New California Bat Rules

This is right off the CIF Southern Section website:

http://www.cifss.org/admin/ima...0Baseball%20Bats.doc

This clearly indicates that the waiver bats are approved. As we have been discussing in the California forum, it will create a huge performance benefit to teams using these bats and makes no sense. I am going to track down one of these bats and bring give a copy of this document to the coach so he can bring it to each game, so he can show it to the umpires just in case they do not have the list. In addition to creating a performance discontinuity it is going to require umpires who work CIF games to carry a list of approved bats.

I'm going to do the same thing. I'm putting together the lists of BBCOR, Waiver bats and the Q&A page listing what is legal. I'll put it in a nice binder for the coach to have ready.

I guess the bottom line is if the CIF says "these bats are legal for CA 2011 season" and they publish a list, the umpires can't say "I don't care, I'm not allowing these".

quote:

Originally posted by Hawghauler:
I guess the bottom line is if the CIF says "these bats are legal for CA 2011 season" and they publish a list, the umpires can't say "I don't care, I'm not allowing these".

Yes he can if he was not provided the information from an accepted source, e.g. his assigner, a state clinician or CIF directly.

He would be a fool to accept anything a coach or parent presented. Anything can be printed.

You would be better advised to make sure the local assigner has done his job in advance.

Jimmy03,

When you're speaking of the assigner, are you referring to the person that is in charge of the scheduling etc...for the umpires?

Great point Jimmy, I will make sure our area assigner has all of the right information. There is also an umpire training done at our Alumni game so we can make sure all of the local guys are up to speed.

Yes. In most assocations and conferences he is the one who most closely works with the authorities...CIF, NCAA, whatever.

I have had coaches tell me and show me all kids of things that were not, shall we say, authentic, especially when it comes to bats.

Most seasoned umpires will know the rules regarding equipment. Some rookies and less experiened umpires will have a time keeping it all straight. They should rely on their state and local organizations not coaches or parents for information.

I will not look at any paper presented to me by a coach except a line-up or note from a doctor regarding a player.

Jimmy
Two questions...
I would anticipate that this being such a high profile issue, 99% of HS umpires will be on top of this. Is that a safe assumption?
If a coach has a document that is copied from, say, CIF website, why would you not be willing to at least confir with the opposing coach to see if there is agreement that it is legit? It seems like umpires sometimes make things more difficult on themselves than they have to. It's been my experience that most of the time, it's pretty easy to get two coaches to agree on any questionable concerns like these.

quote:

Originally posted by cabbagedad:
Jimmy
Two questions...
I would anticipate that this being such a high profile issue, 99% of HS umpires will be on top of this. Is that a safe assumption?

I would say no, especially if the banned/approved bats change.

quote:

Originally posted by cabbagedad:
If a coach has a document that is copied from, say, CIF website, why would you not be willing to at least confir with the opposing coach to see if there is agreement that it is legit? It seems like umpires sometimes make things more difficult on themselves than they have to. It's been my experience that most of the time, it's pretty easy to get two coaches to agree on any questionable concerns like these.

Just because coaches agree doesn't make it the right decision.

I think it's going to be unfair to put umpires in a position of judging which bats are legal and which are not.

In AZ, there is a list of legal composites and all aluminum are also legal. They aren't necessarily publishing lists of illegal vs. legal.

Do we expect umpires to memorize a list? Are you guys going to carry X-Ray Florescence (XRF) equipment to do quick metallurgical tests on bats to determine composition of pure AL vs. composite?

How is this going to work?

Don't get me started with bat vendors and what they're saying to dump inventory...

Thanks for the reply, Matt. Regarding question #2, think about the context of my question. Coach A has a document spelling out a CIF ruling from CIF website regarding an issue that is in question. Coach B can be consulted if umpire has any concerns that the document may not be legit. He does. If there is still suspicion by the umpire of some sabotage... well, like I said, sometimes umpires make things more difficult than they need to be.
I'm sure there are plenty of doozie stories you could share but, come on.

If the coaches get together and agree to allow a certain bat to be used, and the umpire allows it but the bat turns out to be illegal and little johnny gets hurt, guess who gets sued by little johnny's parents. So if I'm not sure, I guess I would have to disallow said bat.

This is an excellent argument for going back to wood bats.

quote:

Originally posted by cabbagedad:
Thanks for the reply, Matt. Regarding question #2, think about the context of my question. Coach A has a document spelling out a CIF ruling from CIF website regarding an issue that is in question. Coach B can be consulted if umpire has any concerns that the document may not be legit. He does. If there is still suspicion by the umpire of some sabotage... well, like I said, sometimes umpires make things more difficult than they need to be.
I'm sure there are plenty of doozie stories you could share but, come on.

I am not making things difficult. A coach who tries to sway me at game time is making things difficult. The proper avenue for a coach to clarify issues with umpires is either throught the assigner or the CIF.

I can, in about ten minutes, produce a document that 99% of the posters here would believe to be a letter from FED.

