Milligan is not allowed to settle Region Championship on the field

Bizazz, While there may be a reason that I don't understand, I would have to agree with your assessment. This does seem very unfair. I'm sure Spalding (which is a great school) would rather have won on the field.

I'm sorry for your guys and the coach. I'm sure that guy feels terrible. If you come across the reasoning behind this rule, share it with us.

I'll be happy to do so if I find out anything.

DPDad may have more info.

While I'm on the subject I need to make note of DPDad's son Dustin.

Dustin Price completed his career holding a number of Milligan offensive records. He also has excelled in the classroom.

Dustin is a fine you man and great player. My best wishes to Dustin. He's going to be a success. Hopefully his baseball days are not yet over.

Here's the rule from the NAIA Coach's Handbook

quote:

POSTSEASON COMPETITION

I. RESPONSIBILITIES OF PARTICIPATING INSTITUTIONS

A. The official party for each team participating in postseason play is 26, with no more than 24 players in uniform. Institutions may provide additional coaches to be in uniform and sit in the dugout or team bench area, but those coaches will be the financial responsibility of the institution. A total party of not to exceed 28 persons, plus one trainer (29 total), will be permitted in the team area, which includes the dugout or bench or bullpens.

The list of up to 24 eligible players (Official Postseason Roster and Entry Form, Appendix H) must be submitted to the NAIA Department of Championship Events at the time of the institution's selection into NAIA postseason play. Only players on the official playoff/post-season roster may be in uniform. If a team is discovered using a player not on the tournament playoff roster at anytime in a postseason tournament, that team is immediately disqualified from further post-season play that year. From the point of first infraction by a team using a player not on the playoff roster, all subsequent games shall be forfeited by the offending team.

While the rule is plain, as are the consequences, I just do not agree with the punishment. To ban a team from further post-season competition on a technicality like this seems unduly harsh.

I would hope that the rules committee would look at this - or someone provide a reasonable explanation why the punishment has to be this severe.

Here's a good writeup in the Johnson City Press


http://www.johnsoncitypress.com/default.asp?SectionID=DETAIL&ID=47110

I did not realize the the pitcher who replaced the original ineligible player was also absent from the roster. The second pitcher actually recorded two outs before leaving the game.

That still doesn't change the fact that, in circumstances like this, forfeiture of the game in which the ineligible player appears should be sufficient punishment.

Like it or not the rules are what they are and all coaches involved should know the rules and be totally aware of the infractions and penalities--- how can a coach, especially a collhe coach in playoff time, not know who is rostered players are?

Nobody is trying to deflect blame or that a mistake was made.

It happens. Players and coaches make mistakes.

A similar occurence happened in a Tennessee high school game last week.

I'm not refuting the rule. It's as plain as day.

But, I do question whether the rule is unduly harsh in a circumstance like this. This is a matter for the rules committee.

Just like the error indicates the need for better checks and balances in the dugout, the consequences of this particular error should at least open some dialogue in the rules-making process.

There are eligibility issues across sports. I may be wrong, but in most cases, when ineligible players participate they are required to forfeit the games that they played.

That should be punishment enough in this circumstance.

Then, if the coach chooses to use an ineligible player in the next game, they can forfeit it at that time.

Bizazz, I agree that this seems a very severe penalty. With it happening there at the highschool and college level - I can bet you that there won't be a coach around who doesn't check and double check his roster next year!

I admire you for not wanting to have the coach's neck. There would be a lot of parents/players so angry that they could not see past this mistake. Good luck to your guys next year.

Coach Clark has done a fantastic job at Milligan. His Milligan teams are annually in the top 2 or 3 teams in the league. Because of Milligan's academics, he has a tougher time recruiting and retaining players than some schools.

I don't think anyone is going to hold this against him. He'll be tougher on himself.

Bizazz.....

For several years I was on the Rules Committee and the Tournament Procedures Committee for the NAIA. I looked at the Milligan roster, which has 35 players listed. The coaches had to trim that roster down to 24 for the post-season and submit it to the opponents and th Tournament Director.

The rules are stated clearly, as you copied and pasted above. I doubt the NAIA coaches are going to make any changes, as in my opinion, none are necessary.

It might have just been a mistake, but the consequences are clear, and when rules are not followed a price must be paid.

It is too bad for the coaches and players, but I'm certain Coach Clark will never make that mistake again.

Bizzaz - Everybody that knows Danny Clark knows that he lives and breathes baseball and that he would never knowingly do anything that would jeopardize any of his players or his program. Kids come to play baseball at Milligan College because of Danny Clark, his passion for the game and his players, in spite of the tough academic standards.

While Dustin was heartbroken over the way his college baseball career came to an end, he in no way holds what happened against Coach Clark. In fact he told me that he was more concerned with how Coach Clark was dealing with what happened.

I'll send you a PM with the details I have about the whole scenario on Saturday.

Thanks for the kind words about Dustin. I hope his playing days are not over either. We'll find out June 7th and 8th.

Grateful, I respectfully disagree about this rule as it has been applied here.

The rule, and the punishment, are plainly stated.

However, in my opinion forfeiture of the game(s) in which ineligible players participate is sufficient punishment unless it is clear that the rule was circumvented to give the team an advantage in future games. In this case, the rule violation was not an attempt to circumvent the rules and it did not provide Milligan any advantage toward the second game.

Bizazz.....

I understand and respect your opinion of the rule and the consequences of violating it. But, unfortunately for Milligan's team, opinions have nothing to do with the results.

