?
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Throughout the history of sports mechanical change has increased athletic performance!
The two big ones right now are the Dolphin kick and Overhead pitching.
Sounds like your son discovered involuntary forearm pronation an immediate velocity increaser. The trick now is to train it and perform it voluntary.
The two big ones right now are the Dolphin kick and Overhead pitching.
Sounds like your son discovered involuntary forearm pronation an immediate velocity increaser. The trick now is to train it and perform it voluntary.
quote:Originally posted by Yardbird:
Throughout the history of sports mechanical change has increased athletic performance!
The two big ones right now are the Dolphin kick and Overhead pitching.
Sounds like your son discovered involuntary forearm pronation an immediate velocity increaser. The trick now is to train it and perform it voluntary.
ok, I do believe in Pronation but how you can determine anything from the above post as to why the increase happened makes no sense.
You would need to know alot more about this young man's situation and what he tried to make any assessment at all.
quote:Originally posted by wz8fvm:
My high school son made some adjustments in his pitching mechanics. He looks like he picked up 4-5 mph. Is this normal with just a few changes?
What is his age, height, velocity?
My son's velocity fluctuates 3-5 mph from game to game. I ask him and most of the time he claims it is just a lack of energy in some gains and a surplus of it in other games. Sometimes it's his overall adrenaline levels and how bad he wants to beat a team. I have noticed that when he does throw harder he has more refined mechanics. For him it just comes with "wanting" to throw harder and not necessarily thinking about changing his mechanics.
No it isn't. Can it happen? Yes. Is it more likely that he looks like he's throwing a lot harder but is throwing only a bit harder or isn't throwing harder? Yes. Is there any way for us to know? No.
quote:
Originally posted by wz8fvm:
He looks like he picked up 4-5 mph. Is this normal with just a few changes?
A handy good Stalker radar gun will let you know REAL quick. That is, if you gunned him prior to this change.
quote:Originally posted by Yardbird:
Throughout the history of sports mechanical change has increased athletic performance!
The two big ones right now are the Dolphin kick and Overhead pitching.
Sounds like your son discovered involuntary forearm pronation an immediate velocity increaser. The trick now is to train it and perform it voluntary.
First of all, there is no way you can say that pronation caused the increase in velocity without seeing him throw. Actually, seeing him before and after the perceived velocity gain.
Secondly, the dolphin kick has been around in swimming forever. I was a swimmer in HS in the 70's and the dolphin kick was used with the butterfly stroke as well as the dive and underwater portion of the butterfly events. It is not something that was just discovered recently. It was something that has always been around, someone just decided to employ it for other strokes as well as butterfly. Can't compare that to something that has been newly invented.
wz8fvm, to directly answer your question, yes, velocity gains can be seen as the result of improved mechanics. If you make your body work as a whole as opposed to just throwing with your arm, you can gain velocity - among other ways. However, I agree with CADad and YGD, if you are just looking at him and it seems like he is throwing harder, that may or not be the case. The only way to know for sure is to gun him.
Can't tell you how many time we have been watching a kid pitch and talking about how hard he is bringing it and we go ask someone there with a stalker what he is throwing and he is 5-8 mph below what we were guessing. You really can't tell without an actual measurement.
Field of dreams,
Its not a matter of belief, it exists. The question for you should be does using any pitch that is supinated OK?
When I taught traditional (1st 25 years) mechanics with no emphasis on voluntary pronation and the transitional timing changes it causes, I would never see immediate velocity increases with simple mechanical changes. When I started emphasizing voluntary pronation (last 12 years) and a higher elbow vector resulting from it, I am seeing immediate increases every time. This makes my guess an educated one.
I recognized the limited information available, that is why I used the word combo ’sounds like” to disclaimer any guesses I made.
Bballman,
You seem a little too preoccupied with my answers, your not stalking here are you?
You just read it, this proves I can say it and I agree that pronation instead of supination might not be the only thing that got him up a little more but I can guarantee you it does.
You seem to be unaware of the controversy?
In a very limited form and only during a few events, there are very few who can perform this mechanic well and the ones that perform it well are being challenged in its use.
You should be very interested in this subject and be an advocate in its use, they are trying to outlaw it or limit its use.
It has been mechanically perfected recently and added to all starts with a very few who excel at it. “someone just decided to employ it for other strokes “ making it a mechanical change for many particular events.
A mechanical change (“Newly invented” is your straw man) it is and the controversy is being hashed out now.
