Nature vs. Nurture

Nature does funny things--- the biggest boy at the same age is not always the hardest thrower

I have seen many a 5 ft 9 inch boy throw harder than a boy 6 ft 3 inches and 60 lbs heavier

Some arms and bodies are just not meant to throw in the high 80's-- if someone knew why they could make themselves a lot of money--perhaps that is why we have so many "pitching guru's" and associated web sites

Just my thoughts

I happen to agree with you...some have it and some don't...some can develop it and some can't...but I also know there are some that are just late bloomers...and, some have it and lose it you know, stud to dud...and some may have it and just don't have the desire to capitalize on it. Whatever the case you can bet no two are alike.
Fungo

I think TRhit nailed it on the head. When you get right down to basics, since throwing a ball over hand is such an un-natural human feat, you first need to have the correct muscular/skeletal build to even think about being a pitcher. When you've sifted out all genetic "freaks" you end up with the throwers. Now, you have to measure heart and mental toughness. After those attributes are factored in, the last intangible is size.

Fungo,

So many kids develop physically and athletically between the ages of 19 and 22. I have often wondered how many great ballplayers (or could have been)are lost due to late development. I see3 so many guys really develop after the age of 19 athletically. It just makes me wonder.

So true BigHit. The old cliche, timing is everthing holds so true.

Very true about late developers!

That is why we see so many small college players drafted each year. Also many players develop a lot in Juco programs. Late Bloomers are only lost if they give up the game too soon.

One thing that is over looked (not often by scouts) is blood lines. While there are no proven formulas, it is odd that so many great arms come from families with strong arms. Genetics plays a big part IMO.

One of hundreds of examples: There is a former Cy Young winner who has a 2006 son who throws mid 90s. Fathers... If you had a strong arm, and/or if Mom had a strong arm, there's a very good chance that your son will have a strong arm. It's not a guarantee, but it's remarkable how often it turns out that way.

PG,
I think the genetics thing holds true many times with the "mom/dad" therory. However, those players that do not have mom and dad to fall back on may have activated the gene from a relative that killed more rabbits with a rock than the rest of the family when we dwelled in a cave.

PG
That gene must have skipped a generation or two at our house.

Are you referring to Mr. Drabeks son?

If a player has the genetics and natural ability, then nurture will help him develop as a pitcher.

If the genetics and natural ability aren't present, nurture will only take him so far.

I have witnessed this in HS program where boy who just learned how to pitch throws harder than kids who have had lessons for years.

I suspect it happens in college programs too with late bloomers others are referring to.

rz1,
Good point!

Dad04,
Yes, and here's another young man from the same team, with some pretty good genes. He doesn't throw as well as his dad, but he has a good arm and he can hit!

quote:

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He doesn't throw as well as his dad

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No shame in that. Not many do, have or ever will.

Guys remember that Roger was not D-1 material out of hs. I remember seeing and interview with Gustavson saying that he was aware of Roger, but that it took the full 2 years at San Jac to develop into a first rate pitcher with some velocity. Late Bloomer?

Every player has a ceiling...otherwise, the hardest workers with the most desire would always play in the bigs. You can assist in the process of development...but you either have it or you don't.

Coach Knight,
Good point! However, most every player never does reach his real potential. Just having it... is not enough! Having it... along with being one of the hardest workers with the most desire... now that's Roger Clemens!

“BigHit” is right, Roger is the "poster boy" for late bloomers! There are many others!

Surprised no one mentioned the photo. There's been many great players wear the PG shirt, but 7 Cy Young Awards makes Roger the best player (IMO) ever to wear one.

For all those that don't like us calling everyone a PG player... Roger Clemens DID NOT play in a PG Showcase. Wished he would have, but PG didn't exist when he was a high school player. We understand his son Koby is going to the U of Texas. Isn't that a big shocker!!! Koby played for the champion Houston Heat club in the PG/BA World Championship. In fact, he was their leading RBI man in the tournament.

Doug Drabek’s son was the tournaments Most Valuable Pitcher. In the Heat dugout were winners of 8 Cy Young Awards. We counted over 20, present and former, MLB players who had sons playing at this event. Genetics should not be ignored!

PG ...

quote:

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Fathers... If you had a strong arm, and/or if Mom had a strong arm, there's a very good chance that your son will have a strong arm.

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I realize you weren't being "PC" on this, PG ... but I got a chuckle out of it. My husband is sans any athleticism and I was a pretty good swimmer tho I didn't really try any other sports. But we keep telling our son he got all talent from his mom ... hopefully that won't hurt him in the long run.

PG,

I noticed the shirt, and thought it looked very nice on one of my favorite pitchers.

Also, as a former college 3B(wo)man, I noticed and appreciated your mention of fathers AND mothers in the genetics game. I was a late bloomer whose arm strength increased significantly in college, and my 04 son resembles me the most in physical makeup and is just starting to "bloom"...

Ladies,

Talent is valuable, no matter where it comes from.

A quick story.

Yours truly had a good arm and all our kids had a strong arm. I was a pitching coach, but not once changed the throwing motion of the kids… never even worked on it. Did work just a bit with body mechanics, but not much. None of the three boys threw the same way or even used the same arm angle. All three naturally threw very hard... 90+ mph.

My wife never played any sports as a young girl. In her late 20s she was talked into playing on a slow pitch softball team. She never even played catch with the kids before that. I went to watch a game and wasn’t surprised to see she was a terrible player. During the game a ball was hit over her head in the outfield, actually it went right past her glove as she stood there in panic. She then ran after the ball… picked it up and threw a bullet … one hop into the catchers mitt. It was quite a shock to everyone there and that’s when I first realized it wasn’t just me that the boys got their strong arms.

I would bet that there are many moms with great arms who really don’t even know it. And there are many moms who had Dads with great arms. Of course, there are lots of proven exceptions to the blood lines theory. Or as in “rz1's” post… Are there?

OH, Happy Thanksgiving to everyone.

And I do mean EVERYONE!

PGStaff,

I hope so...I had an OK arm and my wife was a college basketball player. Keeping my fingers crossed....

I hope so too. I played football, however, my wife's dad was drafted by the Milwaukee Braves in the 50's. He was a hitter though, not a pitcher. In fact his old scouting report rated him a potential power hitter in MLB with a poor-to-medium arm. Yuk! My son is a pitcher!

PGStaff- You are correct...not every kid ever reaches their own ceiling. A shame, but true.