Cball - If your son's goal is to find a spot on a team at the next level, then first and formost will be his ability to throw strikes and have an off speed pitch to keep hitter off balance.
Mid 80's with control or command with an offspeed will get you a spot on many mid to smaller D-1 or D-2 teams, as well as D-3.
Good luck!
quote:Originally posted by bsbl247:
cball,
You're right. Velocity isn't necessary the King on a HS Diamond...Throwing strikes and getting outs is. But, if a coach has two pitchers that have all the other traits that I listed earlier, who is he going to put on the bump in crunch time?
We don't see too many high school coaches that carry around radar guns? However, look into the stands during the game (high school, legion, or travel), and if a good prospect is on the mound...every scout, coach, recruiting coordinator will have their Guns pointed directly towards the middle of the diamond. They're checking FB velocity first and foremost, followed by his secondary pitches. That's life, whether it's fair or not?
I was in Arizona with my son at the Fall Classic in October. He had just completed his game and we were watching his friends team play on another field. This was a scout ball team that was running kids out on the bump throwing high 80's to low 90's, and there was about a dozen scouts/coaches behind home plate with their guns......then a little stirring and commotion occurred, and all the scouts scattered to another field across the way! Why? A young skinny lefty was throwing on another field and sitting 93-94, and running his FB up to 96 on a Stalker a couple times!? So, Field Four had some very good pitchers and a couple scouts hung around to watch...Yet, Field Five had this young man throwing serious Gas and 30-40 scouts/coaches decided that's where they wanted to be, so in this case...VELOCITY IS KING!
Yeah those kind of pitchers are certainly fun to watch. Don't get me wrong about thinking it's not very important. In fact working with my own son it's one of the primary things we work on. Every pitcher wants more of it. No doubt.
.
Well said. Much success to your son!
.
- "One other thing D1 is not a goal of ours. A good school where he could play baseball is quite enough no matter what the classification."
Well said. Much success to your son!
.
Mid to upper 80s is the norm for D1 pitchers. The Friday starters, etc. tend to throw a bit harder but there are Friday starters with great movement/control/junk who throw mid 80s or less. Be careful in that just like higher levels of ball starters especially tend to throw at the velocity they are most effective at and pitchers who can touch low 90s will pitch mid to upper 80s.
I've seen a barely low 80s lefty sign D1 so it can happen, it is just rare. BTW, the kid was only moderately effective as a HS senior due to lack of velocity despite some big time pitchability.
Back to the original question, talent comes first and once the talent is there then mental toughness is a big factor. However, the ability to dial up 95 mph down the middle or not at the college level does wonders for one's mental toughness. In other words, what is often interpreted as lack of mental toughness is often lack of control. If a pitcher has marginal control they are going to be on one day and off another regardless of how mentally tough they are. A pitcher who has excellent control will bring the same game almost every outing and will tend to be seen as mentally tough. Hanging in there on an off day for a pitcher with excellent control can happen because they still have control if not command on an off day, while a pitcher who has marginal control is simply not going to be able to throw strikes when their control is off no matter how mentally tough.
There are of course pitchers who let situations get to them and that kind of mental toughness or lack thereof is important but a pitcher who lacks that kind of mental toughness can still be a useful part of a pitching staff as long as they have good stuff when used in the right situations, i.e. long relief.
I've seen a barely low 80s lefty sign D1 so it can happen, it is just rare. BTW, the kid was only moderately effective as a HS senior due to lack of velocity despite some big time pitchability.
Back to the original question, talent comes first and once the talent is there then mental toughness is a big factor. However, the ability to dial up 95 mph down the middle or not at the college level does wonders for one's mental toughness. In other words, what is often interpreted as lack of mental toughness is often lack of control. If a pitcher has marginal control they are going to be on one day and off another regardless of how mentally tough they are. A pitcher who has excellent control will bring the same game almost every outing and will tend to be seen as mentally tough. Hanging in there on an off day for a pitcher with excellent control can happen because they still have control if not command on an off day, while a pitcher who has marginal control is simply not going to be able to throw strikes when their control is off no matter how mentally tough.