Marshalls mechanics are not newly invented either but since they are not employed in any high degree can still be considered new to many.
quote:“ok, I do believe in Pronation”
Its not a matter of belief, it exists. The question for you should be does using any pitch that is supinated OK?
quote:“how you can determine anything from the above post as to why the increase happened makes no sense”
When I taught traditional (1st 25 years) mechanics with no emphasis on voluntary pronation and the transitional timing changes it causes, I would never see immediate velocity increases with simple mechanical changes. When I started emphasizing voluntary pronation (last 12 years) and a higher elbow vector resulting from it, I am seeing immediate increases every time. This makes my guess an educated one.
quote:“You would need to know alot more about this young man's situation and what he tried to make any assessment at all”
I recognized the limited information available, that is why I used the word combo ’sounds like” to disclaimer any guesses I made.
Bballman,
quote:“First of all”
You seem a little too preoccupied with my answers, your not stalking here are you?
quote:“there is no way you can say that pronation caused the increase in velocity without seeing him throw. Actually, seeing him before and after the perceived velocity gain”
You just read it, this proves I can say it and I agree that pronation instead of supination might not be the only thing that got him up a little more but I can guarantee you it does.
quote:Secondly,
You seem to be unaware of the controversy?
quote:“the dolphin kick has been around in swimming forever”
In a very limited form and only during a few events, there are very few who can perform this mechanic well and the ones that perform it well are being challenged in its use.
You should be very interested in this subject and be an advocate in its use, they are trying to outlaw it or limit its use.
quote:“It is not something that was just discovered recently”
It has been mechanically perfected recently and added to all starts with a very few who excel at it. “someone just decided to employ it for other strokes “ making it a mechanical change for many particular events.
quote:“Can't compare that to something that has been newly invented”
A mechanical change (“Newly invented” is your straw man) it is and the controversy is being hashed out now.
Marshalls mechanics are not newly invented either but since they are not employed in any high degree can still be considered new to many.
Didn't mean to start a fight. I'm not an expert on pitching mechanics. In a nutshell, I'm told he's starting to pull through his upper body with his chest, back and arms in addition to a much better follow through. He is now a 6'1" and 142 Lb junior. Although a gun was not available, his velocity increase was noticed by coaches, parents and teammates. He was last radared on a cold night in early May. His weight had dropped to about 135 Lbs. He topped out that night at 78mph.
Yard, the difference is that the dolphin kick is controversial because it may violate the rules for being illegal for the strokes other than butterfly. It is accepted as being effective. Marshall's mechanics are controversial because they are not accepted as being effective, not because they violate the rules of the game.
wz8fvm, don't worry about starting a fight, this kind of discussion starts whenever yardbird comments. He teaches a mechanic that (if done to his liking) is radically different than what anyone else is teaching or practicing. It's not you or your topic.
Your son's mechanical change may very well have induced a change in velocity. I think all we are saying is that you should really get a definitive answer because the perception can often be different.
Sounds like he is starting to use his upper body in unison, rather than just using his arm. The follow through will be a result of everything coming together. He should follow through just because of what happens prior to that, not something that he should really try to do. The true mechanical change was getting his upper body, chest, back and arm to all work together. As a result of that, his follow through will be more thorough. The coaches are looking at his follow through because it is an indicator of what he does prior to that.
Good luck with your son and his pitching. Once you get a gun on him, let us know how much of a change in velocity this mechanical change actually brought about.
wz8fvm, don't worry about starting a fight, this kind of discussion starts whenever yardbird comments. He teaches a mechanic that (if done to his liking) is radically different than what anyone else is teaching or practicing. It's not you or your topic.
Your son's mechanical change may very well have induced a change in velocity. I think all we are saying is that you should really get a definitive answer because the perception can often be different.
Sounds like he is starting to use his upper body in unison, rather than just using his arm. The follow through will be a result of everything coming together. He should follow through just because of what happens prior to that, not something that he should really try to do. The true mechanical change was getting his upper body, chest, back and arm to all work together. As a result of that, his follow through will be more thorough. The coaches are looking at his follow through because it is an indicator of what he does prior to that.
Good luck with your son and his pitching. Once you get a gun on him, let us know how much of a change in velocity this mechanical change actually brought about.
How did he lose 7 pounds on a cold night? 
Sultan,
He had lost seven pounds from the start of the season. Hectic schedule, getting home at 8 pm, not eating dinner, quit lifting....
He had lost seven pounds from the start of the season. Hectic schedule, getting home at 8 pm, not eating dinner, quit lifting....
Bballman,
This is the simplistic reason given by the athletes whom cannot perform the mechanic well; this is how they will get the superior mechanical change in those strokes to be eliminated.
The perfected version that is tremendously more advantageous and only performed well by few 4 years ago gave them an incredible advantage.
Just like Marshall’s materials give his pitchers an incredible advantage because of effectiveness.
They are becoming less and less controversial as time goes bye, how could they not, they work! Why would someone say they are not effective? This sounds like a select few talking for the many that have no experience with it.
