MLB and Japanese and Latin players.....

So true.

I remember as a 10 year old swinging a bat that was too heavy with the 'instructional swing' (32" oz.)

I started just swinging relaxed because I couldn't drag the bat through fast enough to make contact.

When I relaxed my swing and let the bat do most of the work, I was hitting the ball farther and faster than my more learned teammates.

That coach kicked me off the team because I wouldn't listen, but I was picked up as I was leaving the park by a team with a full sponsor (Goya).

The coach mentioned that he 'liked' my swing.

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So, it sure seems to me I am seeing more and more Japanese and Latin MLB players every year....Their little bodies seem to be able to handle all that movement at a young age....

But, then, they probably don't have Coaches teaching them how to swing like we do over here....

Bluedog - it appears you are an advocate of movement in the swing and body. You posted a clip of Gary Sheffield the other day and indicated that is how it ought to be done/taught. I can certainly see the movement in Sheffield's swing. What I don't understand is if you like Sheffield so much, why don't you like Manny Ramirez even more? I don't see the movement you are talking about in Manny's swing. I see a short-to-the-ball swing with lots of bat speed but not the movement or motion as in Sheffield's swing/body. Many has played five less years than Sheffield yet his numbers are superior in every category. I am not sure that teaching someone Sheffield's swing is the answer. It works for him but it may not be the answer for others.

OK, let's compare Manny and Scheffield.......

That bat triggering really gets things going.

What about Vlladamir ? He certainly tips the bat pretty good too .

It's not so much how much they tip the bat, but how they tip it and why they tip it. You have to know what they are trying to accomplish. Babe Ruth, Lou Gerhig, Joe Jackson, all made this move many, many moons ago. It worked then and it works now!

We talk a lot about "loading hips" and "loading shoulders", and I know that there are many here who downplay the hands aspect of hitting. But, it almost seems as though this timing mechanism, this triggering mechanism, appears to "load" the hands and wrists. I know that when my son incorporated this trigger, as seen above (not necessarily to the extreme of those above) his bat speed increased significantly.

Yep! Bat's lighter and allows more stretch and time to see the ball. It also puts things in the right sequence.

How does someone take the position that power hitters are rotational hitters, and downplay the significance of hands and wrists, or the "top hand". It sure looks to me like the best hitters make use of more than just arms and a rotating core. The use of Hands, wrists, and forearms do not make you a linear hitter.

You might be a linear hitter if:

• your hands force your elbow to leave your hip before you contact the ball
  
• you flip your wrists before you make contact
  

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Originally posted by BlueDog:
OK, let's compare Manny and Scheffield.......

What do you see when you compare them?

The waggle of the bat is not random...it is creating synchronization with the lower body and maintining monentum while the eyes are processing the pitch.

quote:

Originally posted by wayback:
The waggle of the bat is not random...it is creating synchronization with the lower body and maintining monentum while the eyes are processing the pitch.

That is an excellent description wayback. I checked your bio to see if you were an engineer or scientist but could not tell.

If you look up at the Sultan of Swat's avatar above, you will see a clip of Babe Ruth. His synchronization mechanisms reminds me more of Sheffield. Does the way that Sheffield and Manny synchronize remind you of each other?

quote:

Originally posted by wayback:
The waggle of the bat is not random...it is creating synchronization with the lower body and maintining monentum while the eyes are processing the pitch.

wayback - you have made me realize something.

Hope no one laughs me out of this forum but wayback's description made me think of a possible analogous mechanical system - the helicopter. It is the idea of counter-acting forces to maintain stability. In this case, it is counter-acting torque to maintain stability. With a helicopter, the small rotor blade counter-acts the torque of the main blade in such a way to keep the helicopter stable i.e., spinning out of control. Also, the axis of motion of the rotor and propeller are 90 degrees from one another. The human body during the swing is also a balance of counter-acting torque's at 90 degree angles. The hips are the main propeller blade operating on one axis of rotation whereas the load and swing-plane act as the roter blade. If all that sounds dumb, I will remove my post

quote:

What do you see when you compare them?

I see a two-plane swing developing....The bat is out of plane early on as the hands load against the front hip opening....

I see stretch, momentum and weight shift in a very efficient swing....And, lots of movement....



What I don't see is still, dead-hands hitting....I don't see stride, load and wait kind of stuff like I see being taught all over to the young kids.....