There are of course pitchers who let situations get to them and that kind of mental toughness or lack thereof is important but a pitcher who lacks that kind of mental toughness can still be a useful part of a pitching staff as long as they have good stuff when used in the right situations, i.e. long relief.
FF. It's not really that hard, here is his bedroom while he is sleeping.
I really want to see this so please try reposting...it may provide the key to my sons future opportunities!
As a low-level ex-pitcher but the Dad of a hitter, perhaps I look at this a little differently.
My son and most good hitters can handle velocity all day long. In fact, they covet hard throwers! I have yet to see a fast ball my son has not been able to catch up with. The great ones (my son's not one of those) can hit anyones fastball.
Thus, the key in my book is movement and control. And by the way, I'm not sure that you can do an effective job of teaching either. If you could, everyone would have Maddux type movement on their pitches and his pin-point accuracy.
IMO; the ability to throw the baseball repeatedly, where you want to, is God given and can't be taught. Much like with a hitter, recognizing the strike zone. There are some that you can Coach until the Cows come home but can't affect. Thus, there are hitters that will NEVER be able to lay off or recognize pitches out of the zone (aka Jeff Francouer). JMO..
The "Cats Meow" would be to have all three; movement, control AND velocity .......an extremely rare cocktail...
My son and most good hitters can handle velocity all day long. In fact, they covet hard throwers! I have yet to see a fast ball my son has not been able to catch up with. The great ones (my son's not one of those) can hit anyones fastball.
Thus, the key in my book is movement and control. And by the way, I'm not sure that you can do an effective job of teaching either. If you could, everyone would have Maddux type movement on their pitches and his pin-point accuracy.
IMO; the ability to throw the baseball repeatedly, where you want to, is God given and can't be taught. Much like with a hitter, recognizing the strike zone. There are some that you can Coach until the Cows come home but can't affect. Thus, there are hitters that will NEVER be able to lay off or recognize pitches out of the zone (aka Jeff Francouer). JMO..
The "Cats Meow" would be to have all three; movement, control AND velocity .......an extremely rare cocktail...
Refresh my memory. didn't Chapman throwing 100-105 get knocked out of the game by the Phillies before an inning was up?
Cliff Lee struggled early in his career due to relatively poor command averaging about 4bb/9innings his first 3 years in mlb. I find it hard to believe that his current ability to locate is "God given" and wasn't learned.
Maddux started out as a low 90s guy and learned to dial it back. If his peak was mid 80s he wouldn't have had the kind of control he did throwing mid 80s.
I hear all the time that hitters can hit anyone's fastball but I've seen relievers come in and throw nothing but high gas with great success. It may shock you but most of the guys who throw gas can also throw other pitches as well.
Nolan Ryan did pretty well for himself with nothing special in the way of control. I think it had something to do with the velocity.
Limited innings but Chapman had a 2.03 ERA for the Reds. I'd say he was pretty effective.
Maddux started out as a low 90s guy and learned to dial it back. If his peak was mid 80s he wouldn't have had the kind of control he did throwing mid 80s.
I hear all the time that hitters can hit anyone's fastball but I've seen relievers come in and throw nothing but high gas with great success. It may shock you but most of the guys who throw gas can also throw other pitches as well.
Nolan Ryan did pretty well for himself with nothing special in the way of control. I think it had something to do with the velocity.
Limited innings but Chapman had a 2.03 ERA for the Reds. I'd say he was pretty effective.
quote:Limited innings but Chapman had a 2.03 ERA for the Reds. I'd say he was pretty effective.
yep that's not too shabby.
unless he did that against the Astros
Upper 80s low 90's with command vs Low 80s to mid 80s with command. Which is better?
Why?
Why?
quote:Originally posted by Coach_May:
Upper 80s low 90's with command vs Low 80s to mid 80s with command. Which is better?
Why?
Better for getting signed somewhere or winning a baseball game? If it's winning there are some unknowns that could sway to the slower guy i.e. movement, deception, killer change, etc. But if it's to sign a letter or a contract then the higher speed wins if that's all you know about the two.
A key for both of these pitchers is an effective off speed pitch to keep the hitters timing off.
quote:Originally posted by CADad:
(Cliff Lee struggled early in his career due to relatively poor command averaging about 4bb/9innings his first 3 years in mlb. I find it hard to believe that his current ability to locate is "God given" and wasn't learned.)
