Most Difficult Positions

quote:

Originally posted by bsbl247:
Let's face it, there aren't many Johnny Bench's, Mike Piazza's, and Ivan Rodriguez's out on the diamond. Buster Posey may be moved to another position when he returns from injury?

Doesn't that kind of demonstrate the opposite of your argument ?

ss's are involved in maybe 8-10 plays a game, a catcher 100+

if a ss misses a ball, there is a backup from an outfielder, if a catcher misses a ball he is on his own, no one to back him up, yes, a pitcher may come in and cover at home if he remembers, but there is no one behind him.

The real hardest position on the field is the umpire, on a good day 50% of the time he's wrong

Most Difficult Positions

1) Catcher 2) Pitcher 3) Shortstop

The most difficult are also the most important IMHO. A team can only be as good as their catcher.

Standball Dad wrote:

quote:

Blocking does not take that much athleticism, its a reactionary response with good technique and most players can do it given the right instructions and practice.

Whoa, you blew me away with that. Check the definition of athleticism. Blocking requires quick response time, agile angling, rapid follow-up, and great intelligence while its happening. Sounds pretty athletic to me!

PS A catcher plays every day, sometimes twice a day. No four day rests for him even though he probably throws more than ANYONE on the field. Oh yeah, while squatting. Get down the line. Block a steam train. Then remember what to do after blocking steam train. Chuck a laser to 2nd. Lead the team. Know the situation. Call the pitches (ok, depends on the coach). Manage the psyche of the dumbest guys on the field. Befriend the ump. Take no credit for a win.

quote:

Originally posted by RedSoxFan21:
PS A catcher plays every day, sometimes twice a day. No four day rests for him even though he probably throws more than ANYONE on the field. Oh yeah, while squatting. Get down the line. Block a steam train. Then remember what to do after blocking steam train. Chuck a laser to 2nd. Lead the team. Know the situation. Call the pitches (ok, depends on the coach). Manage the psyche of the dumbest guys on the field. Befriend the ump. Take no credit for a win.

I don't think there's anyone who knows a shred about baseball understands the catcher is the most difficult and demanding position. I won't justify the catcher's spot since you already covered it. I'm under the assumption the OP is about the other seven positions in the field since the P & C are the two who have the ball most of the time on the field.

If you lump together the other 7 positions, then it really comes down to what players are best at and where they profile based on certain skills and athleticism. I don't think any one of those other seven positions are any more difficult than the other. They all have different job functions but are of equal importance because any one of those positions have a breakdown, it can equally cost the team giving away outs. It all comes down to where the player is best suited to play.

Anybody who thinks blocking pitches doesn't require athleticism has never tried to block a pitch. I'll admit that backing up first is more about hustle than speed but you'll want that speed when the ball kicks away at first due to a wild throw or a whiff on a pick.

I'm glad can-o-corn mentioned quickness because that requires more athleticism than just pure speed. Remember when the Oakland / LA Raiders were running olympic sprinters out on the field as wide receivers way back when? That was a colossal failure due to the fact they were just fast and had no athleticism / skills. One thing about a catcher's speed is that at one point they probably were above average in terms of speed but the squatting / abuse took it away.

I was a catcher (in case you haven't guessed yet ) and I also played many games at first. One game at catcher is about like playing three games at first. If you're not athletic that wear and tear will take away your skills / ability to play.

Taking away the catcher position and just looking at the rest of the field I think CF should be more athletic than the SS.

quote:

Originally posted by coach2709:
Anybody who thinks blocking pitches doesn't require athleticism has never tried to block a pitch. I'll admit that backing up first is more about hustle than speed but you'll want that speed when the ball kicks away at first due to a wild throw or a whiff on a pick.

I'm glad can-o-corn mentioned quickness because that requires more athleticism than just pure speed. Remember when the Oakland / LA Raiders were running olympic sprinters out on the field as wide receivers way back when? That was a colossal failure due to the fact they were just fast and had no athleticism / skills. One thing about a catcher's speed is that at one point they probably were above average in terms of speed but the squatting / abuse took it away.

I was a catcher (in case you haven't guessed yet ) and I also played many games at first. One game at catcher is about like playing three games at first. If you're not athletic that wear and tear will take away your skills / ability to play.

Taking away the catcher position and just looking at the rest of the field I think CF should be more athletic than the SS.

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Catchers need to be athletic, they are just not as athletic as your SS.

BTW, I was a pitcher and everyone knows we are the most athletic on the diamond.

HaHaHaHaHaHa....

So who did you look most like, Standball? ...

