Minor perceptions

A college athletic team, with kids together for 3, 4, 5 years offers emotional growth and bonds with teammates and coaches that players generally greatly appreciate as it happens and miss when it ends. I don't know which is better for who. They are different types of experiences, like apples and non-apples. College baseball has been a very positive experience for our son that, well frankly, he is in no hurry to finish.

TPM,
I think a lot of the differences in perception derive from where you have been.
There is little doubt that experiences at a program at the level of Clemson can leave you somewhat poorly prepared for many of the experiences in minor league ball.
On the other hand, when you come from a DIII,(which our son loved and probably would not trade even if he could) have 13 hour bus rides and $5 per day meal money, sleeping 3 and 4 to a room for travel, the travel and motels in the minor leagues can actually make you feel pampered.
Even at the DI level, team experiences are not consistently rewarding, like they are at schools like Clemson. I know players from some West Coast DI's who never played for a conference championship, or contended, never played in a regional, rarely played before 200 fans,and had teams where relations were more contentious rather than inspiring, both in terms of team chemistry and in coaching relations.
In terms of his on the field experiences and relations with teammates, our son has wonderful things to say about both, at the minor league level. Certainly, you have to love baseball, and adjust to different experiences, to be physically and mentally successful beyond college. But the adjustments differ greatly depending on the college attended and the experiences within the program.
To be honest, the main on field item adjustment that is shared at the professional level, no matter what college you might have attended, is the "prospect" who does not perform to expectation.
On the one hand, these guys are very competitive and want to win. On the other, many times they will see a non performing "prospect" in the lineup day in and day out. It can be mentally challenging, especially when the "prospect" strikes out 2 times for each hit he might deliver, over a 3 year period, has never hit over .220 in that time span, and continues to play most everyday. It is, however, a fact of life in professional ball that actually helps you in other ways.
In summary, I agree with your perceptions that minor league experiences can be different than those in college. Depending on your experience in college, many of those differences are not necessarily a negative.

infielddad,
If you go back and reread, I did say that college and college experiences (including baseball).

I may not have made myself clear, I apologize, baseball is only ONE aspect of the college experience.

I understand what you have written but although your son may have had a different experience than others, he went to college first.

Knowing what you do know, could you have seen him doing what he does now out of HS? Most parents I know of college players now turned pro have said, no way could they have seen their son go directly into pro ball after HS. I realize I may get some negative feedback but it is my perception, I do not expect others to feel the same way. Yes, I know that many say it is the "best" time of their lives, but unless you have experienced both, there is no way to compare.

BTW, all three were bonus babies, one whose father is a millionaire, so they live pretty darn good for minor league guys. No complaints there, it was about missing the "team" experience. You and I know that it is NOT that way in minor league ball.

So MY perception, regardless of where my player went, how much meal money he got or didn't get, where he slept, what type of bus he rode in, I still strongly beleive that 3 years in a college setting benefited him. I did not say it was the right decision for everyone, but one that should be thought about seriously comparing the pros and cons.

And that is exactly right TPM, you have not experienced both. You have only experienced the college route. So your perspective is narrow, much the same as mine is in the other direction. I would consider it ill-advised to sit here and preach to anyone that to bypass college and go to play professionally is the most rewarding or intelligent route. This decision is so personal and includes a list of variables that is extensive as any that family will face.

As to the team experience, mine has a completely different perspective than the one you are commenting on. Mine loves his teammates, and feels invested in their success and failure. Maybe even more so, because they know what is at stake every time they take the field. They have lived through the injuries, the releases, the promotions. In the past week, mine has had two friends see different ends of the spectrum. One went to the majors and one got released. He was as sad for the one as he was happy for the other. They get to know the regulars at the ballpark and develop relationships with the communities they play in. So, no, it may not have the rah-rah atmosphere of the college game, but there is no lack of intensity. Every pitch matters, every at bat, every game matters.

Yes, the protective cocoon of college is comforting for the parent, but I am very proud of the maturity that mine has achieved at the tender age of 20. If he were a junior in college this year, he would not be the man he is, nor would he be at the place he is in his baseball life. Everything in life is a trade off.

In minor league baseball you eat, sleep and play with the same people (for the most part) every day.

