Need based aid

Need-base aid, if combined with baseball scholly, is included in scholly limit.

So, a coach may advise to take the larger of the two.

Isn't need-based and academic money only included in the limit if you have a gpa under a certain amount?

Some things to ponder:

1. Is/was the student-athlete recruited?
2. Will they be a counter, i.e NLI one of 30/27?

15.1.3 Recruited Student-Athlete Receiving Institutional Financial Aid. Unearned financial aid
(excluding loans) administered by an institution to an athletically recruited student is considered to be athletically related financial aid and is subject to the limitations set forth in Bylaw 15.1, unless the faculty athletics representative
and the director of financial aid certify that that the aid was granted without regard in any degree to athletics ability. (Revised: 5/30/08)

15.5.1.1 No Athletics Aid—Certification Required. A student-athlete (except for a recruited football or
basketball student-athlete) who does not receive athletically related financial aid per Bylaw 15.5.1-(a) through
15.5.1-(c), but receives institutional financial aid (as set forth in Bylaw 15.02.4.1) shall not be a counter if the
faculty athletics representative and the director of financial aid have certified that the student-athlete’s financial
aid was granted without regard in any degree to athletics ability. The certification shall be kept on file in the
office of the athletics director.

15.5.4.1.1 Exception—Need-Based Athletics Aid Only. In baseball, an institution that awards athletically
related financial aid based solely on demonstrated financial need, as determined for all students by
the institution’s financial aid office using methodologies that conform to federal, state and written institutional
guidelines (including institutional financial aid that is considered athletically related financial aid
based on the intervention of athletics department staff), is not subject to the 25 percent minimum equivalency
value per counter. (Adopted: 1/14/08 effective 8/1/08)

So the question is....................

Are eventual players roster number 31-35 for 2009, and 28-35 afterwards automatically non-counter/walk-on/unrecruited/no NLI............no baseball money awarded categorized and qualified to be exempt and be awarded need-based financial dollars that are excluded from team equivalency?

I would guess that if you can prove NO RECRUITING OCCURRED, anyone can enroll in an institution that offers need-based
aid and come to the Fall open tryout, get one of the non-counter roster spot?

Thanks for the replys. So what I am getting is that if a school offers 50%, which is said to be a good offer here, and the school costs 50k per year, that I am going to have to pay 25k per year? Or if we take out student loans, son will graduate 100k in debt? what about these kids who are offered the minimun 25% NLI scholly? Their parents have to come up with 37.5k per year? That seems a bit absurd if you ask me. So basically, if a coach offers my son 50% baseball money, he is telling me that he really does not think that much of my player, because at a 50k per year school, chances are that he is going to get that in financial aid anyway. So the Coach says, Take the fin aid package, and uses the money that he offered my player, and gives it to someone who isnt as good of a player, but whose parents have too much money to qualify for Fin aid? If that is the case, why would anyone even consider a baseball offer of less than say 80-90%, Anything less just seems like a slap in the face if you ask me. My player could just pick the school that he wants to go to, avoid all of this recruiting BS, get a good Fin aid package, without regard to baseball, and be a walk-on pitcher throwing 94+.

Wayback--that is exactly what we were told on a recent "unofficial" visit to an ACC school

I think you answered your own question.

Your son can choose wherever he wants based on the offers he receives, or choose to not play at all for that matter. It is a free market, no one is forcing anyone and we have seen the endless debate about fairness of baseball scholarships.

Backstop-17

Look up the definition of recruited athlete.

13.02.12 R ecruiting. Recruiting is any solicitation of a prospective student-athlete or a prospective studentathlete’s
relatives [or legal guardian(s)] by an institutional staff member or by a representative of the institution’s
athletics interests for the purpose of securing the prospective student-athlete’s enrollment and ultimate participation
in the institution’s intercollegiate athletics program.
13.02.12.1 Recruited Prospective Student-Athlete. Actions by staff members or athletics representatives
that cause a prospective student-athlete to become a recruited prospective student-athlete at that institution
are: (Revised: 1/10/90, 1/11/94 effective 8/1/94 for those students entering a collegiate institution on or after 8/1/94,
1/10/05 effective 8/01/05)
(a) Providing the prospective student-athlete with an official visit; (Adopted: 1/11/94 effective 8/1/94 for those
students entering a collegiate institution on or after 8/1/94)
(b) Having an arranged, in-person, off-campus encounter with the prospective student-athlete or the prospective
student-athlete’s parent(s), relatives or legal guardian(s); or (Adopted:1/11/94 effective 8/1/94 for
those students entering a collegiate institution on or after 8/1/94)
(c) Initiating or arranging a telephone contact with the prospective student-athlete, the prospective studentathlete’s
relatives or legal guardian(s) on more than one occasion for the purpose of recruitment. (Revised:
1/11/94 effective 8/1/94 for those students entering a collegiate institution on or after 8/1/94)
(d) Issuing a National Letter of Intent or the institution’s written offer of athletically related financial aid to
the prospective student-athlete. Issuing a written offer of athletically related financial aid to a prospective
student-athlete to attend a summer session prior to full-time enrollment does not cause the prospective
student-athlete to become recruited. (Adopted: 1/10/05 effective 8/1/05, Revised: 12/13/05)

The question does not pertain to qualifiers toward the 25% minimum or 27 counters.