David Wells, Mickey Lolich, Fernando Valenzuela, CC Sabathia, Bobby Jenks, Bartolo Colon, Rich Garces, Babe Ruth?

quote:

Originally posted by wraggArm:

quote:

Originally posted by bsbl247:
Let's face it, there aren't many Johnny Bench's, Mike Piazza's, and Ivan Rodriguez's out on the diamond. Buster Posey may be moved to another position when he returns from injury?

Doesn't that kind of demonstrate the opposite of your argument ?

Absolutely not. I was simply making the point that catchers are not necessarily expected to hit. Sub .250 averages are the norm on the majority of rosters in MLB. Hitting should be included in the equation too, IMHO. If we're going to make this argument Defense Only...then I'll go with catcher.

quote:

Originally posted by cabbagedad:
HaHaHaHaHaHa....

So who did you look most like, Standball? ...

David Wells, Mickey Lolich, Fernando Valenzuela, CC Sabathia, Bobby Jenks, Bartolo Colon, Rich Garces, Babe Ruth?

something like this

Read what it says about catchers

“What we look for” Recruiting Guidelines
A parent / player general guide to evaluation standards for professional baseball draft candidates, and college baseball standards.

http://www.pitchandhitclub.org...What_We_Look_For.pdf

Who is the author of the pdf?

quote:

Originally posted by cball:
I'll throw my top four out there:
SS
CF
2B
C
I know catcher is the toughest grind and most phyically demanding but I'm refering to what tools it takes to play the positions well and at a high level.
Also what do you think is the most difficult play to pull off?
Running bare hand do or die by the SS or 3B or maybe the homerun robbing OF play where ball is literally caught over the fence and brought back in.

After reading through the thread I think you had it about right from the get go..

Remember the early days of Rec/LL Coaching where you have 15 players the first day of practice. Even if you drafted them you still kind of start with who are my best athletes, who have the strongest arm and then you begin where? With up the middle defense. Since the Catcher is behind the hitter, I'm starting with my middle-infielders, center fielder, then catcher.

The most "tooled" player generally plays shortstop. Even on sons College team, Coaches are **** about their middle-infield combination, Center and then catcher.

You need em all, but holes in the middle, on the ball side, kill you. I can play with a good, but not great catcher, especially if I have great pitching and middle defense. Try playing with average up the middle players with a good pitching staff (or worse yet, average to bad staff).

Along those lines, I think the most difficult plays are made at short and he should, on average, have the most opportunities to make assists for the team based on right-handed dominant hitting and his position on the field. Yes, the catcher is involved in every play but he's fielding a thrown ball, big difference from a batted ball.

Well said Prime9

Son is a pitcher - but I think the most difficult position is catcher. SS is the most glamorous - Jeter making those made for TV plays - wow wee - while Posada ground his knees to dust.... Catcher is the most difficult.

The bottom line is each position is unique and takes a different skill set. SS may be most "athletic" - CF most fleet of foot, 1B may have the highest batting average... You can't put 9 like-players on the field and win. You really can't compare. Even though it's a lot of fun to do so!

quote:

Yes, the catcher is involved in every play but he's fielding a thrown ball, big difference from a batted ball.

Hmmm, I see catchers field bunts and pop ups. Catching foul tips for 3rd outs.

We will just agree to disagree - the two positions are very different. I've seen an average catcher be an excellent SS, and I'm sure the reverse has been true as well.

quote:

Originally posted by twotex:

quote:

Yes, the catcher is involved in every play but he's fielding a thrown ball, big difference from a batted ball.

Hmmm, I see catchers field bunts and pop ups. Catching foul tips for 3rd outs.

We will just agree to disagree - the two positions are very different. I've seen an average catcher be an excellent SS, and I'm sure the reverse has been true as well.

partly agree in that a shortstop (such as Posey) can catch. A catcher that moved to shortstop???? Foul balls and pop-ups aren't exactly taxing for a defensive player.

quote:

if a ss misses a ball, there is a backup from an outfielder, if a catcher misses a ball he is on his own, no one to back him up, yes, a pitcher may come in and cover at home if he remembers, but there is no one behind him

true but do that too often and they will move you to the outfield.

I think it's difficult to compare catcher to any other position. But the question almost answers itself if you observe that the SS position demands your best overall athltete who also posseses the finest defensive tools package.

This debate pops up every so often at HSBBW. Usually ends up with those who have sons that are catchers being the most passionite.

I can go with catcher being the toughest or hardest position. Defenitely takes a special skill set.

Centerfield also takes a special skill set, but even outfielders that play all three OF positions will say CF is the easiest to react to the ball off the bat. Obviously the major skill is to be able to cover a lot of ground.

Shortstop has to have the most over all talent. Many young shortstops are moved out, can't think of many outfielders who move in at a high level.

Pitching is the most demanding if not important position in any one game. Everyone else can, and often, does play their position every day. As we all know, pitching is way to physically demanding to do that. And despite the rest and recovery, 75% of all roster removing injuries are suffered by pitchers.

