new pitcher 9 years old

Looks like a good little athlete. Guess I don't know what a legitimate fastball is like for a 9 year old. It was hard watching him through that one section of netting, but I'm guessing if he doesn't end up pitching, he will be a very talented position player if he can hit as he gets older. Looks like he can run and has good hands, and good body control.

Make sure he has a lot of fun.

I was trying to say he throws his changeup with a different grip and not slowing his arm speed down.Making IT legitimate.

He throws another pitch by changing the grip and slowing his arm motion down.

He did try a 2 finger fast ball but his hands are just too small to be accurate with it.

He loves that kind of stuff,he tries all kinds of stuff to see if it will work.I have to watch him and make sure he isn't trying curves,we had a little fight over that one already.


He is an athlete.I have posted clips of his hitting in the hitting forum but those were off a machine.He is adjusting to the live pitch but judging balls and strikes is his biggest obstacle at this point but that is to be expected.

He does get alot of walks at this point and is the lead off hitter.

My main concern is to keep his arm healthy because I can tell he is going to be fairly good and he does love it.

Thanks for the reply.

Overall I thought his mechanics were pretty good for his age. He looks more high-3/4 to me, which in my opinion is superior to "over-the-top". My suggestion to you is to limit his innings until he is age 14+ and throw fastballs and changeups only. All of his pitches including his changeup should have the same arm action--do not slow down the arm as you mention. I also noticed he was "flying-open" just slightly, a common mechanical fault that, if you push him to throw too hard too soon or throw curveballs can be a major problem.

As a dad who has been-there-done-that I can tell you it is easy to get caught up in how good your son is at this early age. Please don't Get him good instruction, let him have fun, and keep it in perspective that a lot changes between ages 9 and 19. Don't get so serious until age 13+.

His league limits innings to 3 per game and 6 per week so I shouldn't have to worry about coaches over pitching him,which is a good thing.


He definately does fly open when trying to really heat it up and sometimes needs to be reminded to just throw strikes.That usually brings him back in.

quote:

He loves that kind of stuff,he tries all kinds of stuff to see if it will work.I have to watch him and make sure he isn't trying curves,we had a little fight over that one already.

Been there! My son still loves to invent pitches using different grips, but not breaking his wrist. He developed one he called "The Thing" when he was 9, and it's even more awesome at 14.

One thing to think about: Kids who pitch are often the ones with the best arms who also play SS, 3B, and C. If possible, on days that he pitches or is expected to come in as a reliever, you might ask your coach to put him at a less arm-intensive position - 1B or 2B. This, in addition to limiting pitch counts and no curveballs, might help prevent growth plate issues later on. Been there, too, unfortunately - my son was exclusively 3B,SS,P, and aggravated the upper growth plate in his throwing arm at Cooperstown a couple of years ago. But all is well, now.

Keep track of his pitch count! My son is 14 and we have been told to limit the number of pitches to 10 pitches per grade level. This will depend on his size too. My son is big and the recomendation of 70-80 at his age seems ok. Mom and Dad like it to be less and usually it is.

The other thing is rest days. Never back to back days no matter how few he pitches.

Which all leads into to arm and body health. Take sore arms seriously.

He looks good though and thanks for sharing that video. Sometimes I need to be reminded how far they come and how quick they get there.

He has the strongest arm in the whole league and the fastest so when he plays all star,he is center field.

Not alot of throws but when he throws it,it is a long way and hard.Not sure if that would be considered alot of stress on the arm,my quess is it could be due to the rest between hard throws.

He plays all infield positions in regular season.His favorite is first but not many coaches want to put him there because of his arm and glove.He has never played catch,not real sure why,most likely because of speed.BUT,he has just started live pitch when catching becomes SO important,he may play it at some point.


Thanks guys,and gals.

tfox,
Your son is 9, everything is going to change.

Relax and enjoy, he's got a long way to go.

quote:

Originally posted by Tiger Paw Mom:
tfox,
Your son is 9, everything is going to change.

Relax and enjoy, he's got a long way to go.