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What I don't see is still, dead-hands hitting....Not stride, load and wait kind of stuff like I see being taught all over to the young kids.....

Fair enough. Like Manny, I have always liked Chipper's swing.

Bluedog - Is it fair to say that as long as you see smooth consistent movement in the swing that you are not as concerned with style? Do you have any recent clips of Josh Hamilton?

What I see is coaches teaching dead hand hitters because it allows for some success with metal bats against weak pitching. Dead hand hitters will never have success against quality pitching. And they will not hit with wood. Teach young kids how to hit properly regardless of how much success they have early. It will come with time and patience. Its very easy to teach dead hand hitting. Sit and wait , way wide and no hand movement. BlueDog you are dead on with this one. I could not agree more.

quote:

Originally posted by ClevelandDad:

quote:

What I don't see is still, dead-hands hitting....Not stride, load and wait kind of stuff like I see being taught all over to the young kids.....

Fair enough. Like Manny, I have always liked Chipper's swing.

Bluedog - Is it fair to say that as long as you see smooth consistent movement in the swing that you are not as concerned with style? Do you have any recent clips of Josh Hamilton?

There are some clips of Hamilton in the "Good stuff" thread. Mark DeRosa has added this too.

The longer the stride or higher the leg kick the more the bat has to be tipped. The key is to have the bat on plane (or very close to it when the front heel hits the ground, or as some say, "to launch point".

quote:

Originally posted by ClevelandDad:

quote:

Originally posted by wayback:
The waggle of the bat is not random...it is creating synchronization with the lower body and maintining monentum while the eyes are processing the pitch.

wayback - you have made me realize something.

Hope no one laughs me out of this forum but wayback's description made me think of a possible analogous mechanical system - the helicopter. It is the idea of counter-acting forces to maintain stability. In this case, it is counter-acting torque to maintain stability. With a helicopter, the small rotor blade counter-acts the torque of the main blade in such a way to keep the helicopter stable i.e., spinning out of control. Also, the axis of motion of the rotor and propeller are 90 degrees from one another. The human body during the swing is also a balance of counter-acting torque's at 90 degree angles. The hips are the main propeller blade operating on one axis of rotation whereas the load and swing-plane act as the roter blade. If all that sounds dumb, I will remove my post

Dad,


Not sure how a helo works, but I believe you hit the nail on the head when you talk about a stabilizer. The "bat float" keeps the upper body from spinning forward until it is pulled through using the core and legs. Also, the moving bat is much easier to swing than a dead one and easier to adjust.

quote:

Originally posted by wayback:
The waggle of the bat is not random...it is creating synchronization with the lower body and maintining monentum while the eyes are processing the pitch.

Yes, Sir! I could not believe how much longer I could wait to decide to swing the first time I tried this method.

Bluedog and Richard led me down this road a year or two ago. We were in a conversation about bad cues...keep your weight/hands back....and the misinterpretation of them.

I went on a journey of starting on time for a fastball, then searching for how to adjust for the off-speed while maintaining momentum. All too often, at least at the youth levels, when a coach tells a kid to stay back for the off-speed, he is cooked on the heater. They load on the back leg, stop the hands from moving, and end up jumping all at once (no upper/lower separation and not getting the barrel into plane) when the fastball comes.

Learning how to stride with controlled weight shift (ride the rear leg) and keep the barrel moving (from tilt to lag) without coming forward until properly timed has been my mantra this summer to higher level hitting. We'll see this fall with the return to campus.

quote:

It is the idea of counter-acting forces to maintain stability.

Nowhere is this more evident than Pujols.

His swing, with the rear foot off the ground seems like a leap of faith. But, the counter-weight of the barrel seems to hold him upright at rearward angle, and the rotation allow him to generate momentum and force into the ball.

quote:

Originally posted by wayback:
Bluedog and Richard led me down this road a year or two ago. We were in a conversation about bad cues...keep your weight/hands back....and the misinterpretation of them.

I went on a journey of starting on time for a fastball, then searching for how to adjust for the off-speed while maintaining momentum. All too often, at least at the youth levels, when a coach tells a kid to stay back for the off-speed, he is cooked on the heater. They load on the back leg, stop the hands from moving, and end up jumping all at once (no upper/lower separation and not getting the barrel into plane) when the fastball comes.