Some of the closest relationships are formed by teammates who played professional baseball together.

The Florida State League and Rookie ball are bad examples. In the Florida State League there are a ton of very good prospects, but the games are not well attended. If you end up playing for someone like Dayton in the Midwest League... Well... They've had over 500 consecutive sellouts!

The fact that someones entire career is at stake in the minor leagues and the competition is great, tends to make each day a very important one.

Playing over 140 games a year with one team is impossible without forming some very good friendships.

The one thing I've noticed is that those who really do love playing professional baseball have a gigantic advantage over those who don't like it.

Also, while the first round types might get the longest look and the most attention, there are many lower round guys that end up ahead of some of those first rounders.

In professional baseball the make up of a player is of big importance. You can't force someone to love it!

Finally, I'm not for or against either choice. Just not smart enough to figure out what is best for me let alone best for someone else.

Obviously there are many success stories involving players who did it either way.

It’s difficult to say whether my son would be “better off” if he had signed out of high school or signed after three years of college as he did. I do know he is enjoying MILB and he also enjoyed the college experience. He has no regrets that he went to college but if he had stumbled in college and had not been drafted out of college how would he feel??
My son did go to an SEC college and the facility was rated the #1 college facility in the nation so the accommodations in the minors may be a slight step down but I’ve heard no complaints from him. His team does draw great crowds and they have a top notch facility. I actually feel as if the team “spirit” is very strong in his MILB team ---actually stronger than the college setting in many ways. Granted the team makeup is more diverse than college but that in itself is a new challenge and he seems to like the diversity. This diversity does tend to migrate players into their own group of friends and it seems as these "friends" do everything together. They live together, ride together, eat together and their leisure time is spent together. Deldad paints a picture much like I would as far as the team unit goes. I also think they have a pretty good support network amongst themselves. The players are given more freedoms in the minors than they had in college and the staff looks at them more as their peers than their underlings. There doesn’t seem to be any babysitting in the pros as there was in college. So should he go to college or turn pro out of high school???? It is nothing more than a fork in the road and as they say --- “If you come to a fork in the road -- TAKE IT!
Fungo

When my son was considering college vs. pro I would always remind him that "you can only go to college when you're 18 - when you are 18" - sounds a little crazy but think about it.

Teams reminded us of the MLB college plan then would give us a very weird look when we replied "you can only go to college when you're, etc.

As others have pointed out, college isn't for everyone. In our case, three years later, my son and our family believe it was the right decision for him.

I wish we could all experience the "path not taken" and use that in our decision making but we can't. What we can do is try to learn from the experience of others.

TPM,
Our son wasn't physically or emotionally ready, or nearly skilled enough to have professional ball/minor league ball as an option coming out of high school
For him, college and baseball at Trinity University was absolutely the very best. Through that, he got his degree in 4 years, developed a great deal personally, and improved a pretty incredible amount on the baseball side. For David, and our son, their paths are quite different, in a sense, but also very much the same, in a different sense.
What impacted my initial post was a discussion I had about the experiences of some local players at lesser known, less successful DI programs. That reinforced for me the very clear impression that college baseball and college experiences vary widely.
As a result, I am not as staunch or adamant as I once was that there is a "best" option. On the other hand, I fully and completely agree that a "good fit" in college and college baseball takes a back seat to nothing, other than possibly making some adjustments in the minor leagues a bit more challenging.
I also wanted to bring up one other point in my "maturation" process on professional vs college baseball. I read some things a few weeks back about a high school senior who is now injured and in need of TJ surgery. Part of that information was how he would be back next year playing and contributing in college. My immediate thought was whether college baseball was a good choice. It is becoming ever more clear, IMO, that top level DI baseball is about winning, and winning now. Minor league baseball, for those coming from high school, is about development, patience, development, in most organizations. If I had a son who was thought to be a top level talent, coming back from a serious surgery, I would very carefully look at professional ball for him out of high school, providing he was drafted by the right type of organization. While I have no way of proving this, I just have a sense he would do better in an environment of development, within a good minor league system (they are not all the same) than an environment of winning now.

I don't ever lose sleep about the other fork in the road. I can say this with confidence, if my son would have been drafted in hs, he would be in the pros right now - he loves the game that much and frankly so do I. Since he was not, that is really not anything we lament about.