You are right, his ability to locate was learned (apparently he was a slow learner). Lee, Koufax and Johnson are/were lefties that had both movement and velocity early on. However, their success came when they learned two other important components of pitching success; throw pitches that are in or close to the strike zone, and developed another pitch other than the fastball that they could throw for strikes.
(Maddux started out as a low 90s guy and learned to dial it back. If his peak was mid 80s he wouldn't have had the kind of control he did throwing mid 80s.)
To my point, (thanks for making it for me) Maddux became successful when he began to favor movement over velocity.
(I hear all the time that hitters can hit anyone's fastball but I've seen relievers come in and throw nothing but high gas with great success. It may shock you but most of the guys who throw gas can also throw other pitches as well.)
Ok, who is this super succesful "closer" (I thought we talking about pitchers, STARTERS) that doesn't have a great secondary pitch. High gas is successful against guys who can't lay off or don't know the strike zone. ALL good hitters will hit a steady diet of fastballs. Seeing 95+ for one at bat after 3-ab's against mid-80's and smurf balls, makes velocity most desirable for a set up man or closer. However, if they see him more than once and he doesn't have a secondary, off-speed pitch that he can throw in the strike zone, he will be TOAST!
(Nolan Ryan did pretty well for himself with nothing special in the way of control. I think it had something to do with the velocity.)
Yea, I would say he too had the big two to start with, movement and velocity. And went on to throw 7 no-no's when he developed his breaking ball and got them in the vicinity of home plate.
(Limited innings but Chapman had a 2.03 ERA for the Reds. I'd say he was pretty effective.
Again, a closer. See TOAST comment above. He does have a tremedous slider when he can get it over. Velocity is more of an attribute for a closer than a Starter.
I'm not confusing pin-point control (hitting a knats *** at 60'6") which I maintain you cannot teach, for the learned skill of throwing a pitch in that 17" wide dish (is that the right size?) from the knees to just under the letters (ha, ha).
Any of the examples you throw out there became successful with an arsenal that included much more than a dominating fastball and only after they learned command.
I've know hundreds of players that don't have the ability to throw the ball to the chest consistently when warming up, even after playing over 10-15 years. They have lots of skills but not the ability to throw a ball precisely. While others can throw to that circle around the glove almost with their eyes closed at extreme distances. They honed the skill but the ability was god-given. I've had the same experience working with hitters, some just can't get a handle on recognizing pitches, within the milli-seconds allowed, as being for sure strikes or balls.
Recommend reading "Throwing Heat" by Nolan Ryan
quote:Originally posted by Coach_May:
Upper 80s low 90's with command vs Low 80s to mid 80s with command. Which is better?
PG has stated that velocity is important to those that have it and obvioulsy not important for those who don't have it. He's correct. Whether having it or not being of importance will always be argued.
All of the traits mentioned above will get one noticed, they are all important and for some the importance comes in different order. The more traits you have the more it will help to make you a better pitcher.
IMO, there is a huge difference between good pitchers and excellent pitchers. There is something that sets them apart from others, and it doesn't necessarily fall under the trait of mental toughness.
It is the ability to view and react to each outing as the same, in other words to repeat what they did on the mound, over and over and over and over. Think Rivera. He does the same thing over and over whether it's in Boston, in NY, in Tampa, in the cold in the heat, in a regular game or playoffs. Yes, sometimes he might be off, but he is doing the same thing he did the last game and the game before that.
This is a very, very hard trait to master for most, but when one does, it becomes the most important, no matter what the other traits they posses.
quote:Originally posted by cball:
I think you can pluck just about any player that's made as far as HS out of the field and train him to pitch at a reasonable level.
Perhaps you can but they might not be considered a pitcher and there are certain traits you cannot train, no matter how hard one tries.
Whenever you compare an amateur athlete to a successful pro on the basis of an attribute the pro appears to lack, you run the risk of committing a logical fallacy that becomes apparent when you write out what you're really saying.
Greg Maddux doesn't throw hard.
Greg Maddux is an excellent pitcher.
I don't throw hard.
Therefore, I can be an excellent pitcher.
There's more to the equation.
