Merrimack @ Salem

Poore will not be starting for a week or two. He's battleing a sore back. He was pulled from the Andover game after 4 innings and then only faced a couple of batters against Timberlane. I still don't understand why they started him vs Timberlane instead of giving him the extra time off to get back to 100%. They'd better get him healthy if they want to advance deep in the playoffs. It's a shame not to see him pitch. Hopefully he'll be good to go soon.

Too bad for Poore. He will be fine once we get some consistently warm weather....in July.

I've seen and heard of many questionable pitching decisions this spring. Kids going not only 100+ in pitch counts, but 120+, 130+, 140+. Pitching staffs aren't deep on a lot of teams so the better arms get leaned on.

Poore is very talented and there is a lot to commend for kids wanting to be on the mound, wanting the ball. The line between soreness, pain and injury is often too blurry for players. He has some great years ahead of him and I think the NH baseball community (and all of the Northeast) wish for him to be 100% healthy and competing against some of the best college programs in the country soon.

120 or 130 does seem excessive.

But, 100+ does not if the plus is small. ex 103, 105.

Many of the pitchers throw all winter or at least start throwing on a regular basis in January.

Where do most people draw the line on excessive?

The best thing that every personally happened to me as a result of this website was feedback from a fellow member, NH Monty. Some pitch counts were posted from my son's team for his start and another pitcher on his team. The numbers were in the 120 to 130 range. He personally reached out and said, stop it now if you want your kid to throw at the next level. That was when he was a sophomore.

Now in his junior year, his count is 90. This number was a result of me asking many more educated than me, including a current major league agent that has 10 players in professional baseball. One comment he made was "Why would a high school coach think its okay for a 16 or 17 year old kid to throw 130 pitches when fully mature men aren't allowed to do it?"

My son approached the coach himself and explained why he wanted a count and that he would be responsible being efficient and having control (i.e. limiting walks.) I wasn't involved, nor would I want to be unless the coach was not receptive to it.

I think it's criminal to have kids throw that many pitches, especially if they have already committed to a college to pitch. If I'm that kid's future college coach, I'd want a piece of his high school coach.

If your control is good, 90 should get you in a position for your team to win. If the high school coach hasn't developed enough arms, so be it. They don't care about your kid once they graduate. My son's won three of four starts exceeding the limit once because he took a no-hitter into the 7th inning, and still only threw 99 total. One thing to impress is that the pitcher has the majority of ownership on their pitch count. Don't walk batters and you don't have to throw 130 pitches.

Another example to ponder. My son's team has two seniors that have been varsity players since freshman year. Both pitched to excessive pitch counts for three years. Now in their senior year, both have blown arms and will not throw a pitch this season nor play college ball. I'm not finger pointing, but your can connect the dots.

Sorry to rant and use my kid as an example, but it's a huge pet peeve of mine and I can't stand coaches that are ignorant to pitch counts. If you have an interest that has college potential and your letting high school coaches take advantage of their talent and damaging their health you probably won't be able to forgive yourself if something serious happens.

Not much anyone can argue with, LJ. You make some great points.

A point that I have been thinking about for a while happens to be one you mention. If 120-130 is excessive for men playing professional baseball, what are the HS pitching coaches thinking? Yes, some do it occasionally, but when it happens announcers make note of that # as if it is something special.

Two years ago I saw a 13 year old throw 135 in a 10 inning AAU game. Was anyone counting on his bench? I believe they beat us 3-2. I saw him pitch last fall and he wasn't the same I know it happens every day. It's about the wins I guess.

I think 90-100 is a fair # for a 16-18 year old. If your are smart with ice and rest etc. But what happens a lot at the HS level is the young man also plays another position. Also, HS pitching rules say 5 innings or less, 3 days rest. So I can throw 110 pitches on Monday and come back on Friday. Correct?

I like your point about control. Pitching to contact and learning to control the strike zone is vital.

Today in eight MLB afternoon games the starting pitchers averaged 100 pitches and 6 innings plus. Professional teams protecting their investment as the Yankees tried to do when they instituted the "Joba rules."