He is asking about stacking baseball scholly with financial aid. You cannot stack financial aid on scholly without it counting toward 11.7 limit.

The player can take solely scholly money and have it count toward the 11.7.

He can take scholly and financial aid and have them both count toward 11.7.

He can take solely financial aid without it counting toward 11.7.

It's that simple.

quote:

He is asking about stacking scholly with financial aid. You cannot stack financial aid on scholly without it counting toward 11.7 limit.

There are exceptions

I see the phrase "institutional Financial aid" in these bylaws, does that include Pell grants, and other federal non-institutiona financial aid as well?

In other words, if son is offered X%, and we then apply for a federal Pell grant, which is strictly need based, is this counted against the 11.7? There is no money coming from the institution itself, it is coming from the federal government, so the coach has no say in it. Its not like he is calling up the feds saying that he needs this kid to play, can he get the grant. The institutional aid, I can understand that there be no stacking or blending, because there is nothing from stopping a coach and a school from getting around the rules, but the federal govt could care less, it is strictly need based.

Everyone interprets things differently. Seek what you wish from the Bylaws and learn what a team equivalency is.

http://www.ncaapublications.com/Uploads/PDF/Division_1_...ca5-16d6827c16bc.pdf

As a practical matter, the NCAA rules typically don't come into play with need-based aid. That's because a student who receives a merit based scholarship has reduced his need. So typically the need based part of the total aid package is reduced by the amount of the scholarship. That's true regardless of the kind of merit.

Consider the following musically talented student. He has very little money, so he qualifies for a grant to cover 80% of his cost of attendance. But he is also such a wonderful piano player that he has received a 50% scholarship in recognition of his talent. Do you think that the agencies (and quite possibly you, indirectly, as a taxpayer) which are funding the need-based aid should go ahead and give an 80% grant? That would give him aid to the tune of 130% of COA.

Taxpayers feel the same way about baseball players. Whatever merit-based scholarship a player gets just reduces the need-based grant (usually).

Institutional need-based aid is generally countable (see rules quoted by OS8 above), but if it is certified to be unrelated to athletic ability it isn't countable. I suspect that for intitutional need-based aid, to make the aid non-countable, the college would need to certify that athletic ability hadn't significantly affected the admission of a recruited student, since the admission triggered the award of the aid.

Given all of that, it isn't surprising that Pell grants don't count in the 11.7, but do count against a player's total aid package. There's a special rule for that (15.1.1).

Are you also saying that merit based academic scholly money also counts against 11.7? If son gets athletic scholly and during application process is offered a presidential scholarship for high GPA/SAT, that it counts towards baseball?

The best advice is to read the Bylaws of the NCAA, then seek interpretation from a university compliance officer, or just call the NCAA for clarification.

Academic monies are exempt for incoming freshman with a 3.5 HS GPA and/or high standardized test scores. These monies remain exempt afterwards with degree progress standards and a 3.3 GPA.

Under all these new rules modifications, the most sought after recruit would be a baseball stud with grades that merit and earn high academic grant amounts. This player type has the potential to be a non-counter which would free up equivalencies for more talent.

http://www.collegeboard.com/html/costs/aid/sources/StudentAid_Fig14a.xls

Institutional needs-based financial aid mostly exists in the expensive private universities. Here is an example of one:

The Office of Student Financial Aid is committed to helping all admitted students find the resources to attend our Private University. The university is need-blind in its admissions process, which means that applicants are admitted without regard to financial circumstances or need for aid. While the primary responsibility for financing college costs belongs to students and their parents, financial aid is available for families who do not have the resources to meet the full cost of attendance. If you think you will need financial assistance to attend Private University, we encourage you to apply.

