Does order of appeal matter? Situation: R1 on first and R2 on second, 1 out. Batter hits home run. R2 scores, R1 scores but misses third. Batter-runner misses first. Defense appeals runner missing base a) first base first, then third base, or b) third base first, then first base. 1 run would score in (a) but in (b) would the out at first be considered a force out (as the third out) and thus NO runs would score?
Do the answers change whether the hit is a home run or a double?
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Does order of appeal matter? Situation: R1 on first and R2 on second, 1 out. Batter hits home run. R2 scores, R1 scores but misses third. Batter-runner misses first. Defense appeals runner missing base a) first base first, then third base, or b) third base first, then first base. 1 run would score in (a) but in (b) would the out at first be considered a force out (as the third out) and thus NO runs would score?
Do the answers change whether the hit is a home run or a double?
You are correct except for one small detail. There is never a force at 1st base. No runs would score because the batter/runner made the 3rd out before reaching 1st base.
Same result HR or double.
Does order of appeal matter? Situation: R1 on first and R2 on second, 1 out. Batter hits home run. R2 scores, R1 scores but misses third. Batter-runner misses first. Defense appeals runner missing base a) first base first, then third base, or b) third base first, then first base. 1 run would score in (a) but in (b) would the out at first be considered a force out (as the third out) and thus NO runs would score?
Do the answers change whether the hit is a home run or a double?
You are correct except for one small detail. There is never a force at 1st base. No runs would score because the batter/runner made the 3rd out before reaching 1st base.
Same result HR or double.
Thanks for the response. You are correct; there is a difference between a force out and a batter-runner not reaching first. I think we generally tend to think of an out at first as a force out (on a ground ball play, for instance) since the runner does not have to be tagged, but the rules book does make a distinction between the two. My apologies for misusing the terms.
No need for an apology. Thanks for a great question! It is important to know the definition of a force, especially when there is a retouch appeal, i.e. doubling-up a runner who was off his base when a fly ball was caught (which many think is a force play because either the base or the runner can be tagged for an out).
Here's a quiz for you:
R1, R2 one out. The batter homers. R1 misses 2nd and the B/R misses 1st. Does the order of appeals matter?
No need for an apology. Thanks for a great question! It is important to know the definition of a force, especially when there is a retouch appeal, i.e. doubling-up a runner who was off his base when a fly ball was caught (which many think is a force play because either the base or the runner can be tagged for an out).
Here's a quiz for you:
R1, R2 one out. The batter homers. R1 misses 2nd and the B/R misses 1st. Does the order of appeals matter?
These brainteasers are one of the reasons I got into umping in the first place, believe it or not. So, by extension of the original situation, my answer would be YES, the order does matter. Here is the thought process.
If 2nd base is appealed first, then first base for the third out, no runs score as the B/R never reached first base. If the miss at first base is appealed first, then the force on R1 is removed, and while the appeal at second is the third out, it is not a force out so R2's run counts. It would be the same if B/R passes R1 (he is declared out and the force is removed) and then R1 misses second. R1 would be out on appeal, but R2's run counts.
So, the next puzzler is this. Are runners obligated to take all the bases that they are awarded? Granted this would never happen, but R1 on first, batter hits HR, and R1 stops at second, forcing B/R to stop at first. Is there any rule prohibiting them from remaining there? (This could probably fall under the rule that the umpire would use his judgement should there be no rule covering a specific situation).
The appeal of R1 results in a force regardless of the order of appeals. Even though the B/R was appealed first, it is still a force play on R1 because he was forced at the time the base was missed. No runs score.
In your last situation, the ball is dead on the HR. I would tell them to get moving and touch their awarded bases or I would bang them out for abandonment. But like you said - this would never happen.
The appeal of R1 results in a force regardless of the order of appeals. Even though the B/R was appealed first, it is still a force play on R1 because he was forced at the time the base was missed. No runs score.
In your last situation, the ball is dead on the HR. I would tell them to get moving and touch their awarded bases or I would bang them out for abandonment. But like you said - this would never happen.
BUT, in the case of the B/R passing R1 between first and second, B/R is out and the CaseBook specifically says the force on R1 is off. See CasePlay 9.1.1L. The difference may is that the force was removed DURING the play (when B/R was declared out)?
The appeal of R1 results in a force regardless of the order of appeals. Even though the B/R was appealed first, it is still a force play on R1 because he was forced at the time the base was missed. No runs score.
In your last situation, the ball is dead on the HR. I would tell them to get moving and touch their awarded bases or I would bang them out for abandonment. But like you said - this would never happen.
BUT, in the case of the B/R passing R1 between first and second, B/R is out and the CaseBook specifically says the force on R1 is off. See CasePlay 9.1.1L. The difference may is that the force was removed DURING the play (when B/R was declared out)?
Correct. If the miss was while a force was in effect, it is a force on the appeal. If the force is removed before the miss, it is a time play.
The appeal of R1 results in a force regardless of the order of appeals. Even though the B/R was appealed first, it is still a force play on R1 because he was forced at the time the base was missed. No runs score.
In your last situation, the ball is dead on the HR. I would tell them to get moving and touch their awarded bases or I would bang them out for abandonment. But like you said - this would never happen.
BUT, in the case of the B/R passing R1 between first and second, B/R is out and the CaseBook specifically says the force on R1 is off. See CasePlay 9.1.1L. The difference may is that the force was removed DURING the play (when B/R was declared out)?
Correct. If the miss was while a force was in effect, it is a force on the appeal. If the force is removed before the miss, it is a time play.
Ok, thanks for the clarifications. I no doubt will come up with some other screwy situations, so keep a look out.
BUT, in the case of the B/R passing R1 between first and second, B/R is out and the CaseBook specifically says the force on R1 is off. See CasePlay 9.1.1L. The difference may is that the force was removed DURING the play (when B/R was declared out)?