I am relaxed,just trying to get some heads up pointers from those that have already gone through this with their kids or themselves.The last thing I want to happen is for him to get his arm torn up because of a game.

One thing of advice I'd tell you is be overly overly overly cautious with pitching. Pitching younger means a greater chance of arm problems down the road... even if it's never excessive. Not saying it will happen, just a chance. Most of the best pitchers in the area I play, didn't start pitching regularly until they were 13 or even later.

Many of the better pitchers I have seen did pitch in LL (10-12). They were fortunate enough to not suffer abuse by coaches who place importance on winning at any cost, creating 12 year-old heroes and 15 year-old has beens.

Unfortunately, some of the other effective pitchers I have seen at the LL level couldn't throw by 14. Often, I've seen it in programs that win year after year at the expense of the kid's arm. A local team won our state 4 or 5 years consecutive and made it out of the regionals a couple times. None of their better pitchers were useful by 14. But, 75% curveballs got them there and they didn't care what the kids would be at 13.

That being said, at nine he should just forcus on consistently throwing strikes with a repeatable motion. Focus your energy there on repeatable mechanics, with checkpoints. Strikeouts are going to happen. Look at the swings in the video. Not to mention umpires with ever changing strike zones. He's basically playing catch with the catcher at that age.

I look at it a little differently than most. I think nine years old is a good age to start your talented son with quality instructions. Maybe it’s because I started my son at nine getting him some good instructions and listening to evaluations from proven baseball people.
Former pro players and college coaches are a good place to start. PG Staff mentioned your son might be a good position player later on. I agree with what he says because most good ball players start out pitching simply because they have a strong arm and are usually more athletic than his teammates. Many times the parents focus only on pitching because their sons are currently “pitchers”. It seems the “thing” to do when in reality they may be better suited for another position when they start moving up. I say develop the “whole player” at this age! Split his time between hitting and pitching. (I know you have a softball friend that teaches hitting but go with a baseball person). Like TPM said; things do change so keep his options open and remain flexible with his future.
In looking at the video it’s obvious your son has talent and I suggest you spend a few bucks getting him some baseball lessons from some quality baseball people. Ask them for their honest opinion. I can tell you on the front end the toughest part of doing this is LISTENING to what these people say. Most parents want to TELL the instructors about their sons. LISTEN --- don’t talk. Ask them what he’s doing wrong and how to protect his arm. During this process you will become educated about what your son should be doing. I started into this process knowing very little about how to pitch, hit, and catch but after following my son’s training and progress I know I helped him a lot by simply reinforcing what knowledge people were teaching him.
Most people will say having fun is the most important thing to focus on. I don't disagree with the “fun” aspect for a young player but I also know your son can be a gifted athlete, get good instructions, have his parents involved, take the game very seriously and have fun too. After all --- isn’t being the best you can be a lot more fun than learning how to be a good loser? Best of luck to Dylan.
Fungo

quote:

Originally posted by Lefty34:
Keep track of his pitch count! My son is 14 and we have been told to limit the number of pitches to 10 pitches per grade level. This will depend on his size too. My son is big and the recomendation of 70-80 at his age seems ok. Mom and Dad like it to be less and usually it is.

The other thing is rest days. Never back to back days no matter how few he pitches.

Which all leads into to arm and body health. Take sore arms seriously.

He looks good though and thanks for sharing that video. Sometimes I need to be reminded how far they come and how quick they get there.

This is why I posted this,he did have a sore arm when starting and I know NOTHING about pitching except a few pointers I have picked up listening to those that know more than I.


I was taking that sore arm seriously and posted a clip to see if mechanics might have been the problem.

I am proud of him,as I should be but this is a legitimate post about mechanics as related to injury.So am I to tell him not to pitch or teach him to do it properly so it doesn't hurt him later in life.

I talked to a guy I know at my daughters softball game and he told me his arm still hurts today from pitching he did when he was younger in college.That got me concerned.