Many people disagree with the idea that a RHP can fake a pick to 3B then throw to 1st....they say it is deception and should be a balk.....but the rules allow the pitcher to do that.

All the teams play by the same rules.....every NAIA team and every NCAA team is limited to using a specific number of players in the post-season, and those players must be listed on the official post-season roster. As a matter of fact, as stated in the rule above that you copied/pasted, players not listed on the roster were not even to be in uniform in the dugout.

There is nothing that you or any other parent can do about this rule.

quote:

Originally posted by grateful:
There is nothing that you or any other parent can do about this rule.

Maybe not. But I can voice my opinion. I've read the TSSAA handbook re: Tennessee high school rules and, as best as I can tell, use of ineligible players only requires forfeiture of games in which the ineligible player participates.

Yes, I'm banging my head against a brick wall.

Just because "its the rule" doesn't make it fair, nor does it mean that the rule shouldn't be re-visited.

quote:

Originally posted by Bizazz:

Just because "its the rule" doesn't make it fair, nor does it mean that the rule shouldn't be re-visited.

Fair or unfair is only a matter of opinion. Personally, I believe it is fair.

"The list of up to 24 eligible players (Official Postseason Roster and Entry Form, Appendix H) must be submitted to the NAIA Department of Championship Events at the time of the institution's selection into NAIA postseason play. Only players on the official playoff/post-season roster may be in uniform. If a team is discovered using a player not on the tournament playoff roster at anytime in a postseason tournament, that team is immediately disqualified from further post-season play that year. From the point of first infraction by a team using a player not on the playoff roster, all subsequent games shall be forfeited by the offending team."
If the rule states that only 24 players can be suited up on the roster, why were any other players in uniform? It seems the mistake must have been in letting players not on the tournament roster suit up, when the rule clearly indicates that only 24 are to be in the dugout. IF he had done that, there is no way a mistake could be made. This is college baseball, not high school baseball. IMHO, he clearly blew it by allowing too many kids to suit up. Why would he do that? That was against the rule as well? He certainly wouldn't have told a pitcher to go get dressed cause we need you to finish out this game... He completely blew this one and there isn't an excuse for it. How many times has this happened in the NAIA playoffs? Also, if he had more than 24 dressed why did the umpires allow it? They should know the rule as well.

After this post, I'm through fighting about the "fairness" of the punishment. That's been my point all along. But this thread needs to sink.

JD you're correct in your statements. As far as dressing out more than 24 players, I heard second-hand that the coaches all agreed on this prior to starting the tournament. I agree that having only 24 dressed would have prevented the problem. Allowing everyone to dress was well-intentioned, but obviously bit Milligan on the butt.

FWIW there are also explicit rules re: the use of tobacco in an NAIA sanctioned event. I did not see any enforcement of that rule last week.

Rules are rules, and there's no defense when everyone clearly knows what the rules are. However we also know that rules are sometimes selectively enforced.

In Milligan's case the rule was clearly violated. And the punishment is clearly stated. But, for the last time (Grateful - no need to post again), I disagree with the severity of the punishment. Other governing bodies provide for forfeiture of the games in which the player participates. Beyond forfeiture of the specific game(s) I could not find punishment similar to the NAIA in the NCAA or TSSAA. It could be there, but I couldn't find it.

Ok, I'm going to try and shut up now.

i agree that it is a harsh penalty, but i bet once upon a time they had a bunch of trouble with this and put this rule in. While it seems harsh, and it is, evidently there were coaches back in the day who did things they should not have done. Baseball has always been a game in which your "not cheating" unless you get caught. I think this is why the rules were put in place. My thing is this - if you have rules enforce them or don't have them. you shouldn't be able to pick and choose the rules you want to have - the 24 dressing is what got him. If the guy ain't in the dugout, he can't be in the game. So two coaches trying to be player friendly and if the truth be known (parent friendly) because it's pc to do that now, cost's the team a chance to win this region and host the super regional. I bet he wishes he never let those 25, 26, 27+ dress now. It is ashame it happened, but again, he knew the rule and he should have followed it instead of trying to be nice. Did he let the kids know who were the 24 who were elgible? Or did he just dress them and not say? If i'm not mistaken the TSSAA has a rule of 18 dressing for the state tourney, at least they did when I coached last in 1999.

This is just unbelievable to me that a coach doesn't realize who is eligible to play and who is not. But then, to insert a second ineligible player!?! I can't help but suspect there's more to this story than we're being told.

Nope. That's the story.

Just a mistake.

We've all made mistakes.

quote:

Originally posted by DPDad:
Bizzaz - Everybody that knows Danny Clark knows that he lives and breathes baseball and that he would never knowingly do anything that would jeopardize any of his players or his program. Kids come to play baseball at Milligan College because of Danny Clark, his passion for the game and his players, in spite of the tough academic standards.

While Dustin was heartbroken over the way his college baseball career came to an end, he in no way holds what happened against Coach Clark. In fact he told me that he was more concerned with how Coach Clark was dealing with what happened.

I'll send you a PM with the details I have about the whole scenario on Saturday.

Thanks for the kind words about Dustin. I hope his playing days are not over either. We'll find out June 7th and 8th.

Hey there! This is your old neighbor from Berry Ridge Rd..Cindy here. We are trying to keep up with Dustin's baseball pursuits as much as possible, seeing how we have an up and coming pitcher. How did the drafts go..was someone smart enough to pick him up?