When I played football, every receiver who wasn't fast enough to play at the next level used to compare himself to Fred Biletnikoff. They conveniently overlooked the fact that a) Biletnikoff wasn't actually slow--he was just slower than most all-pro wide receivers, and b) he made up for his comparative lack of speed with an extremely rare combination of other attributes--precise routes, great hands, toughness, outstanding football IQ, etc.
Same thing with short quarterbacks and Doug Flutie. Doug Flutie's success doesn't establish that 5'9" guys can realistically aspire to play quarterback in the NFL. It proves that only the most extraordinarily rare combination of skill, character, determination, and athletic ability makes it possible for a 5'9" guy to play QB in the NFL.
Here's a conversation I never expect to overhear:
Dad #1: "That kid reminds me of Greg Maddux."
Dad #2: "You mean because he doesn't throw hard but still gets guys out?"
Dad #1: "Not really. Well maybe partly, because I know he can throw a lot harder than he does; but mostly I'm impressed because this kid is the most intelligent, most intensely competitive, best all-around athlete, and best defensive pitcher I've ever seen in this county."
Greg Maddux doesn't throw hard.
Greg Maddux is an excellent pitcher.
I don't throw hard.
Therefore, I can be an excellent pitcher.
There's more to the equation.
When I played football, every receiver who wasn't fast enough to play at the next level used to compare himself to Fred Biletnikoff. They conveniently overlooked the fact that a) Biletnikoff wasn't actually slow--he was just slower than most all-pro wide receivers, and b) he made up for his comparative lack of speed with an extremely rare combination of other attributes--precise routes, great hands, toughness, outstanding football IQ, etc.
Same thing with short quarterbacks and Doug Flutie. Doug Flutie's success doesn't establish that 5'9" guys can realistically aspire to play quarterback in the NFL. It proves that only the most extraordinarily rare combination of skill, character, determination, and athletic ability makes it possible for a 5'9" guy to play QB in the NFL.
Here's a conversation I never expect to overhear:
Dad #1: "That kid reminds me of Greg Maddux."
Dad #2: "You mean because he doesn't throw hard but still gets guys out?"
Dad #1: "Not really. Well maybe partly, because I know he can throw a lot harder than he does; but mostly I'm impressed because this kid is the most intelligent, most intensely competitive, best all-around athlete, and best defensive pitcher I've ever seen in this county."
People shouldn't compare because what's in the head is completely different than what is on the outside.
Does anyone think that if Maddox was pitching a WS game his approach would be any different than if if were not? Absolutely not. That's because he has trained to prepare himself the same each game. Mental training revolves around physical training he did during in season, which probably was the SAME thing each and every day, it was the SAME thing no matter what the circumstances of the game. Want to know why teams had him hanging around, so that others could learn from observing what HE did that was different than what anyone else did.
If you ask young players who go to spring training what they come away with, it is that the high priced pitchers all do THE SAME THING. That is essentially doing the same thing each and every day.
I wish son could have observed this trait way before the pro level, he's learning it's a very special trait to have. You learn a lot by observing, of course you got to have those great guys in front of you each and every day to be able to observe this and learn from it.
There also is very little analyzing what you did and didn't do each game, there is no reason why a pitcher with the experience of Maddox needs to think about what he did or didn't do, it just may have been a bad day at the office (happens). It's over that night, that day, big problem with pitchers is that they take it with them (having a short memory is a good trait).
Does anyone think that if Maddox was pitching a WS game his approach would be any different than if if were not? Absolutely not. That's because he has trained to prepare himself the same each game. Mental training revolves around physical training he did during in season, which probably was the SAME thing each and every day, it was the SAME thing no matter what the circumstances of the game. Want to know why teams had him hanging around, so that others could learn from observing what HE did that was different than what anyone else did.
If you ask young players who go to spring training what they come away with, it is that the high priced pitchers all do THE SAME THING. That is essentially doing the same thing each and every day.
I wish son could have observed this trait way before the pro level, he's learning it's a very special trait to have. You learn a lot by observing, of course you got to have those great guys in front of you each and every day to be able to observe this and learn from it.
There also is very little analyzing what you did and didn't do each game, there is no reason why a pitcher with the experience of Maddox needs to think about what he did or didn't do, it just may have been a bad day at the office (happens). It's over that night, that day, big problem with pitchers is that they take it with them (having a short memory is a good trait).
