MLB & radar guns?

According to a friend who is in admin management for a MLB team the number you see on the scoreboard is exaggerated for the benefit of the fans. The gun held by the scout is accurate.

Every park has Pitch F/X, which tracks speed out of the hand (to the tenth of a mph), at the plate, drop in inches, etc., etc.  So, why would any scout ever, need a gun?

I used to think that too - but I've seen a wide range of ballpark guns from college to all levels of MiLB to the big leagues on the same pitcher - and they all say the same number range (hi/low/cruise speed).  And its the same number scouts reported too.

This may have been at the time. I commented how many times Billy Wagner hit 100 in a game my son and I attended. The friend started laughing and responded, "You would like to think so. Along with the rest of the fans who go nuts when he hits 100." That's when he told me how it works. It's been a few years and Wagner is gone. Maybe they don't do it anymore.

       


Trackman is very prevalent also.

I've never paid attention to a stadium gun at any level. There are too many variables involved - from different radar gun brands, gun placement, etc. In some parks, there is a distinct uptick in stadium-reported velocities than actual velocities.  I was at a game during the spring and noticed the stadium gun on a holster behind the plate. After a torrential downpour of rain began to fall, and the tarp was pulled, I noticed from my perch under the concourse cover that no one had retrieved the gun from the holster. I'm not an expert, but I'd assume pouring rain isn't good for the gun.

If anyone wants to see actual pitch data, all PITCH F/x results are public. Visit player/game pages at www.brooksbaseball.net or www.fangraphs.com.

So, basically, radar readings we all see at the ballpark and on TV are unreliable?  Some parks are good, some are inflated?  

I was watching a college game on TV about a month ago.  I think it was Ga. - Ga. Tech.  I had watched several of their games a while ago and noted how many of their pitchers were under 90.  They played this game at Turner Field in Atlanta.  All of a sudden everyone was well over 90.  Made me wonder at the time if the gun was inflated.

So, the question becomes, if you see a lot of these starters throwing 89-91, are they really throwing 87-89?  Just wondering.

Anyone pitching at Turner Field for the first time will try to light up the radar gun.  That's a huge rivalry.

Also, if you're interested, you can write down MLB gun readings for an at bat or an inning, then check it against Pitch F/X to see what the difference is.

Pretty much. I've seen plenty of parks that are accurate, but plenty that inflate velocities by a lot. Of course, I've never seen a stadium gun depress readings. If it's a big league game, PITCH F/x is probably your best bet. Here's the velocities tab on the Player Card for the man who is the hardest thrower in the history of the game (that we know of): http://www.brooksbaseball.net/...30/2014&s_type=2. You can toggle with the tabs on the top to see more information, or on the left to set the parameters. PITCH F/x is accurate.

EDIT: URL above is apparently broken. I was attempting to link to Aroldis Chapman's page at www.brooksbaseball.net

Someone is charting for a reason, whether it be that is what they do, or they have a reason and watching the pitcher closely for a reason. Maybe a trade is up and coming?

Stadium guns are usually not accurate in most places and after 95 they usually become totally inaccurate.

Possibly. As much as I love data, statistics, analytical information - none of it will ever completely dismantle the importance of the human eye when evaluating baseball talent. Scouts have their jobs for a reason, and are typically very good at what they do. I love the numbers, and lean on them heavily when scouring for information about MLB players. But, scouting will never be replaced.

I meant they may have a concern but if it were the phillies scouts looks like they may be the sellers this season so why not get your ducks in a row before its too late!!!!!

Definitely not Trackman, that's proprietary. I assume stadium guns, although to be honest I've never taken the time to fact-check it with PITCH F/x - so I could be wrong.

Alright, here's my observation over time on same pitcher (older son) - there is certainly a range of stadium guns.  My earlier comment was aimed at the average, more or less.

When he played in Fort Wayne (Midwest League), the stadium gun never registered over 90 on anyone - and trust me, they had some guys who threw in the mid-90s (not son at that time).  The team/scouts, placed their own gun behind the plate with pitchers charting other pitchers (common practice in MiLB).  I saw games there where the stadium gun said 88 and the charting gun said 95.  It was so obvious that the pitchers couldn't possibly ALL be throwing in the mid 80s that you just ignored it.

Why?  Bad gun location?  Bad gun?  Who knows?  It never got fixed.

So far as I know, in MiLB, his velo topped out at 97.  I also saw him hit 97 in a different venue.  Real or not?  I dunno, but that number is consistent. 

Skipping a lot of ballparks and moving to our son in MLB last year…including a debut in Atlanta - the stadium guns for games I was at (Atlanta and Nationals Park in DC) matched up  exactly with PITCH F/x data that I looked up later.  93/94.  Both of those parks and on the MLB official data.

Does that mean that some ballparks aren't inflated?  No idea.  Probably they are.  But blanket statements on this topic that stadium guns are high just doesn't ring true with me.  Some yes?  Some no.  And some (Fort Wayne) too low.

justbaseball- Sounds pretty spot on. I wasn't trying to say all stadium guns are wrong, I was just saying that I know there are enough wrong ones to remain skeptical overall.

And, for the record, your son's top velocity was 95.31 mph, on September 1 last year. Don't sell him short. 

ESPN Sunday night game and his first MLB win - wasn't there in person to compare data!  

TPM- The highest velocity that PITCH F/x has on your son is 96.92 mph, from 11/4/2011. 

Yep. Trackman has data too but, as I said, that's proprietary. Trackman data is far more in-depth than PITCH F/x.

Where are you getting Pitch F/X data with hundredths readings? 