As far as we both are concerned, things could not have turned out better. He plays at a nationally ranked program near Myrtle Beach. It is gorgeous down there in the spring time. They are flying out to Nebraska as I type this and he just told me the word is they are sold out for the weekend - 8,000 per night. It just does not get any better for a young man. If he were in the pros right now, I would be telling you all how thrilled he was with that opportunity. Everything has its pros and cons. It is indeed a state of mind.

Thanks for all of your "perceptions".

That was the idea of my post, it was my perception, and as Deldad points out, it may be one sided. My opinion and perception is that college should be viewed as a whole experience, not just about baseball. With that said and my perception, I beleive strongly in college as a best option, NO MATTER where one will attend. The college experience doesn't include baseball everyday. If I thought mine was ready for baseball everyday, he would not have gone to college first.

Deldad, your son was a top prospect out of HS with an unusual situation and if I am understanding correctly, he did receive a good signing bonus. Would your families consideration been different if he was not a top prospect out of HS?

My post was not directed to those who would be turning down a large sum of money. My post is directed to those whose sons might not be top prospects. In HS, many times it's about the money, my opinion, it should not be about the money but about the opportunity. If one wants to play pro ball than that is what is should be about, and it is a personal decision.

PG,
High A is a lot different than rookie ball where those out of HS play. I am hoping that parents or players realize what goes on in rookie ball, it is a far cry from high A ball.

The average playing time for a MLB player is 4 years (average). The other day I heard a former MLB player on the radio that has done every job you can imagine after his short career. He did not attend college but stated if he had it to do over again he would have gone to college first. It gave me something ot think about.

PG,
Last week I was out to see son while he was playing in Dayton. Had wonderful time. Games were sold out, they have a waiting list for season tickets.

Fungo,
Our sons just got done playing a series against each other,Your son had a double and hit one out of the park in the first game

Everyones experience is different,even for the players drafted out of high school.
A high school player who is assigned to a team that is hours from home may find the adjustment to pro ball much easier than a player who is sent across the country.
A player who has a car will find the adjustment easier than a player without one.
Some players have host families,some have apartments,some live in motels.
Some travel 100 miles on bus to games ,some 600 miles (Pioneer league)
Many things factor into the transition to pro ball,its not just about age.

Very interesting discussion and I think all make great points.

One thing that TPM stated in her initial post is, I believe, very very true:

"Most players entered the stadium on thier own, stretched on their own. No feeling of "team" spirit"

I believe there are several reasons for this, in addition to 'bonus babies' getting more attention because more money has been spent on their signings, but I personally believe the most important reason is that everyday on the field and in the clubhouse is like a job interview. Granted, college players also have to perform well on a regular basis or they run the risk of being bench warmers. At the minor league level, if the players don't perform well, they are not sequestered to the bench, they are released with barely a fare thee well in some organizations.

For players who truly love the game and who have been taught to be 'team players' throughout their lives, it is a real eye-opener. I have heard our husband tell our son several times over the course of his pro career that he (son) needs to start thinking of himself first, putting himself first, when managerial decisions don't make sense because every other pitcher in his position wants his job. This has been difficult for our son because it is completely contrary to what he has been taught for many years. Coupled with that is not just the attention the 'bonus babies' get but the attention and leeway the 'organizational prospects' get (bonus or no bonus), but the inflated egos of guys who are reading too much of their own press, some biases and prejudices, and the obvious separation of ethnicities on many of the teams and there doesn't seem to be a whole lot of room for team spirit. It is about player development, win or lose, and the steady workhorse players are not always the ones getting the attention they need for their own development because the organization knows it is a business and they have their own ideas of what 'works'.

I, like many others, do not believe that there is a definitive option when the opportunity arises to sign out of high school or go to college. Nevertheless, I do believe that the professional road can be very very tough on the younger players who may have never slept more than a few miles away from home without a family member there. Add the living and travel challenges to the mix and I think there some 18 year olds might have a difficult time adapting to the changes.

Whatever the "best" decision and option is for any player and his family ... what a great benefit you all are providing by letting our members hear about your own sons' experiences in both college and minor league baseball! I wonder if each of you knows - every member who has posted in this thread - how helpful your stories are, and how very interesting this topic is even to parents whose sons may never be faced with a draft decision. Thank you!