I have had coaches put phony stickers on bats, produce fake letters from manufacturers and leagues and swear to God that they got a phone call from someone who told them to tell me that the conference agreed to modify a ground rule. No such call was made, as I later discovered.

I will take my instrcutions, as I am directed, from those authorized to give them, and no coach has such authority.

Umpires have always had to check bats prior to games, this just makes it much more complicated, at least for this year in California. Next year it will be BBCOR only and it will be simplier. It will be important for the umpire organizations who train and communicate with the HS umpires to make sure they know what is acceptable or not and give them the documentation as they are not going to be able to remember all of the variations. I don't think there will be any changes in what has been approved so if they get it right upfront it will be OK.

quote:

Originally posted by cabbagedad:
Jimmy
Two questions...
I would anticipate that this being such a high profile issue, 99% of HS umpires will be on top of this. Is that a safe assumption?

Heavens no.

When did 99% of any group agree to something?

quote:

I am not making things difficult. A coach who tries to sway me at game time is making things difficult. The proper avenue for a coach to clarify issues with umpires is either throught the assigner or the CIF.

Jimmy -
So, how is a coach supposed to do that if he shows up at a game with his team and a rack full of perfectly legal CF4 bats (and the document from CIF that spells out the exception just in case) that are not BBCOR and the ump didn't get the exception memo? And, remember, the other coach is more than willing to confirm the exception and the document. Are you still holding your ground and saying no? If so, IMO you are definitely making things more difficult than they need to be.
Fortunately, it has been my experience that the vast majority of umpires would use practical common sense in this scenario and be able to put the pieces together properly.

quote:

Originally posted by cabbagedad:

quote:

I am not making things difficult. A coach who tries to sway me at game time is making things difficult. The proper avenue for a coach to clarify issues with umpires is either throught the assigner or the CIF.

Jimmy -
So, how is a coach supposed to do that if he shows up at a game with his team and a rack full of perfectly legal CF4 bats (and the document from CIF that spells out the exception)that are not BBCOR and the ump didn't get the exception memo? And, remember, the other coach is more than willing to confirm the exception and the document. Are you still holding your ground and saying no? If so, IMO you are definitely making things more difficult than they need to be.
Fortunately, it has been my experience that the vast majority of umpires would use practical common sense in this scenario and be able to put the pieces together properly.

First of all, we aren't talking about me...at least I'm not. I am well educated in the rules.

We are speaking hypothetically about an umpire who may be mistaken in his understanding and a coach who has letter he claims is from the CIF. I stand firm , as does CIF, that umpires are to take their direction from assigners and the state, never a coach.

Once we head down that path, where does it end? And documentation? Ha. I can produce documentaton on CIF letterhead that says all metal bats are banned. Will you accept that?

I've explained at least twice the proper avenue: Preventive action. Check with the local assigner, state clinician or CIF to make sure the umpires have been properly informed. Then, as with ANY rule, the umpire's judgment carries the day at game time. If you think he erred, file an appeal.

Wow, I could pick apart every sentence of that argument but that is not my intention. I'm sorry you've had such evil experiences that you couldn't ever consider the collaborative efforts of the two game coaches to help make a wise judgement on such an issue.

quote:

Originally posted by cabbagedad:
Wow, I could pick apart every sentence of that argument but that is not my intention. I'm sorry you've had such evil experiences that you couldn't ever consider the collaborative efforts of the two game coaches to help make a wise judgement on such an issue.

*Sigh*

I am an umpire. I work NCAA D-1 and D-iii, high school, summer leagues and I serve as a fill-in in Single A and occasionally Triple A MiLB. I follow the directives , training, and instructions issued to umpires. I do not expect you to agree, but I would have thought you would understand. The coaches and managers I work with do.

Umpires do not take direction from coaches.

It's really that simple.

Enjoy your season.

OK, thanks for not giving up on me. I have picked up from previous posts that you are a very experienced (and no doubt very good) umpire and have offered great insight (which I have benefited from) on this site.

There are a few things with this topic where we're hung up. I believe your primary point is that an umpire does not take direction from coaches - I AGREE!
However, I beleive there are certainly scenarios such as that which I described where "an umpire who may be mistaken in his understanding" (your words) or may not be totally up to speed on such special exceptions could certainly gather a variety of data points on the spot (i.e. - a combination of collaborative coaches verification, documents, having heard "something along those lines", etc.) in order to make the best "umpire's judgement". Another data point, for example, may be that he knows one or both of the coaches well enough to know he would never lie and is very credible and always on top of the latest rules. Perhaps the umpire had a chance to skim the CIF document previously but didn't recall the particular bat in question. Thus, upon seeing the familiar doc that the coach has, he has high certainty that it is legit and he can refer to it to make the best "umpire's judgement". It is totally the umpire's call. This is not taking directions from the coach. I just can't imagine one being so set on saying "no" without being willing to use such available data points to make the best decision.