Learning how to stride with controlled weight shift (ride the rear leg) and keep the barrel moving (from tilt to lag) without coming forward until properly timed has been my mantra this summer to higher level hitting. We'll see this fall with the return to campus.

quote:

It is the idea of counter-acting forces to maintain stability.

Nowhere is this more evident than Pujols.

His swing, with the rear foot off the ground seems like a leap of faith. But, the counter-weight of the barrel seems to hold him upright at rearward angle, and the rotation allow him to generate momentum and force into the ball.

bluedog IS richard... your sense of smell must be deteriorating?

quote:

Originally posted by ClevelandDad:
wayback - you have made me realize something.

Hope no one laughs me out of this forum but wayback's description made me think of a possible analogous mechanical system - the helicopter. It is the idea of counter-acting forces to maintain stability. In this case, it is counter-acting torque to maintain stability. With a helicopter, the small rotor blade counter-acts the torque of the main blade in such a way to keep the helicopter stable i.e., spinning out of control. Also, the axis of motion of the rotor and propeller are 90 degrees from one another. The human body during the swing is also a balance of counter-acting torque's at 90 degree angles. The hips are the main propeller blade operating on one axis of rotation whereas the load and swing-plane act as the roter blade. If all that sounds dumb, I will remove my post

That's actually a great description.

I usually stay out of these discussions to avoid embarrassing myself, so at the risk of looking foolish....is the reason why some (BlueDog I believe) don't like the use of a tee because the tee can promote dead hands hitting?

I've been trying to think through this thread (and others), and this idea seems to make sense that the lack of a moving ball could really promote dead hands hitting. I'm not saying it's necessarily impossible to use a tee correctly without dead hands, but that possibly a tee can make dead hands hitting feel effective to a hitter.

quote:

Originally posted by Emanski's Heroes:
I usually stay out of these discussions to avoid embarrassing myself, so at the risk of looking foolish....is the reason why some (BlueDog I believe) don't like the use of a tee because the tee can promote dead hands hitting?

I've been trying to think through this thread (and others), and this idea seems to make sense that the lack of a moving ball could really promote dead hands hitting. I'm not saying it's necessarily impossible to use a tee correctly without dead hands, but that possibly a tee can make dead hands hitting feel effective to a hitter.

Without a doubt, live pitch hitting is the best way to learn to hit. I, though, do believe you can learn this technique while hitting off a tee. Obviously, you won't learn timing and that (I believe) is why Bluedog is so against hitting off a tee. If you don't learn to control the timing on different pitches, you will not be able to hit good pitching.
The way I taught myself the technique was to time the tip and my stride so that when I decided to swing (or go) was at front heel plant. I then took that to different speed pitching machines and then to live bp and finally game situations.

quote:

.....but that possibly a tee can make dead hands hitting feel effective to a hitter.

It does and it does carry over to swinging at pitchng.....

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.....so at the risk of looking foolish....

I would say you look rather smart....

I don't understand the either/or to tee vs. live hitting.

Of course you need both.

Work on your stroke with the tee.

Work on your timing on live pitching.

Stay off the tee........

If the stroke doesn't have the right timing, it's useless.....

The ball is not moving. You are working on your swing? When do you ever hit when the ball is not moving? How can you work on your timing off a t? Hitting is timing. Its putting everything together with timing being the most critical element in hitting. You can have a flawed swing , a flawed approach but if your timing is good you will have some success. You can have a perfect swing and a perfect approach but you will never have any success without timing.

When kids hit off a t and then go to live hitting situations they struggle big time. They struggle going from hitting a stationary object with one set of timing and then go to trying to hit a moving object with an entire new set of timing issues.

Now take a kid and work with him with some front toss working on hitting just like he was facing a live pitcher. Now take him to the field and let him hit. His timing will not be off like it is after he has worked on a t. Soft toss , front toss , drop drills etc these drills work on timing as well as the fundementals of the swing. T work kills hitters. It is not only the most useless thing a hitter can do it is the most destructive to his ability to learn a solid timing process in his swing.

THE BALL IS SITTING STILL ON A T. HE STARTS HIS SWING AND THE BALL NEVER MOVES ALL THE WAY TO CONTACT. How does this help a hitter?

Many will say "But so and so does t drills!" So. Alot people do things that are not productive. Spend your time doing something that will improve your swing process not your swing against a stationary object.

quote:

You can have a flawed swing , a flawed approach but if your timing is good you will have some success. You can have a perfect swing and a perfect approach but you will never have any success without timing.