FBM - I think your husband gives good advice. I think there is still a place for team players but priorities are different at the next level.

I believe you have written in the past your son was a chemistry major in college. He likely would be making between 60 and 80 thousand dollars right now if he were in that field after college versus the minimal amounts he earns in the pros. Of course, there is a bigger prize down the road but I am confident that he wouldn't trade what he is doing now for any other "job" in the world. I wonder if he even views it as a job? Thus, even with the difficulties and uncertainties involved, he and others like him are still doing something that the rest of us can only dream about

I may be "off base here" but I don't see the players driven by money (yet) yes, the goal is the major leagues but the drive is to be the best, to play in the mlb, to be a major leaguer, not the big contracts. Maybe that comes later
Actually, If it was about the money and because there such big contracts I'm surprised there aren't players trying to sabotage other players careers

Quote by TPM

quote:

PG,
High A is a lot different than rookie ball where those out of HS play. I am hoping that parents or players realize what goes on in rookie ball, it is a far cry from high A ball.

True, there is a big difference between each and every level and high A is much different than Rookie ball. My point was the Florida State League does not draw as well as most Low A Leagues and even some Short Season Leagues. The level of competition improves at every level.

Rookie Ball has been part of baseball as long as I can remember. It is the normal starting point for young players. Most clubs will have their very best instructional people staffing those Rookie level clubs. Most are based at the MLB Spring Training sites for their club. The travel is much less strenuous than the higher levels.

Is there something evil that goes on in Rookie Ball that parents need to know? I look at it as one long extended baseball camp and an education into professional baseball. They play a game nearly every day (usually in the mornings) without a lot of fans around. Maybe not very glamorous, but it serves an important purpose for both the players and the organization. Personally, I still can’t believe how much my son improved in his Rookie Ball year. I’m really thankful he started there. My other son started at A Ball… long bus trips, lack of sleep at times, less supervision, tougher competition, etc. Looking back I wish he would have started out in Florida or Arizona in the Rookie League.

Regarding college baseball, I absolutely love it! There IS more enthusiasm and team/school spirit! Other than the metal bats, I think it is the best of true baseball. High school ball is great too for some of the same reasons, but all one has to do is be in our shoes for a couple days to realize baseball is very much an individual thing at nearly any level at any age. Parents for sure are more interested in a certain individual, and for sure players better be more concerned with an individual. Yes, for sure it is that way in professional baseball. Just ask any AAA player if he had a choice, would he rather win the AAA League or get called up to the Big Leagues. None of this stops friendships from forming or keeps players from enjoying what they are doing.

In the end it is all the same, just different levels of competition, the individual needs to get himself recruited, then be part of the team or the starting line up. Then he needs to get himself to the next level. There is a reason so many unhappy players transfer to a different college. It’s really all about the individual! It has to be that way in everything we do. Then the cream rises to the top. None of this stops the team concept and desire to play as a team and win.

This is all just my opinion… I could be all wet on this!

PINGGGG!!! Those metal bats just gotta go. Your perspective is very well rounded. Very good post PG!

quote:

Originally posted by njbb:
I may be "off base here" but I don't see the players driven by money (yet) yes, the goal is the major leagues but the drive is to be the best, to play in the mlb, to be a major leaguer, not the big contracts. Maybe that comes later
Actually, If it was about the money and because there such big contracts I'm surprised there aren't players trying to sabotage other players careers

IMO not off base at all.

Like infielddad my son has his degree in his back pocket. If it was about the money he wouldn't still be in extended spring training rehabbing an injury. Sure he laments not getting paid except a per diem. Fortunately my son likes Ramen noodles. Actually they do feed them well for breakfast and lunch. One of his best friends from Dartmouth is now in banking making big bucks and has told him he'd trade it in a heartbeat to still be playing.

As for playing in the minors, my son wasn't spoiled in college so it wasn't a big deal to travel on a bus, etc... The team stayed in a hotel at Bluefield so it was no big deal staying in hotels on away games.