In all of MLB history there has been only one player that has played any extended time at three up the middle positions. He played catcher, 2nd baseman and centerfield. He also played other positions, but never was a shortstop. BTW, he will be a certain Hall of Famer... Craig Biggio!

Can anyone name a catcher that has become a MLB shortstop? On the other hand, there are 100s of former shortstops playing other positions in MLB. Whether that makes it the most difficult or not I don't know. But it's plenty of reason to think shortstops have the most over all defensive talent.

The hardest thing to find in scouting the USA... A high school shortstop that is a true MLB shortstop prospect. Nearly all the top high school shortstops profile better at a different position.

Pitcher, catcher, outfield, prospects are all over the country. Players capable of staying at and playing shortstop in the Major Leagues are extremely rare.

quote:

Originally posted by PGStaff:
The hardest thing to find in scouting the USA... A high school shortstop that is a true MLB shortstop prospect. Nearly all the top high school shortstops profile better at a different position.

Pitcher, catcher, outfield, prospects are all over the country. Players capable of staying at and playing shortstop in the Major Leagues are extremely rare.

I'll drink to that! To play at the major league level, the player that is excellent at this position, won't move forward unless he can hit. I've never seen it one way or the other (have any of you).

I'd say between Standball's PDF, PG's perspective and all the catcher love, the "difficult position" argument has been firmly nailed. How 'bout that "most difficult play"?

quote:

Blocking does not take that much athleticism, its a reactionary response with good technique and most players can do it given the right instructions and practice.

I totally disagree with this. It takes quickness and mobility combined with split second judgment. Sounds like athleticism to me.

"The hardest thing to find in scouting the USA... A high school shortstop that is a true MLB shortstop prospect. Nearly all the top high school shortstops profile better at a different position."

Interesting statement PG.

Makes you think.

quote:

Originally posted by Rob Kremer:

quote:

Blocking does not take that much athleticism, its a reactionary response with good technique and most players can do it given the right instructions and practice.

I totally disagree with this. It takes quickness and mobility combined with split second judgment. Sounds like athleticism to me.

Read what I wrote "does not take that much", how much is debatable. Never said it takes no athleticism.

One other thought to this thread: It's easy to see the grind the catcher goes through during a game. It may be hot, he may get hit with the ball, and he may even get "runned over"

But at SS and the kind of players that play the position they tend to make it look far easier than it really is.

cball a good catcher makes the job look much easier than it is as well.

A good cf makes the job look much easier. The better you are the easier you make it look.

This summer my team had a shut-down catcher that allowed us to schedule "up". A great ss is always nice, but let's face it the catcher is your stopper like a goalie in hockey...
Everyone is important sure but the catcher is your glue.

quote:

Originally posted by PGStaff:
Pitcher, catcher, outfield, prospects are all over the country. Players capable of staying at and playing shortstop in the Major Leagues are extremely rare.

That is an interesting statement, considering most MLB or MiLB active and 40-man rosters have 4-5(+) players capable of playing SS and only 2-3 catchers.

I'm guilty, my kid is a catcher..... Just sayin' GED10DaD

I do think that more players would give catching a try, and be very successful at it, but when teams carry only 2 it is usually the kids that have played it since at least 13-14. I do think the catching position can be learned if the player is willing to put in the time.

However, we find that there is little time to work on your hitting when you are a catcher because you are in the bullpen during most practices. You get the last position in the cage at the end of the practice, when your legs are gassed. I think that not having that hitting time along with the work required keeps players away from the position.

I was watching the Showtime "The Franchise" and I was rather amazed when they were interviewing Buster Posey about his injury...question was asked "When you have kids, will you let them play catcher?"...his reply was "No way." That kind of says a lot seeing that Buster could have played almost any position (except maybe CF), but he chose catcher out of necessity at FSU.

My understanding of Posey at FSU is that he didn't choose position (who does at that level?) but rather Martin put him there at the suggestion by an MLB scout.

If the OP was about which position has the most cult like following I'd know the answer to that one too.

GED10,
I think the reason they have so many SS's is that they can play everywhere in an emergency. Catchers can play...

quote:

Originally posted by GunEmDown10:
That is an interesting statement, considering most MLB or MiLB active and 40-man rosters have 4-5(+) players capable of playing SS and only 2-3 catchers.

I'm guilty, my kid is a catcher..... Just sayin' GED10DaD

They may be capable for one game while the ss has a day off (rarely) but not too many are truely outstanding at the highest level, the game is just too fast.

Think about who is the regular starting ss everyday on teams. There aren't too Jeters many out there.

How many HOF ss are there?