He hasn't had a sore arm since the first couple days so I assume it was just a matter of using muscles that he wasn't used to using.

quote:

He hasn't had a sore arm since the first couple days so I assume it was just a matter of using muscles that he wasn't used to using.

Hmm! Usually soreness will come in the latismus area when pushed to new limit. On the follow through, the lat area is stretched as arm declerates toward opposite knee.

If the arm is sore, I would look at arm slot, arm drag, figure where acceleration is created, etc. Make sure those checkpoints are in good positions.

It was his shoulder that got sore and we didn't pitch for a few days.

I ALWAYS make sure he gets warm before pitching.


He hasn't hurt at all since.

Everybody is unique.

I believe injuries happen when players get tired and their mechanics breakdown. That's why hard pitch counts are better as a guide and not a hard rule. A good coach knows when a pitcher's mechanics are breaking down, and the motion is changing. That's when they try to compensate for velocity or control and start to change things. That's when harm is going to occur. It may be 20 pitches for one kid, and 80 for the next.

So, teach good mechanics, and keep him conditioned for greater stamina. Make sure you know signs of when fatigue is setting in. IOW, know your checkpoints. Is he starting to drift? Is he flying open? Is arm dragging? etc.

Well, TFox, your son is at an age where fun and learning begin a true and joyful journey. If in fact, your son ends up being a very good pitcher, I have one recommendation for you. That is to move a bit to the east... I can even recommend a HS! Who says public schools can't recruit!!!

quote:

Originally posted by noreast:
Everybody is unique.

I believe injuries happen when players get tired and their mechanics breakdown. That's why hard pitch counts are better as a guide and not a hard rule. A good coach knows when a pitcher's mechanics are breaking down, and the motion is changing. That's when they try to compensate for velocity or control and start to change things. That's when harm is going to occur. It may be 20 pitches for one kid, and 80 for the next.

So, teach good mechanics, and keep him conditioned for greater stamina. Make sure you know signs of when fatigue is setting in. IOW, know your checkpoints. Is he starting to drift? Is he flying open? Is arm dragging? etc.

Thanks for the advice.

quote:

Originally posted by lafmom:
Well, TFox, your son is at an age where fun and learning begin a true and joyful journey. If in fact, your son ends up being a very good pitcher, I have one recommendation for you. That is to move a bit to the east... I can even recommend a HS! Who says public schools can't recruit!!!

,I just don't see me moving for him to play ball in highschool somewhere.Besides,we have a very good high school program right here.Hope he gets there some day.

quote:

Originally posted by tfox:
His league limits innings to 3 per game and 6 per week so I shouldn't have to worry about coaches over pitching him,which is a good thing.

Six innings a week is too much for a nine year old. My son pitched one inning a week when he was nine, two at ten and three at eleven. He didn't pitch six in a week until he was twelve.

Then moving to sixty feet he only threw more than fifty pitches in a week twice all season. Between middle school and 13U travel he pitched forty-five innings.

This year in middle school and 14U he's pitched forty-six innings leading into this past weekend. This weekend he started for the first time since he was twelve. He pitched a three hit complete game on seventy-eight pitches against one of the top 16U teams in the state.

If you're wondering how much not pitching a lot mattered in his development, he has great control of three pitches (two seam fastball, change and knuckle curve). He pitches relief because coaches know he'll throw strikes in a jam.

At fourteen years old, and 5'9", 130 he's throwing in the upper 70's. His velocity should increase heading into next year. He grew five inches in the past five months (projected to be 6'1" to 6'4). His body needs to catch up. Heading into high school I feel he's right were he needs to be in development.

I'm not bragging. I'm using my son as a point of reference. I was never interested in my son being a 9U to 14U starting pitcher hero (he sort of has been as a closer the past two years). From 9U through 13U I watched too many early pitching studs develop sore arms and/or injure themselves being kiddie ball pitching studs.

The following information is from asmi.org. ASMI was founded by Dr. James Andrews, the leading sports orthopedic surgeon in the world. He does the TJ surgeries on MLB pitchers.