One of the biggest adjustments is having all the foreign players who speak little or no English on the team. My son is relying on his 4 years of high school Spanish to help him out. He actually helped the DR guys last season with off the field stuff. As some have pointed out, the "team" aspect is there, but not to the extent it was at Dartmouth. Bluefield's last game of the season ended up going extra innings and they were out of the playoffs so they just wanted the game to be over. Josh came in and some of the teammates were asking him (some seriously) to serve one up to get the game over. They said with his stats it wouldn't hurt him. Of course that's not Josh so the game played on. They are auditioning for a job and even if you're not a "prospect" people are watching. He LOVES baseball and will continue to play until they tell him he can't regardless of the $$.

So even though my son has done both, there is no way I can tell someone else what they should do. Life has consequences so make sure you weigh all the pros and cons, cross all your t's and dot your i's and once you've made your decision, don't look back.

Another viewpoint which was my sons

When he graduated college he was offered a free agent contract--he had seen what happened with 5 years of teammates getting cut within a 12 to 18 month period---and he had a great job waiting for him which would not be there in another 12 months-- he declined the offer and went to work

It was his decision and I had no problems with it and I do not think he has looked back---he had a great time in college, got a degree and is now doing well in the work world

Different strokes for different folks

There are a lot of factors to be considered. My views are pretty much the same as TPM's. I think the college experience is irreplaceable but not for everyone. I viewed it as a developmental period. My son was way too skinny and physically underdeveloped. He needed more velocity and we never worried about Pro ball. I have several friends who signed and are still in the minors. One made it to the Pirates 40 man roster but was sent back to the minors. This to me is a risky route. College opens up other doors that may or may not include sports. My son has been teaching at camps etc so this could lead to other things as an example. MLB has other openings for knowlegable grads.
I had been around a minor league team for years and they do tend to form groups that hang around together but seem to enjoy the experience. My son and I have been to picnics with them and other get togethers.
There were some big bonus guys, Delgdo,Henke,Wells just to name a few. There were probably 50 or so who went on to be ML stars. They all seemed to be happy guys. Some went to college and lots didn't. There was every type of player there and they seemed to get along. i always remember the island guys sitting under a big shade tree being taught english by a teacher. I enjoyed being around them as they were all poilte and friendly.

For what it's worth, our son tells us that some of the most uptight and stressed players he sees in the low minors are often college guys and the most relaxed and able to enjoy themselves tend to be high school guys. Perhaps the high schoolers feel they have more time to aclimate and progress whereas the college guys feel they are under more pressure to deliver sooner. The jump into pro baseball is a big change for both.

quote:

Originally posted by MN-Mom:
Whatever the "best" decision and option is for any player and his family ... what a great benefit you all are providing by letting our members hear about your own sons' experiences . . . how helpful your stories are, and how very interesting this topic is even to parents whose sons may never be faced with a draft decision. Thank you!

No disrespect. . . but, I feel the more opinions I read, the more confused I get.

I have enjoyed reading the comments on both sides of the issue. I think the best advice I read last year was, "once a decision was made, never look back."

My reasons for studying the issue is to help provide the best advice to my son. We have stated that we will support his decision either way. His goal since he was 6 has always been to play PRO BALL. I even remember early on, being a good parent, thinking that was a great aspiration, but he needed to think a little bit more realistically. Boy was I offbase.

Anyway, the opinions help to list the pros/cons. It is good to see both sides from many differnet perspectives. I'm just trying not to go crazy.

My perception of the minors, after following our son in the pros for almost 5 years, has been fairly positive. Our son's organization has taken excellent care of him, always putting his development ahead of everything, including wins. All of his coaches have had major league experience and know first hand what it takes to reach that goal.

As for friendships, he's lived and worked with guys from all over the country and has become very close to many, including some of his coaches. At his wedding last year, over half of his friends in attendance were from pro ball.

Travel in the Northwest League (Short Season), the California League (High A), and the Eastern League (AA) has been on charter buses. Most trips are under 5 hours. He's currently in the Pacific Coast League (AAA) and now flies to most locations on regional jets, which actually can take longer than 5 hours from door to door. The hotels have steadily improved at each level...from Comfort Inns to Marriotts. His travel at a mid level D1 was very similar to short season ball...charter buses, Comfort Inns, and fast food.