The fact that many players are drafted as SS's later to be converted to catcher, where as players drafted as catchers are never converted to SS's should tell you something. It tells you that players drafted as SS's but are later converted to catcher aren't quite good enough to play SS in MLB but, might have enough tools to catch. Sorry

quote:

Originally posted by TPM:

quote:

Originally posted by GunEmDown10:
That is an interesting statement, considering most MLB or MiLB active and 40-man rosters have 4-5(+) players capable of playing SS and only 2-3 catchers.

I'm guilty, my kid is a catcher..... Just sayin' GED10DaD

They may be capable for one game while the ss has a day off (rarely) but not too many are truely outstanding at the highest level, the game is just too fast.

Think about who is the regular starting ss everyday on teams. There aren't too Jeters many out there.

How many HOF ss are there?

According to baseball almanac.com there are 70 pitchers in the HOF but I think we will all agree that number is skewed due to the number of pitchers compared to rest of the field.

Second are the CF's with 25
Third are the SS's with 23
Fourth are the 1B, RF, LF with 21 each
Fifth are the 2B with 18
Sixth are the C with 16
Seventh are the 3B with 13
Eighth are the DH with 1

Pretty interesting information once you break it down. I'm still saying catcher because I'm stubborn LOL.

I never realized how few people are in the HOF. Is it really only 191?

Reverse Warrior


THE KIDS TODAY DON'T DO ENOUGH YOGA!!!!

quote:

Originally posted by coach2709:

quote:

Originally posted by TPM:

quote:

Originally posted by GunEmDown10:
That is an interesting statement, considering most MLB or MiLB active and 40-man rosters have 4-5(+) players capable of playing SS and only 2-3 catchers.

I'm guilty, my kid is a catcher..... Just sayin' GED10DaD

They may be capable for one game while the ss has a day off (rarely) but not too many are truely outstanding at the highest level, the game is just too fast.

Think about who is the regular starting ss everyday on teams. There aren't too Jeters many out there.

How many HOF ss are there?

According to baseball almanac.com there are 70 pitchers in the HOF but I think we will all agree that number is skewed due to the number of pitchers compared to rest of the field.

Second are the CF's with 25
Third are the SS's with 23
Fourth are the 1B, RF, LF with 21 each
Fifth are the 2B with 18
Sixth are the C with 16
Seventh are the 3B with 13
Eighth are the DH with 1

Pretty interesting information once you break it down. I'm still saying catcher because I'm stubborn LOL.

Thanks for that info, I didn't think that there would be so many ss. I agree with you on catcher, but I took that out of the consideration.

FWIW, in milb the ss usually convert to 2B.

With one DH in the HOF, sounds to me like THAT might be the most difficult position of all!

quote:

Originally posted by Doughnutman:
I never realized how few people are in the HOF. Is it really only 191?

It would be 192 if they had any brains (Pete Rose)

IMO...

If looking for the most athletic players the vast majority will be playing SS or OF.

If looking for the top prospects, you will find more of them on the mound.

The very best prospect could be playing any position.

Of all the positions the hardest to find is a future top MLB SS in the USA! It's not that they don't exist, there are many of them, but there are more true prospects at every other position. On the other hand, you will see a larger number of these middle infield types in Latin American countries.

Obviously there are some USA born SS who are among the best... (Jeter, Rollins, Tulowitzki, etc) But the majority of MLB starting shortstops are not from the USA.

Just the opposite is the case when it comes to starting catchers. The majority of catchers were born in the USA. In fact, the majority at every position other than SS was born in the USA.

Anyway, an arguement could be made for several positions depending what the question is.

Most difficult position?
Most important position?
Most talented position?
Most athletic position?

There could be a different opinion based on those questions. Maybe some would answer those questions like this...

Catcher
Pitcher
Shortstop
Centerfield

We see thousands of players every year. Good shortstops always standout, but most of them profile better at a different position. We've seen shortstops that profile at every other position, including many as a catcher or a pitcher. The tools and other abilities dictate the position.

Good catchers also standout, but almost always profile as catchers. Once in awhile a catcher who can really hit ends up profiling better at 1st base or even the outfield. But I can't think of one single case where a prospect catcher profiled as a shortstop.

I don't know if this is true or not, but I've heard that most MLB catchers started as shortstops when they were young. I can believe that.

Truth is, all positions are important. Defense has become secondary to hitting. The top hitters are drafted before the top fielders. Adrian Gonzales was picked #1 over all as a 1st baseman. Joe Mauer #1 over all as a catcher. The Upton's (Justin #1 over all, BJ #2 overall) were both shortstops and now OFs. Jason Heyward was drafted as a RF and so was Bryce Harper who was a catcher. (BTW, Harper started as a shortstop)

Even the shortstops and catchers draft status is based on hitting first, defense second.

Sorry for the length of this post. Just felt like BSing a bit this morning.