Recommended limits for 9-10 year old pitchers:

50 pitches per game

75 pitches per week

1000 pitches per season

2000 pitches per year

Recommended limits for 11-12 year old pitchers:

75 pitches per game

100 pitches per week

1000 pitches per season

3000 pitches per year

Recommended limits for 13-14 year old pitchers:

75 pitches per game

125 pitches per week

1000 pitches per season

3000 pitches per year

Thanks TG

Kind of information I was looking for.

Believe it or not,there is no rule against a curve in Cal Ripken,atleast that is what an umpire in our league said.


There will be a rule against it for him.I will impose it.

Let me put this in your head.

I was 8 years old and discovered I had a "loose" shoulder... ligaments weren't able to handle the throwing I was doing (other medical stuff that would take too long to explain). From what I remember and have inquired, I wasn't throwing much more, if not less than your son... on average. That caused arm trouble, and has haunted me in a way for quite a while... still does off and on. Rest makes it go away for a while, but not for good. It's never too early to start shoulder exercises with light light weight (also tubing).

My son excersizes alot,much more than most kids his age or even older for that matter.He earned a black belt when he was 7 in tko and is still going once a week.That keeps his muscles limber and loose.


Along with his other sports,he should be in good shape but he also lifts VERY LIGHT weights and let me stress,all on his own without me pushing.As a matter of fact,I have to make sure he keeps it light.

He doesn't do this all the time but will do it from time to time when he is feeling a little extra competitive.



I got up the other day and he was curling 5# with each arm.

He will do set ups with 7# on his chest.


Dtiger,with you personal experience,should this be good or bad.

I didn't start this thread to get into all of this but it does seem relevant.

You might want to check this out, but IMO, your son should not be lifting weights. He is too young and could do damage to growth plates. Tubing exercise and regular excercise along with light tossing is all he should need at is age.

JMO.

quote:

Originally posted by tfox:
My son excersizes alot,much more than most kids his age or even older for that matter.He earned a black belt when he was 7 in tko and is still going once a week.That keeps his muscles limber and loose.


Along with his other sports,he should be in good shape but he also lifts VERY LIGHT weights and let me stress,all on his own without me pushing.As a matter of fact,I have to make sure he keeps it light.

He doesn't do this all the time but will do it from time to time when he is feeling a little extra competitive.



I got up the other day and he was curling 5# with each arm.

He will do set ups with 7# on his chest.


Dtiger,with you personal experience,should this be good or bad.

I didn't start this thread to get into all of this but it does seem relevant.

A nine year old doesn't need to work out. He only needs to play other sports to work the muscles in other ways. Karate is great for him. It's fast twitch exercise.

My son started working out for the first time this summer when the high school coach invited him to train with the varsity.

quote:

Originally posted by tfox:
Thanks TG

Kind of information I was looking for.

Believe it or not,there is no rule against a curve in Cal Ripken,atleast that is what an umpire in our league said.


There will be a rule against it for him.I will impose it.

When my son played rec ball I was happy if the umpires could recognize strikes, much less the rotation on the ball. When my son was twelve in LL the HPU told me after the game my son was going to ruin his arm throwing all that junk. He didn't throw one curve ball. He threw a two seam fastball that screws, a change that drops (now it drops, then it was gravity) and a knuckle change that breaks like crazy and falls off the table. All his movement was based on grips.

However, there is a lot of myths on the curve. The reality is a little kid can throw a curve without hurting his arm if thrown properly. The problem is most preteens aren't taught properly, their coaches can't recognize they are throwing it wrong or the kid just can't grip the ball properly to throw a curve due to the size of his hand and fingers.

Teach your son the knuckle change/knuckle curve for a curve ball knuckle curve. It's all done on grip. He'll need a good catcher. If he can throw this pitch it breaks a lot and falls off the table with no risk to the arm. It can be thrown with the fingertip or the knuckle from the index finger on the ball.

I taught my son how to throw a curve when he was ten. He threw it when he was eleven and a little bit when he was twelve. Once he mastered the KC he stopped throwing the curve in games. I've watched older hitters when we've played up, start swearing when they whiff on it. They thought it was a hanging curve and BANG it was on the ground when they swung. Mike Mussina throws the best KC in baseball (when he's on).