Important trait?
A Poker face.
A Poker face.
.
True!
.
True!
.
TPM,
Sounds like having a mild case of OCD is a pitchers best friend.
But I agree, when my son has his mechanics down he is amazing. The problem is that he doesn't have it down very often.
Sounds like having a mild case of OCD is a pitchers best friend.
But I agree, when my son has his mechanics down he is amazing. The problem is that he doesn't have it down very often.
Swagger.
I'm really not sure what the "best trait" is but just watching a pitcher quickly reveals what he has or doesn't have.
There are traits that cannot be measured. I have to share a story.... and maybe pull out the old tarnished horn and toot it one more time...
My son was a P/C in HS. Went to Auburn University as a catcher. As a freshman he was catching a weekday game against then #1 Georgia Tech and I was watching the game on TV. Auburn had GT down in the middle of the 9th. Auburn had the #1 closer in the nation at the time in Steven Register. As GT was coming to bat the announcers were dumbfounded when my son took the mound for the first time as a college player to close out the game. He strikes out the first 2 and then has 1st rounder Matt Murton behind 0-2 and tries to blow a FB by him..... Murton jacks a HR. Next player grounds out ... Auburn wins.
In the TV post game interview with the Auburn coach they asked WHY in the world would he pull my son from behind the plate and let him close the game when Auburn had the #1 closer in the nation. The coach replied "He was begging for the ball"....
So DESIRE and CONFIDENCE have to factor in there somewhere...
Fungo
There are traits that cannot be measured. I have to share a story.... and maybe pull out the old tarnished horn and toot it one more time...
My son was a P/C in HS. Went to Auburn University as a catcher. As a freshman he was catching a weekday game against then #1 Georgia Tech and I was watching the game on TV. Auburn had GT down in the middle of the 9th. Auburn had the #1 closer in the nation at the time in Steven Register. As GT was coming to bat the announcers were dumbfounded when my son took the mound for the first time as a college player to close out the game. He strikes out the first 2 and then has 1st rounder Matt Murton behind 0-2 and tries to blow a FB by him..... Murton jacks a HR. Next player grounds out ... Auburn wins.
In the TV post game interview with the Auburn coach they asked WHY in the world would he pull my son from behind the plate and let him close the game when Auburn had the #1 closer in the nation. The coach replied "He was begging for the ball"....
So DESIRE and CONFIDENCE have to factor in there somewhere...
Fungo
Fungo and Prepster nailed this one in my opinion.
If you never saw Prepster's son pitch, you missed something. He battled. He went after hitters.
I never got to see Fungo's son pitch but it sounds the same.
Give me the kid who wants the ball. Is willing to stand on the bump with the the whole world looking at him. Who even after getting hammered, can't wait for his next outing. That is my guy. After that his God given ability and work effort will determine how far he goes.
If you never saw Prepster's son pitch, you missed something. He battled. He went after hitters.
I never got to see Fungo's son pitch but it sounds the same.
Give me the kid who wants the ball. Is willing to stand on the bump with the the whole world looking at him. Who even after getting hammered, can't wait for his next outing. That is my guy. After that his God given ability and work effort will determine how far he goes.
Fungo, you're story lit my fire this morning and made me smile. I LOVED that story.
Thanks for sharing it.
YGD
Thanks for sharing it.
YGD
Most Important trait?
a short memory.
a short memory.
.
.
.
quote:Originally posted by cball:
You know I'm talking about the HS-college level. Not MLB HOF. Pitching aint rocket science, it's a craft that can be learned. Take an outfielder with an good HS arm or a SS you can teach that player to pitch no matter what state you happen you find yourself in.
I haven't read the whole thread yet so I'm not sure what responses this comment has drawn. I'd say you are mistaken if you think you can take a HS kid who has not pitched, and with a "good HS arm teach them how to pitch". Sure it can be done, but not with much statistical success. Now I'm sure there are exceptions, but by and large you need very good repeatable mechanics to be able to pitch successfully at a higher level. Even with intense training, it is not as easy as it sounds. Furthermore, once you get the physical part working, the mental side is very important as well. Some kids shrink in pressure situations regardless of how hard they can throw. I'd much rather have a kid who pounded the strike zone and was mentally tough throwing in the mid 80's, than a kid who could pitch in the 90's with little control and that would walk kids that were disciplined hitters.