Your financial aid application materials will be used to determine eligibility for both federal and institutional aid. Private University is one of a small group of private institutions that agrees to meet 100% of each admitted student's demonstrated financial need. The Office of Student Financial Aid coordinates a comprehensive financial aid program consisting of scholarships, grants, loans, and part-time employment. Funding sources include federal and state programs, need-based scholarships, the university's own financial resources, and other sources. For 2005-06 undergraduate students received total financial aid exceeding $56,000,000. Students can generally expect to receive a combination of grant and self-help aid. Approximately two-thirds of the University's undergraduates receive some type of financial assistance, and one-third receive need-based aid. The Office of Student Financial Aid also has information and resources for students and families who need additional assistance to meet their expected share of educational expenses.
******

Extremely talented athlete with off the charts academic credentials applies early and gets accepted to Private University. They file both the FAFSA and more importantly, the CSS, which is more favorable and used by Private's.

It is determined family needs 80% COA and the University wants the kid. The kid at this time has NOT BEEN RECRUITED. Private offers a package with a 30% academic grant and a 50% needs based institutional grant, family pays 20%.

Player opts to walk-on and earns non-counter roster position. All 80% does NOT count against team.

Is baseball coach "aware" this is all happening before the kid steps on campus? You can answer that.

quote:

It is determined family needs 80% COA and the University wants the kid. The kid at this time has NOT BEEN RECRUITED. Private offers a package with a 30% academic grant and a 50% needs based institutional grant, family pays 20%.

I don't think I'm following this example. There is no baseball money involved...so it differs (I think...)from the original question of blending baseball scholly and institutional need-based monies.

quote:

Originally posted by wayback:

quote:

It is determined family needs 80% COA and the University wants the kid. The kid at this time has NOT BEEN RECRUITED. Private offers a package with a 30% academic grant and a 50% needs based institutional grant, family pays 20%.

I don't think I'm following this example. There is no baseball money involved...so it differs (I think...)from the original question of blending baseball scholly and institutional need-based monies.

Institutional need-based monies more often than not would exceed baseball grants for several reasons. Many privates are not fully funded.

Baseball monies classify a player as a counter/recruited athlete, one of 30/27. Once that player has that designation, the conditions of exemption are lost as far as institutional needs-based.

The rules are similar for a player who say has a parent on faculty. That player gets 100% COA paid for, but cannot be recruited, be a counter, i.e did not sign an NLI.

Once an institution(coach) makes contact in the methods above in the thread, he becomes a recruited athlete for that school nullifying possible exclusion of certain grants from exemption.

Example and a good reason to be proactive:

Player is a young highly ranked player and solid academics. He has a dream to play for Private University with a great program and a $50,000 price tag. Lets assume he will get an 9/1 letter, the first allowed letter that usually states "we have identified you as". The player is in his Junior year of high school. The parents cannot afford the cost of attendance in full.

Should the student inquire before 9/1 with admissions?

Should the student Apply early before 9/1?

Can the student call/email the coach before 9/1 and request no formal recruiting should be initiated by them and explain the circumstances?

Page 191 Figure 15.2

quote:

Originally posted by 3FingeredGlove:
OS8,

You refer to "11/1". Do you really mean September 1 of the junior year? That's the date that letters become allowable.

Thats why I love this site, you guys are not only full of practical knowledge, but know all the rules as well--thanks for all of the replly. I guess we have to get poorer, if I can do that and still pay my bills, or bank the table in the recruiting room that these guys bring you into and demand 95%!! Seriously, what I was told was to go into these meetings knowing what I would be willing to pay for school, and tell the coach that this is what we need, and if it is baseball $ fine, need-based aid fine as long as it meets what I feel that I can pay.

High Cheese: We went through this last year. Your son is already a "recruited athlete" based on the offer. The institution/coach will advise you to take the higher of the two (financial aid v. baseball money). The coach would prefer you NOT to be a counter because that would free up money for others. But if you do take the financial aid, your spot on the team is not protected. I guess it makes no dif if your kid is throwing 94, but what if he gets hurt or if he is a kid on the edge?

It's a lousy system that is slanted towards the school, not the athlete. If I had to do it over again, I would tell my son to take the offer from the school that offered baseball money in excess of the financial aid he would otherwise have qualified for.

Not every school does things the same


Talk with the people at the schools you are involved with and see what their answers are--we are here in a virtual world and they are in a REAL WORLD

quote:

Originally posted by TRhit:
Not every school does things the same


Talk with the people at the schools you are involved with and see what their answers are--we are here in a virtual world and they are in a REAL WORLD

So are the Bylaws

quote:

Originally posted by brod:
Your son is already a "recruited athlete" based on the offer.

Bear in mind that the offer has to be written to cause a player to become "recruited". A player who makes an unofficial visit and who discusses a scholarship package isn't considered to have been recruited on the basis of the verbal offer. (13.02.12.1)

Thanks to all for the info. I should have known better than to think that this stuff was gonna be easy. Find the right school, have the right ability, find the right baseball situation, find the right location, find the right money, find the right coach,ECT.

quote:

Originally posted by 3FingeredGlove:

quote:

Originally posted by brod:
Your son is already a "recruited athlete" based on the offer.