This is an ironic statement! Being that when Marshall played they actually changed the rules because of him and it drives the Sabsermatic people nuts today because they just cant put their relief numbers together, at that point in history they contemplated changing other rules concerning (field also) Marshall also but failed.
Even now anti Marshall rhetoric puts his full motion in violation of the rules! Not enforced by the way because all pitchers violate it also.
Yes, it prevents all injurious force application, allows you to overload train sport specifically and gives you a superior game.
I believe this statement has little merit! There are many coaches in the past and starting these tenets; just here in SoCal there has been huge interest as of late in all corners.
All!! Passing Gurus teach Marshall’s passing tenets they learned and started passing down 35 years ago.
Even done half arced is more like it! You think any one kid does it with a 1000 score on the MTS or how many leg lifted drop in variations there are that are trying to get to at least a 300 score, every kid does it differently but with tendencies and motor skill ability differences. How would you know any way, every time I try to bring in pertinent information about what has happened and is happening I get the Marshall haters welcoming committee treatment automatically.
How many times do I have to tell you it’s been practiced a plenty by not only me but many more than me and that every thrower and pitcher has an MTS.
This is the question you have to ask yourself”
wz8fvm,
See how you picked right up on the attempt? If you understand negative banter when someone else offers positive information its OK, I believe it is an autonomic response now with some. Just read the parts where someone is trying to help your son through you and answers your questions first.
How did you react to just my original statement? I’m curious?
Its called “abeyance of scientific acceptance” I think? I believe I am going through the scorn and ridicule phase here but I can see light coming from the corner of the room.
A long-standing question with in Marshall quandary is will the information come in from the top down or the bottom up?
quote:“Yard, the difference is that the dolphin kick is controversial because it may violate the rules for being illegal for the strokes other than butterfly”
This is the simplistic reason given by the athletes whom cannot perform the mechanic well; this is how they will get the superior mechanical change in those strokes to be eliminated.
quote:“It is accepted as being effective”
The perfected version that is tremendously more advantageous and only performed well by few 4 years ago gave them an incredible advantage.
Just like Marshall’s materials give his pitchers an incredible advantage because of effectiveness.
quote:“Marshall's mechanics are controversial because they are not accepted as being effective”
They are becoming less and less controversial as time goes bye, how could they not, they work! Why would someone say they are not effective? This sounds like a select few talking for the many that have no experience with it.
quote:”not because they violate the rules of the game”
This is an ironic statement! Being that when Marshall played they actually changed the rules because of him and it drives the Sabsermatic people nuts today because they just cant put their relief numbers together, at that point in history they contemplated changing other rules concerning (field also) Marshall also but failed.
Even now anti Marshall rhetoric puts his full motion in violation of the rules! Not enforced by the way because all pitchers violate it also.
quote:“He teaches a mechanic that is radically different”
Yes, it prevents all injurious force application, allows you to overload train sport specifically and gives you a superior game.
quote:“than what anyone else is teaching”
I believe this statement has little merit! There are many coaches in the past and starting these tenets; just here in SoCal there has been huge interest as of late in all corners.
All!! Passing Gurus teach Marshall’s passing tenets they learned and started passing down 35 years ago.
quote:“(if done to his liking)”
Even done half arced is more like it! You think any one kid does it with a 1000 score on the MTS or how many leg lifted drop in variations there are that are trying to get to at least a 300 score, every kid does it differently but with tendencies and motor skill ability differences. How would you know any way, every time I try to bring in pertinent information about what has happened and is happening I get the Marshall haters welcoming committee treatment automatically.
quote:“or practicing”
How many times do I have to tell you it’s been practiced a plenty by not only me but many more than me and that every thrower and pitcher has an MTS.
quote:“It's not you or your topic”
This is the question you have to ask yourself”
wz8fvm,
quote:“don't worry about starting a fight!”
See how you picked right up on the attempt? If you understand negative banter when someone else offers positive information its OK, I believe it is an autonomic response now with some. Just read the parts where someone is trying to help your son through you and answers your questions first.
quote:“this kind of discussion starts whenever yard bird comments”
How did you react to just my original statement? I’m curious?
Its called “abeyance of scientific acceptance” I think? I believe I am going through the scorn and ridicule phase here but I can see light coming from the corner of the room.
A long-standing question with in Marshall quandary is will the information come in from the top down or the bottom up?
When I work with Pitchers, I try to shy them away from overhead pitching. Reason being, figure how many pitches a pitcher throws in a game, now stand there and put your hands over your head this many times.. Gets tiring after a while therefore why put any unnecessary movements that will tire you out sooner?
Some may disagree and that is fine, but this is my approach to how I work with pitchers.
Some may disagree and that is fine, but this is my approach to how I work with pitchers.