Coach May, there are so many Coaches who simply follow the old worn out routines which don't work now and have never worked.....

You are not in that group....Any kid would be very fortunate to play in your program.....

There are two Coaches I respect alot....Yourself and CoachB25.....

Well, there's also Wayback.....

I agree that hitting is about timing, and live BP is better than a tee. But how does a tee HURT your swing? It helps fine-tune certain mechanics, and I don't think (could be wrong) that it hurts your timing. It would be detrimental if one only hit off a tee, but if they hit off of a tee and live BP, wouldn't that be the most beneficial?

The stroke - is timing along with the actual swing. There can be nothing gained imo with working on your stroke if timing is not part of it.

There are a ton of guys that can get on a t - slow everything down and hit a non moving object very well over and over again.

There is no reason you can not work on the stroke which is also timing by doing front toss drills or soft toss.

When a player is hitting off of a t the timing process is taken out of the equation. The ability to adjust to the pitch is taken out of the process. The ability to adjust to change in speeds is out of the process. Now you just went from a situation where you were working on your stroke with no timing and now your hitting in a situation where timing is critical. How does that equate?

You have a T swing and a live swing. You should have one swing process not two. You have guys that hit very well in the cage. The guy throwing the bp throws everything the same speed and right down the heart everytime. Now you take that kid put him against a pitcher who is changing speeds and location and you see a totally different hitter.

You take a kid that has just taken 100 swings off a t. He is mashing everything clean and perfect. Now you put him up against a pitcher and you will see serious timing issues.

It usually takes numerous pitches and swings before a good hitter starts to adjust and hit the ball solid on a consistent basis when he gets a good pitch. A t never throws a bad pitch. It does not change speeds because its not moving. It does not move in flight up or down or left and right.

Any drill that does not simulate reality is worthless. The reason so many coaches and players use t work is because its easy to do and it requires no work by the coach. Grab a bunch of t's guys and go to the cage. No one has to toss the ball. The player does not have to take any pitches. You get alot of swings in in a short period of time. And a player can do it all by himself.

With soft toss , front toss etc the player is working on his swing which is timing as well. He is having to make decisions on what to swing at and where to hit it. He is having to work on his timing process.

Cage BP can be just as bad as T work. How many coaches or dads have you seen throwing bp in a cage the same speed in the same location over and over again? The kid is mashing the baseball. There is no timing process here. He already knows how fast the ball is going to be coming and where it is going to be. You can strike these kids out in the cage over and over again. All you have to do is change speeds and location on them. They basically will make predetermined swings based on their experience of having grooved same speed pitches at the same location over and over.

The t does the same thing.

BP should be constant change of speeds and location. It should be designed to help kids work on the ability to time within their swing process and make adjustments as well. The t can not do this.

I know that there are many fine baseball people that use the t. I know that my views on the t are radical and many will think I am crazy. That is fine with me. All I know is from experience over many years of coaching players. Good hitters can work on a t and overcome it with a few swings of live arm pitching and get their timing back. Guys trying to become good hitters by working on a t are not only waisting their time but they are taking steps backwards.

Again timing is the most critical element in hitting. Any hitting drill that does not incorporate the timing of hitting in it is worthless imo.

quote:

The reason so many coaches and players use t work is because its easy to do and it requires no work by the coach. Grab a bunch of t's guys and go to the cage.

This is so true....Along with the fact that most Coaches, (almost all), haven't studied hitting and teaching hitting enough to know any better.....

This has been one of the better hitting threads here on the hsbbweb. Would also enjoy seeing some of the videos and images that were removed earlier in the thread - those on Ruth and other images/videos of the game's great players. Thanks.

I am one of those who like "T" time with live batting practice--combined they can work well---we also do a lot od "wiffle golf ball" hitting before games

Great pics Blue Dog but I see now swings in there and CY Young ? What did he hit?

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I am one of those who like "T" time....

There ya go.....

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bluedog IS richard... your sense of smell must be deteriorating?

OK, I'm ready to address this statement by Wogdoggy.......He must be smelling his upper lip....



The moderators know who's who around here.......

I'm BlueDog and only BlueDog.....Which begs the question..Is Wogdoggy only Wogdoggy?

Coach May, do you see all this connecting the hands to the shoulder that most are talking about?
I will say, I don't see it....