Migraine

Did you question them about their teaching methods?

Are they college coaches? I have found that this method of hitting is common among many college coaches. I just can't understand it!


I am getting a headache just thinking about it! This is probably a result of being in that situations myself.

I can live with the "hands to the ball" and the "A to B ...hit down". Those are just cues and as long as the hips lead the hitters will adust.

(edited) Leading with the hips taking the shoulders out? That doesn't make any sense. When my son's shoulders start flying out we focus on getting the hips to turn. Shoulder rotation without clearing the hips causes the hands to get outside. Letting the shoulders rotate following the hips keeps the hands inside, takes the "hands to the ball" and takes the bat from A to B from which point the swing can be completed on a level path for a speedy singles hitter, a slight upward path for a line drive/gap hitter or a more upwards path for a power hitter.

college and pro

CADad.. your right about the hips of course. There is a lot of coaching malpractice at all levels. I started to explain it and the looks I got. As Sandman would say...

"Take this for a grain of salt as I have no credentials"

Kids were 10 and under ....thank goodness. They will not remember hopefully.

It's next to impossible for the hips to lead and still swing down. Not impossible to do but impossible to hit that way.

Why even say it?

Lamber ..beats me.

I watched tapes a couple of years ago from Texas A&M s' Mark Johnson. He had a player hitting down over a folding chair. Banging the ball downward off the tee with rear elbow extending.

And top hand drills that roll and throw the bat out pulling the rear elbow from the body.

I did meet a young x-pro hitting coach that knew what he was doing. He was very good!

Some older guys did not know what "slotting the rear elbow " meant. They seemed to have many stories of what this one said or that one said but did not seem to have a grasp of what has been called the video reality of the swing. It seems to be a more recent/modern medium to exchange ideas.

Sounds like Boomer's AAU coaches!

"Hit down on the ball Boomer!" "Throw the knob of the bat to the ball!" "Extend your arms to the ball!" "Don't uppercut!" "Get your elbow up!" "You know Ross, if you would let us teach him proper mechanics he would hit even better!"

Thank's coach, but we're ok with a .483 BA (team high) and a .689 slugging %.

......Aaaaarrrrgggghhhhh!!!!!!

I try to explain rotational/linear hitting and they look at me like I'm an idiot. They told me that Boomer is hitting well "inspite" of his rotational mechanics.

......Aaaaarrrrgggghhhhh!!!!!!

I couldn't take it anymore and had him tryout for a new team last Saturday. The first drill that the coach had the kids work on was rotational hitting mechanics!!!!!!!!!

After the drill Boomer ran over to the fence and said "FINALLY!" ...and I smiled.

Swingbuster,
Little change of subject here. I'd like to get your opinion and other opinions of a discussion I had with a LL coach recently. He works with the 7 & 8 year olds and he was very unhappy to see coaches telling kids to start with their hands back. He believed that their hands should be no further back than their shoulders in their stance because he felt starting with their hands back resulted in casting.

Personally, I don't believe this is the case. I believe that not using the hips is what causes casting. If the elbow doesn't drop into the slot as the shoulders begin to rotate then the hitter will cast. The hip turn is what pulls the elbow into the slot. The casting is far more obvious when the left arm is somewhat extended in the stance. The ideal would be to start with the hands at or forward of the shoulders and then to "walk away from the hands" during the stride and the beginning of hip rotation. However, some kids just don't have the coordination to do this and you are better off starting them with their hands back and focusing on getting the hips to rotate. Once this has been accomplished you can start moving their hands to a different location so they aren't starting with dead hands.

Opinions?

CADad

My first observations about young kids years ago was very simple. If their hands were not cocked/ shoulder back then they did not hit it very hard. The other observation was that they could not do it while striding like MLB player do. By cocked and loaded I mean the following:

I mean top hand closer to pitcher than bottom

Bat tip toward third

Front elbow ( from batter's view looking down) more pointed to the rear foot than front foot.)

Gwynn said " when every good hitter comes to the hitting positon the bat should be in a high cocked position". In fact the position is close to a point to where coaches warn you about getting wrapped"

I have since seen that the bat is not wrapped as long as the bat/forearm angle is around 90 degrees. The bat gets back by shoulder turning around the spinal axis' not arm /hand movement.