Just as it takes years to develop the skills to play a position, so to does that apply to pitching. Not everyone is wired to pitch, and I've seen many a stud kid in the field be called to the mound, and they were a completely different player. The field player was a confident team leader just dying to compete, then they become a shrinking violet on the mound.
Heck recently I was at a mid D1 watching a kid in the bullpen who looked very good. He had a loose 3/4 arm action, repeatable mechanics, and had touched 92. The coach told me he was a football player at the school (2nd or 3rd string QB with a rocket arm) trying to make it as a pitcher. However whenever the kid took the mound in a real game, he fell apart. Needless to say the coach did not have high hopes he would make the spring roster.
As to the OP's question, I'd say mental makeup should be higher on the list, especially above conditioning. You can build a body with proper nutrition and training, but you cannot typically rewire a kids mental makeup to be a pitcher for the higher levels.
So a loose arm action with solid repeatable mechanics would be #1, followed by mental strength. The conditioning is of course important because even with good mechanics, it is only repeatable if the body is in condition to do it over and over again throughout the game.
Also if you are trying to discern which physical aspect is more important (core, legs, etc.), don't leave out the decelerators such as the back and triceps. That is what I am going through with my son as we speak because it is a weak area of his.
Thanks very much, deldad. I think he jumps on here occasionally to read certain boards; and, when he does, I'm sure your comment will mean a lot to him.
Since leaving my earlier post on this thread, I've wanted to loop back and add that "extraordinary determination to succeed" presumes at least a couple of important things:
(1) that the player has sufficient innate athletic ability to work himself into becoming a successful pitcher;
(2) that "determination to succeed" translates into a hundred different aspects; some physical and some mental.
Many of those aspects relate to the myriad day-to-day physical activities that it takes to constantly improve; nuts-and-bolts stuff like daily conditioning, working with capable coaches, practicing every day with a purpose, etc.
In addition, that determination needs to translate into mental qualities like (1) the confidence that he can get any batter out at any time, (2) the learned ability to put every pitch (good and bad) behind him; concentrating only on the next pitch, and (3) wanting the ball no matter the circumstance.
If an athletic player will show consistent determination to succeed, he'll grow and develop as he progresses in the game. Who knows how far that will take him? However, one thing's for certain: He'll conclude the playing part of his journey in the game with the peace of mind that he did the best he could. There's an awful lot to be said for that.
Since leaving my earlier post on this thread, I've wanted to loop back and add that "extraordinary determination to succeed" presumes at least a couple of important things:
(1) that the player has sufficient innate athletic ability to work himself into becoming a successful pitcher;
(2) that "determination to succeed" translates into a hundred different aspects; some physical and some mental.
Many of those aspects relate to the myriad day-to-day physical activities that it takes to constantly improve; nuts-and-bolts stuff like daily conditioning, working with capable coaches, practicing every day with a purpose, etc.
In addition, that determination needs to translate into mental qualities like (1) the confidence that he can get any batter out at any time, (2) the learned ability to put every pitch (good and bad) behind him; concentrating only on the next pitch, and (3) wanting the ball no matter the circumstance.
If an athletic player will show consistent determination to succeed, he'll grow and develop as he progresses in the game. Who knows how far that will take him? However, one thing's for certain: He'll conclude the playing part of his journey in the game with the peace of mind that he did the best he could. There's an awful lot to be said for that.
Most important trait of a pitcher? Answer: what's going on from the neck up.
Fungo,
I love that story. The part that is perhaps most amazing to me is this:
Fun to read.
Julie
I love that story. The part that is perhaps most amazing to me is this:
quote:As a freshman
Fun to read.
Julie
Good story Fungo.
I am sticking with the most important trait of a pitcher being able to repeat, consistantly, a good performance.
I am sticking with the most important trait of a pitcher being able to repeat, consistantly, a good performance.
A comfortable seat in the pen?
A shaving cream commercial?
A Burger King commercial?
A shaving cream commercial?
A Burger King commercial?