As for living arrangements, in Short Season and High A ball he stayed with host families, much like summer ball in college. Since AA he has shared apartments with teammates, usually in complexes near the field. Now that he's married, he shares a fairly large apt. with his wife, 2 dogs, a close teammate, and whoever else needs a place to stay. Last I heard they had a player sleeping in their dinning room on an air mattress. Guys move up and down frequently, but it all seems to work.

He goes to the field every day around 1:00pm and gets home around midnight. Before the game he works out, watches films, hangs out with teammates, eats, etc. The club house food improves at each level...from carry out at Short Season to catered food spreads past High A. Days off are rare, but always fun...usually spent with teammates on some adventure.

For him, college ball was just one of many steps along the way, somewhere between high school and short season. The biggest adjustments for him when he entered the minors after his junior year were the length of time away from home and playing every day. Baseball is a game of adjustments, though, and so far he's been able to make them with faith that everything happens for a reason and God is in control.

Minor league ball isn't easy, but anything worth achieving usually isn't. Each kid has to play the hand he is dealt. Some have better choices out of high school, some out of college. My biggest concern when our boys were coming out of high school was that they made decisions they wouldn't regret. I now realize that outcome lies more in their ability to make the best of whatever they decide to do, than in the decisions themselves. As much as we want to protect our kids from struggle and disappointment, we really can't...and their greatest sense of success usually comes from overcoming some form of adversity.

Encourage your kids to seek good advice, follow their hearts, commit themselves to doing their best, and look for the good in every situation. IMHO that's the best way to avoid regrets when life throws them curve balls...and based on our experiences, they'll face plenty of curve balls no matter what they choose to do.

TxMom that was a real gem of a post. Thanks for sharing it with us.
Fungo

Txmom, a double

Thanks, TXMom..............

TxMom ...

As always, a great post with wonderful examples of life in the Littles (as opposed to the Bigs). So much of what you describe matches our son's experiences to day, including sharing living arrangements with his wife and teammates, and I appreciate the positives in your post.

God bless.

Here's a perspective from the outside looking in. Search "educational attainment in the United States" to get a good perspective on the value of a degree. You can still play the game and chase the dream, but you better do it with an insurance policy in your back pocket. That comes in three forms; Daddy's thriving business that's waiting for you to come to work after you hang it up, a huge signing bonus that's socked away, or a 4 year degree. Anthing less than that could leave you with a bleak future if "the dream" slips away. The only option you have complete control over is the attainment of a 4 year degree at a college that will essentially pay you (in more ways than one) while you earn that degree.

Lots of great pespective here, and I'd like to thank all that posted on this thread. Special thanks to TPM for getting it started.
TxMom has reminded us so eloquently of what we best not forget. She has hit upon the essence of what we all must come to grips with as parents, and that is 'just' letting them go. Well said TxMom.

This is great stuff.

quote:

Minor league ball isn't easy, but anything worth achieving usually isn't. Each kid has to play the hand he is dealt. Some have better choices out of high school, some out of college. My biggest concern when our boys were coming out of high school was that they made decisions they wouldn't regret. I now realize that outcome lies more in their ability to make the best of whatever they decide to do, than in the decisions themselves. As much as we want to protect our kids from struggle and disappointment, we really can't...and their greatest sense of success usually comes from overcoming some form of adversity.

PG,
I've been to a few Dragons games and that 500 consecutive sellouts number for the Dragons is a bit misleading. It is absolutely no problem to walk up and get a good ticket a few minutes before game time and although attendance is good the stands certainly aren't full. I'm not sure what they are doing to be able to claim sellouts.

Just going by what is claimed on the link below.
LINK

This is clearly the best discussion I have ever read on the HSBBW. For us it is timely - something I needed to read about to advise our own son. Thank you Tiger Paw Mom, Fungo,Tx Mom, and all the rest of the contributors on both sides of this issue, and good luck to all of your sons.

Season tickets seats are sold whether someone sits in the seats or not. At the request of the season ticket holder some minor league parks will re-sell the tickets if season ticket holder is not attending the game. The season ticket holder gets credit towards next yrs tickets
The Dragons may base their claim on tickets sold not by the number of people in attendance. Also if they had 50 seats in the stands unsold but 50 people were sitting in the lawn area ,could they be considered themselves sold out?