It's not that he needs to work out and he definately isn't forced to,he likes too and like I said,he isn't allowed to use much weight at all.

He doesn't do it all the time.Maybe once a week is all.

I will leave that up to his doctor who is ok with what he is doing so far.

I might look into getting him a pitching instructor after next season because it seems he would be much more knowledgable as to what he can and can't do from a pitching standpoint to keep him from doing something he shouldn't.


TG,thanks for that link and info,I actually had it saved to favorites from trying to learn different grips.

quote:

Originally posted by tfox:
It's not that he needs to work out and he definately isn't forced to,he likes too and like I said,he isn't allowed to use much weight at all.

He doesn't do it all the time.Maybe once a week is all.

I will leave that up to his doctor who is ok with what he is doing so far.

I might look into getting him a pitching instructor after next season because it seems he would be much more knowledgable as to what he can and can't do from a pitching standpoint to keep him from doing something he shouldn't.


TG,thanks for that link and info,I actually had it saved to favorites from trying to learn different grips.

I wouldn't spend money on a pitching instructor for a preteen. Go once and ask the instructor if he's doing anything that could hurt him. Ask him for some basic drills you can do with him. Don't get sucked in this young.

Good advice,thanks.

tfox,

I looked at a minute or so of the youtube video and read through the string of comments and advice.

I particularly liked some of the advice offered by Bum, Dtiger, noreast, Fungo, TG, and Tiger Paw Mom. In the one obvious area of conflict I agree with Tiger Paw Mom rather than Dtiger about the weights issue. My own mentor does not recommend weight training for any pitcher before reaching puberty, although he does recommend certain 'push against your own weight' routines for pitchers of all ages.

Specifically, he recommends short daily routines of prone holds (strengthen the musculature attaching to the edges of the shoulder blades and the musculature holding the humerus into its socket) as well as 'triceps push-ups' which obviously are meant to strengthen the triceps.

The rationale for young pitchers concentrating on these muscle groups with specific exercises is: Most pitchers and their coaches are rather obsessed with training the muscle groups that help them accelerate a baseball. They tend to ignore the muscle groups that are crucial for deceleration of the throwing motion; however, this is a huge mistake. In pitching, you cannot accelerate beyond your body's capacity to decelerate, if that makes sense...

Think of a paddle-ball analogy in which your arm's ability to apply acceleration to the ball somehow exceeded the tensile capacity of the rubber string to decelerate the ball--what would happen? Clearly, the string would break.

Last, but not least, if you haven't already done so, you might want to start down the road of educating yourself thoroughly about pitching mechanics, conditioning for pitchers, mental/emotional aspects of pitching, healthy nutritional practices for young athletes, etc...some people think that's over-the-top, but heck, they're wrong! LOL...

There is lots of conflicting advice out there and also some very high quality advice that is too complex for your young son to thoroughly understand. You should be willing to crunch through this stuff so you can develop a very sound b.s.-meter and help him to distill the wisdom from the junk advice.

Just my 2 cents...

Best regards,

Lee

quote:

Originally posted by Fungo:
I look at it a little differently than most. I think nine years old is a good age to start your talented son with quality instructions. Maybe it’s because I started my son at nine getting him some good instructions and listening to evaluations from proven baseball people.

Wholeheartedly agree, and Texan Son's experience is the same. Learn good habits (e.g., good mechanics) young. The longer bad habits are practiced, the longer they take to break. And good mechanics early will give better arm health.

As far as mechanics, if you truly want some thoughts on that topic, send me a pm tfox.

The best option is to find a good pitching coach, which is hard to do. Don't just listen to folks' recommendations. Watch some of the PC's pupils in game situations. Ask around about how those pupils have done. If they have had any arm problems. Not everything can be blamed on the PC, but by looking at some of the PC's students, you can learn something about the PC.

Then as your son starts working with the PC, keep your eyes and ears open.

Best wishes for your son.