If you go to the Velocities and Movement tab on a specific player page on www.brooksbaseball.net, there is a tab on the left hand side of the page that lets you set date parameters as well as search for maximum velocities. For example, the highest velocity ever recorded was 105.85 mph (!!!!!!!) by Aroldis Chapman in the 8th inning on 9/24/10 in San Diego.

Yes, Dan Brooks (founder of the website) is a Baseball Prospectus contributor - both sites are partners. Harry Pavlidis is the Director of Technology for Baseball Prospectus and handles all pitch classification data for Brooks. Not to stray too off-topic here, but Harry wrote a piece detailing a new movement in analytics in baseball - quantifying the value of a catcher's defensive skills. For those interested: http://espn.go.com/espn/featur...ankees-espn-magazine

There is a lot more in-depth info on the topic on Baseball Prospectus, but the ESPN.com piece does a very good job of condensing a lot of data.

Originally Posted by SultanofSwat:

Where are you getting Pitch F/X data with hundredths readings?

If you go to the Velocities and Movement tab on a specific player page on www.brooksbaseball.net, there is a tab on the left hand side of the page that lets you set date parameters as well as search for maximum velocities. For example, the highest velocity ever recorded was 105.85 mph (!!!!!!!) by Aroldis Chapman in the 8th inning on 9/24/10 in San Diego.

The info on that screen shot is not correct.  Pitch F/X does not have data in hundredths.

Fangraphs shows the max vel at 105.1 Further, I have access to the Pitch F/X raw data for 9/24/2010, showing that Chapman threw 105.1 mph in the 8th inning vs Tony Gwynn on the 5th pitch.

<pitch des="Ball" des_es="Bola mala" id="572" type="B" tfs="050426" tfs_zulu="2010-09-25T05:04:26Z" x="66.95" y="142.47" sv_id="100924_220731" start_speed="105.1" end_speed="96.5" sz_top="3.32" sz_bot="1.52" pfx_x="3.68" pfx_z="5.36" px="1.071" pz="2.547" x0="1.346" y0="50.0" z0="5.464" vx0="-2.285" vy0="-154.092" vz0="-5.69" ax="8.806" ay="39.668" az="-19.259" break_y="23.8" break_angle="-21.7" break_length="3.8" pitch_type="FF" type_confidence=".910" zone="12" nasty="50" spin_dir="145.713" spin_rate="1471.709" cc="" mt=""/>

Originally Posted by J H:

Originally Posted by SultanofSwat:

Where are you getting Pitch F/X data with hundredths readings?

If you go to the Velocities and Movement tab on a specific player page on www.brooksbaseball.net, there is a tab on the left hand side of the page that lets you set date parameters as well as search for maximum velocities. For example, the highest velocity ever recorded was 105.85 mph (!!!!!!!) by Aroldis Chapman in the 8th inning on 9/24/10 in San Diego.

The info on that screen shot is not correct.  Pitch F/X does not have data in hundredths.

Here is the *************.  Chapman threw 105.1 mph in the 8th inning vs Tony Gwynn on the 5th pitch.

Link won't open. I assume it's data from MLBAM. I can email Harry or Dan and ask them to explain the process of deciphering the algorithm and processing the data directly if you'd like. I don't know how to code the algorithm, just know how to interpret the results. 

JH, you have a message, or dialog, or something.

I've enjoyed this topic.  Learned some cool stuff.

I'm going to extrapolate again with another question.  Sounds like no minor league parks gun's are accurate and can be WAY off, even on the low side.  Does this mean that in MiLB they really don't care about velocity?  As long as you get the job done, you're good?  Or do they have the faulty guns going and their own personnel there gunning actual velocities.  I would think that once you get to AAA and the MLB team is looking at possibly bringing you up, they would be interested in velocity, but in the lower levels, does it matter?  Just wondering if the lack of accurate radar translates into lack of care about velocity.  Hope that makes sense.

Our experience after playing a large number of games in MLB and MILB stadiums is they vary greatly and seldom are accurate.  We have seen some read high and some actually read low.  We used TrackMan at our National Showcase in Ft Myers earlier this month.  TrackMan velocities were within one MPH of the Stalker on most every pitch, often Trackman would read something like 91.5 our gun would read 92.

The first thing we do is check the stadium reading against our readings.  If there is too much difference we don't even use the stadium gun.  At some point we plan to use TrackMan for everything. In fact, it will be permanently installed at the LP complex.

One thing that we have found is people complain about gun readings. We could have a peak of 87, but someone swears they saw a 93.  Maybe they did see the 93 but it might have been off the bat. No one throws mid 80s and peaks at 87 and all of a sudden throws one 93 mph. Now lately I have heard people complain that our guns read too high. So and so has never thrown that hard!!!!  That is a new one, but it's not true.  Could be jealousy creeping in!

Based on talking with JH, BrooksBaseball converts Pitch F/X data from 50 feet to 55 feet.

I'm not sure why they do that.  Let's walk this through.

Aroldis Chapman's stride is over 7 feet.  Typically, pitchers release the ball over their front foot.  So, Chapman releases the ball at least (60.5-7.0) 53.5 feet from home plate.  So, Brooks calculated speed from 55 feet would be impossible.

The 'average' pitcher has a 6 foot stride, so the release point would be approx. 54.5 feet.

So the Brooks speeds don't correspond with speeds posted anywhere else.

It would be good to know what distance Trackman uses for it's max pitch speed calculation. (I apologize if it's posted somewhere and I missed it)

PG,

Was TrackMan up and running at LP for the 17U WWBA last week?

TrackMan was installed this past week.  I believe three fields are done and the other goes in tomorrow.  

Wow pretty amazing to have a system like this on an amateur field. Nice!