Casting IMO cannot happen when the hands/ shoulders are back at toe touch. I have the Southeastern Casting Champion at my school.I can put his shoulder/hands in the hitting positon and he unloads them as the ball comes and swings all arms. I have some frequent flier miles and I might send him to you.

You cannot cast a bat if your upper body loads into toe touch. Casting is the hands working backwards unloading ( or never loading) into toe touch. The body knows it cannot fire what is not cocked.

For the young kids I form a U with the front arm , forearm, and bat. I rock the U until the lead elbow points to the rear foot. I tell them to set their feet and hit with their hips. " Set your feet" is an interesting way to say take a short stride without using the word "step". Casting will be gone forever with a little work.

With all due respect guys, could this "change of subject" possibly be a good seque into a new thread over in the Pre-HS forum, even w/ a link from here to there?

Just a thought.

Sandman,
You're probably right and I thought about it but the mechanics apply at all ages and I'm guessing more opinions will be stated here. If they aren't I'll start it up in the pre-HS forum (or someone else will) and see how that goes. Good comment.

Sandman,

You have a PM.

I love getting off track.Danger lots of detail and stray thoughts.

This is one reason I posted the golf message to Coach C over at batspeed.

If anyone gets a chance,check out the Bobby Jones golf instructional movie short on "the downswing".

He critiques a golfer who "reverse pivots" or "never gets off the back side" or "opens up too much" or turns the hips early".

Jones says the sequence must be as follows:

Wieght shifts forward before hip turn starts/while club is still going back,then hip turns,then torso turns.Something about this sequence gives good stretch to the front side and good rotational sequencing,similar to the feel of a "firm front side" in hitting.

Some of this has to do with getting the weight forward at toe touch with the front leg remaining flexed as you rotate into toe touch and drop the heel as mentioned by swingbuster.
The photography in the Jones movie is really worth seeing.

Hitting probably has a similar requirement.First keep the weight on the inside of the back foot as the hip is cocked,

-then weight shift accelerates forward as scap loading(bat cocks/centers) creates twist with the front leg stretching out in the stride,

-then the front leg rotates open leading the turning of the hips open while the bat uncocks toward the catcher and the hands stay back as the front foot opens at toe touch

-then the front heel drops and weight shift is blocked which accelerates the hip turn,separation maxes out and front side firms up(good front side stretch)creating tight connection.Even though axis is stabilized by weight shift blocking/going back with back shoulder dip/tilt,the weight starts coming off the back foot as it turns over/flexed back knee turns down and in

-then swing launches by torso turn/uncoiling/untwisting.Even though hip has turned open and maxed out turning speed,hip remains cocked/pinched at waist/front hip elevated until it is ready to uncock/"bow-arch" lead by bottom hand lead arm/torso pull(not backside push or unpinching of front scap which would create disconnection).This gets you completely off the back side onto the back toe,usually with a little drag if the sequence has been good.

tom.guerry quote,

quote:

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Hitting probably has a similar requirement.First keep the weight on the inside of the back foot as the hip is cocked,

-then weight shift accelerates forward as scap loading(bat cocks/centers) creates twist with the front leg stretching out in the stride,

-then the front leg rotates open leading the turning of the hips open while the bat uncocks toward the catcher and the hands stay back as the front foot opens at toe touch

-then the front heel drops and weight shift is blocked which accelerates the hip turn,separation maxes out and front side firms up(good front side stretch)creating tight connection.Even though axis is stabilized by weight shift blocking/going back with back shoulder dip/tilt,the weight starts coming off the back foot as it turns over/flexed back knee turns down and in

-then swing launches by torso turn/uncoiling/untwisting.Even though hip has turned open and maxed out turning speed,hip remains cocked/pinched at waist/front hip elevated until it is ready to uncock/"bow-arch" lead by bottom hand lead arm/torso pull(not backside push or unpinching of front scap which would create disconnection).This gets you completely off the back side onto the back toe,usually with a little drag if the sequence has been good.

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Sounds like you just described a kid hitting a baseball! Really simple and unrefined. Thanks!

Knowledge is Power! Thank you Mavens and HSBBWEB!