Bear in mind that the offer has to be written to cause a player to become "recruited". A player who makes an unofficial visit and who discusses a scholarship package isn't considered to have been recruited on the basis of the verbal offer. (13.02.12.1)

I don't think so?
Look up the definition of recruited athlete.

13.02.12 Recruiting. Recruiting is any solicitation of a prospective student-athlete or a prospective student athlete’s relatives [or legal guardian(s)] by an institutional staff member or by a representative of the institution’s
athletics interests for the purpose of securing the prospective student-athlete’s enrollment and ultimate participation in the institution’s intercollegiate athletics program.

13.02.12.1 Recruited Prospective Student-Athlete. Actions by staff members or athletics representatives that cause a prospective student-athlete to become a recruited prospective student-athlete at that institution
are: (Revised: 1/10/90, 1/11/94 effective 8/1/94 for those students entering a collegiate institution on or after 8/1/94,
1/10/05 effective 8/01/05)

(a) Providing the prospective student-athlete with an official visit; (Adopted: 1/11/94 effective 8/1/94 for those students entering a collegiate institution on or after 8/1/94)

(b) Having an arranged, in-person, off-campus encounter with the prospective student-athlete or the prospective student-athlete’s parent(s), relatives or legal guardian(s); or (Adopted:1/11/94 effective 8/1/94 for those students entering a collegiate institution on or after 8/1/94)

(c) Initiating or arranging a telephone contact with the prospective student-athlete, the prospective studentathlete’s relatives or legal guardian(s) on more than one occasion for the purpose of recruitment. (Revised:
1/11/94 effective 8/1/94 for those students entering a collegiate institution on or after 8/1/94)

(d) Issuing a National Letter of Intent or the institution’s written offer of athletically related financial aid to the prospective student-athlete. Issuing a written offer of athletically related financial aid to a prospective student-athlete to attend a summer session prior to full-time enrollment does not cause the prospective
student-athlete to become recruited. (Adopted: 1/10/05 effective 8/1/05, Revised: 12/13/05)

highcheese...........

have you run the EFC (estimated family contribution) calculators on the internet ? those calculators are available at collegeboard website and on some college websites. this gives you an estimated figure of what the need based colleges will expect you (the parents) to pay. some financial aid packages include the parents EFC and then separate from EFC, they state the students own financial contribution, institutional grants, scholarships, loans, work study. knowing your EFC sooner (now) rather than later.....is a good thing.....so run those efc calculators. our experience was that financial aid packages varied from one school to another. some may be heavier on loans than others. some may offer more in grants and scholarships, less loans.

google and read about "financial aid pre-read" and their role in the recruiting process.

because there are so many unknowns, it's not unreasonable for students to apply to more than one college and then review the financial aid packages in the spring and then make a decision by May 1 on where to attend college. some students apply to 8 - 10 colleges or more.

it's really all about giving your student lots of options......and the ability to then choose from those options.

quote:

Originally posted by 3FingeredGlove:
Bear in mind that the offer has to be written to cause a player to become "recruited". A player who makes an unofficial visit and who discusses a scholarship package isn't considered to have been recruited on the basis of the verbal offer. (13.02.12.1)

quote:

Originally posted by OLDSLUGGER8:
I don't think so?
Look up the definition of recruited athlete.

Well, of course I did look up the definition of recruited athlete before I wrote the post, and that's how I knew which Bylaw to cite.

13.02.12.1 is the definition of a "Recruited Prospective Student-Athlete." Note that this bylaw doesn't say "Actions......that cause a prospective student-athlete to become a recruited prospective student-athlete.....include:" or "Examples of actions.....". Instead it provides a definite list. For some players, being designated as recruited has serious repercussions, and the NCAA has carefully defined the 4 actions that causes a player to be recruited. As you can see, neither an unofficial visit nor a verbal offer trigger the designation.

Perhaps you're thinking that 13.02.12 which defines "Recruiting" shows that a verbal offer would cause a player to be recruited. But that's not correct. College baseball programs engage in recruiting all the time. When a young player receives a letter soliciting a response to a questionaire, that's recruiting. When a player gets an email soliciting his attendence at a camp, that's (frequently) recruiting. When a HS player gets a letter from a coach in the fall of his junior year soliciting the player's interest in the program, that's recruiting. But none of those things make him a recruited player.

Or did I miss your point?

Thanks for the heads up on that BTB--im gonna do that today

Excuse me !!!!

What happened to the last few posts between OLD SLUGGER/HIGH CHEESE and myself---

We had a nice discussion going on---

I think you moderators are overstepping your powers once again