Also, in this instance, the coach very well may not think to take "preventative measures" because he knows 100% for certain that his bats are CIF legal.
It would be a real shame if the ump refused all data, the coach had to appeal and the game had to be replayed on another date when this could have been avoided with some common sense to begin with.
So, I think I do understand... hopefully you do as well. It's surely OK to agree to disagree.
It does blow me away that you've dealt with such deceptive measures. I feel very fortunate that I haven't run across much of that.

cabbagedad,

As you move up the level in any sport the line between the officials and coaches becomes more distinct and formal, as it should be. A freshman or JV game or LL game for that matter, is not as formal as a league Varsity game, and up the ladder to college and the MLB. To Jimmy’s point can you imagine an MLB umpire taking a document from a manager and officiating a game with this information! Most of the HS coaches know the umpires and have been working with them for years so I would imagine if a coach, who has a good relationship with an umpire, brings some documentation he can call his assigner if he feels the need to and get the proper guidance. That said there no doubt will be games that umpires do not allow a team to use a specific bat that is officially allowable. It is probably worth a call by a coach to make sure the local assigner has the up to date information.

Thanks BOF, I totally agree. Certainly, with Jimmy being a college ump, things will generally be far more formal. However, the topic of the thread and scenario I was describing was about HS bat regulation, so I thought he'd see where this would be feasible. You stated things far more eloquently and far less long winded than I but, yeah, that's what I was trying to say
Perhaps Jimmy will see this and it will make more sense with your perspective.

As a NFHS state rules interpreter, it is my job to attend the NFHS state meeeting where the State Rules interpreter will give us the upcoming seasons direction on all new or revised rules.

I then have to hold a mandatory rules meeting for all of my chapters umpires and our local HS coaches..

Using the scenario of the approved bats...all those in attendence will get a handout and view the powerpoint presentation....now does that mean a coach or umpire might miss the presentation?, sure it does happen, but we teach our umpires to accept no interpretations from anyone but me....and if there are any questions they have my cell phone....

As with many umpires with extensive experience, Ive had my share of experiences that led me to only rely on my training, my chapter interpreters and my partners to assist....

I dont do this to be onerus or to assume that all coaches are deceptive it is just the only way that we can assure that the umpire product we put out there on the field is consistent and up to date....

One of the calls I received last season was from one of my new HS umpires where a coach was arguing the the -3 bat rule was only for varsity and that freshman and JV could use -5...if my umpire had been convinced and allowed the -5 and someone had gotten hurt....its my umpire that would have been blamed ....

quote:

Originally posted by piaa_ump:
As a NFHS state rules interpreter, it is my job to attend the NFHS state meeeting where the State Rules interpreter will give us the upcoming seasons direction on all new or revised rules.

I then have to hold a mandatory rules meeting for all of my chapters umpires and our local HS coaches..

Using the scenario of the approved bats...all those in attendence will get a handout and view the powerpoint presentation....now does that mean a coach or umpire might miss the presentation?, sure it does happen, but we teach our umpires to accept no interpretations from anyone but me....and if there are any questions they have my cell phone....

As with many umpires with extensive experience, Ive had my share of experiences that led me to only rely on my training, my chapter interpreters and my partners to assist....

I dont do this to be onerus or to assume that all coaches are deceptive it is just the only way that we can assure that the umpire product we put out there on the field is consistent and up to date....

Exactly. And this should apply to umpires at every level.

"umpire should never take directions from coach"

that's why we were 15 minutes late getting started one time Jimmy. I told him if he missed that exit it would be heck getting off and getting back to our yard that way! happy new year

Piaa -
Thanks for the info and your perspective. I asked Jimmy if there was a strong likelihood of awareness for this issue (99% - I realize this is perhaps an unrealistically high number but I was generalizing) and the answer was "heavens no". If an interpreter is available via cell on the spot, then of course, this is the best option.
The scenario I described assumes that is not the case and it is not one coach's statement but a combination of both coaches combined with documentation, etc. working in an effort to help an umpire who may not be up to speed on new regulations make a good judegment decision.
I understand your point. I've seen coach/umpire collaboration in the spirit of the game work on several occasions and I'll leave it at that.
Trojan, that was funny, we needed that.

quote:

Originally posted by cabbagedad:
I asked Jimmy if there was a strong likelihood of awareness for this issue (99% - I realize this is perhaps an unrealistically high number but I was generalizing) and the answer was "heavens no".

My response was to your exact question. I even referenced the 99% in my response. I don't change the questions I answer. If you did not believe in the figure you quoted, you shouldn't have quoted it.

Since you have rephrased your question: I believe thie issue will be discussed ad nauseum by every association, trainer and state body. Numerous attempts will be made to educate all umpires and coaches.

Will there be someone, somewhere, who fails to understand correctly? Without a doubt, both in the umpiring and coaching populations.

Does this probability excuse an umpire from following proper procedure? Absolutely not.