Good points gentlemen. I would like to add that there is more to pitching than just pitch counts. I have only taken two pitchers in two games in my ten years to the 130 pitch count, and both were unique circumstances/kids. I am an advocate of allotting an appropriate pitch count number based on numerous factors, but not for setting a hard count no matter what. I generally ask my horses to go between 90-115 (at the most).
With the year-round training they have under the eye of a certified strength and conditioning coach I am confident that the arm-injury prevention program we use works. If a pitcher has a sore arm or doesn't feel they can give us 100% then we immediately warm up another pitcher and put them in as soon as possible. I recently did this with my #2 and shut him down for 5 days, he is fine now.
But to set a hard number doesn't make sense to me. I would also caution not to place all blame on the high school coach/program, as most kids throw way too much way too early before they even get to high school.

Bobby Tewks. If you are including Nick Poore in your questionable pitching decisions then you better get facts. Nick has never got close to 110 pitches in a game. His arm is 100%. And Hardball1 you don't understand because your not working with my team. I go above and beyond to make sure my players don't get hurt. There is too much speculation that goes on this site, if you have something to say about Salem Baseball you better get it right. My email is dkeleher@sau57.org

Coach, I agree. I am aware that your program has a year round focus on baseball strength and fitness and with that said, is likely in the huge minority in our state. I also concur that most talented pitchers have probably been misused in LL or Cal Ripken during travel season. Add on the few that have played AAU and also play a second summer league season and you certainly have a heavy workload prior to HS.

Although I settled on a hard count, its clearly debatable based on the individual. The larger point is anything wildly in excess of 100 should be up for debate regardless of program or pitcher.

Coach, just commenting on what somebody else had said about his back being sore. I wasn't trying to imply anything. I have been a fan of Nick for a few years now. Wish him nothing but success.

Dan Keleher (coach of Salem, NH)is one of the best high school coaches anywhere and has had numerous pitchers compete at the Division I level in college. Sweeney, Doyle, Nolan just to name a few, Poore has signed at BC. I know that all of his pitchers are on pitch counts and know Poore is out of the game when he is at 100 pitches period. The injury Nick has is minor and unrelated to any baseball activity. Dan's father is in the dugout every game and keeps perfect stats, pitch counts, etc. on every player, no pitcher could be in a safer environment. Noone should ever question his integrity.

Some of the arm problems may be because some pitching instructors have pitchers throwing 90-100 pitches by January 15th and by June their arms are spent. I have been with a few college programs in the last 20 years and know none of the programs I have been with had any pitchers peaking in January they brought them along weekly until the season started in mid to late March.

Coach - speculation and second guessing *is* what happens at sites like this

I think it's hard to go with a set hard count to fit "all" pitchers because they are all different. Tim Wakefield could probably throw 100 every other day, but Roger Clemens could be one you'd restrict. Then again, wasn't it Bob Gibson that would always be well over 100 game after game. I think Nolan Ryan had quite a few high counts, too. There's a slew of old time pitchers that just threw and threw and threw. I guess that's the "old school" vs. "new school" argument.

I agree consistently >100 at this age will result in a lot of "second guessing". Going >100 in "a" game to get "a" win - that's on the coach to know what his limit and his pitcher's limit is. Obviously if you ask a 16-18 year old kid he's going to want to stay in. The testosterone is flowing and he thinks he's superman. My son's been in the 90's a lot lately (he threw against Salem in the BG game, coach). He's been throwing in the offseason and he takes care of his arm in between starts. He's one of those pitch to contact and stay around the plate. He may have gone >100 a few times, but I'm not concerned because I know where he's at and I trust the coach to make the right decisions.

As for the youth level I think it's up to the parents to speak to the coach. You don't get on a HS team or into college based on "a" LL/CR season nor do you get there from "an" AAU season. Coaches there may not be looking out for your child's well being. There's reasons why LL has enacted rules regarding pitch counts and catcher to pitcher swaps - there's too many coaches that cannot be trusted. Some AAU coaches are even worse - that's when you have know the goal of the program you got involved with. Did you go because they were winning all the time or did you go because you were getting better training. Unfortunately at tryouts you may given all the hot dogs and apple pie, but once you've paid your fee you get the brussle sprouts and lima beans...