As I understand it, a kid cannot courtesy run and then enter the game (pinch hit or pinch run) in the same half-inning. What is the penalty for this, or should the ump simply not allow it to occur?
Question simplified is: If I see the opposing team entering a kid who has just courtesy run, what is the best course of action?
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A player who runs as a courtesy runner for the pitcher or catcher and is then used as a substitute for another player in the same half inning is considered an illegal substitute. (There's an exception when injury, illness or ejection of other players makes him the only available option.)
If you're the opposing coach who notices this illegal substitution, request time and bring it to the plate umpire's attention. Upon validation, the player will be declared out and restricted to the bench for the rest of the game.
If you fail to notice it until he has reached base and a pitch has been delivered to the next batter, he can still be declared out and restricted. However, the opportunity to un-do any base advances by other players goes away once a pitch has been thrown to the next batter.
Funny you should bring this up today. How long has the courtesy runner rule been in effect? Ohio doesn't use it, but I went to a game in Indiana last week and noticed that they do. It is a time saver and probably a good idea. I know we would have used in when my son was in HS as we didn't have a real speedy guy behind the plate.
Buckeye 2015 posted:Funny you should bring this up today. How long has the courtesy runner rule been in effect? Ohio doesn't use it, but I went to a game in Indiana last week and noticed that they do. It is a time saver and probably a good idea. I know we would have used in when my son was in HS as we didn't have a real speedy guy behind the plate.
It's been in the back of the book under the category of "suggested speed-up rules" for a long time. Each state association decides whether to adopt.
They also have suggested rules to limit throwing it around after putouts and to hand the ball to umpires at the end of the inning, but I've never worked where those rules are in force.
When my son was in Tn, we often had former MLB ump Dale Ford behind the plate. He forbid throwing it around and gathering at the mound after the throw down to second. His games did go faster.
Ford was one of the umps who were apart of the walk out while under contract. He was not rehired. He is in his mid 70's now. He calls HS, College and Minor League games as well as being a state representative.
Noticed last night at a game from my son's old HS that the catcher, pitcher and infielders all went to the mound after the throw down to second.....as did the other team. Maybe I'm getting old....(it has been 2 years since he played HS) but I don't remember his team doing that....and I did think last night that it seemed like a waste of time
Swampboy posted:A player who runs as a courtesy runner for the pitcher or catcher and is then used as a substitute for another player in the same half inning is considered an illegal substitute. (There's an exception when injury, illness or ejection of other players makes him the only available option.)
If you're the opposing coach who notices this illegal substitution, request time and bring it to the plate umpire's attention. Upon validation, the player will be declared out and restricted to the bench for the rest of the game.
If you fail to notice it until he has reached base and a pitch has been delivered to the next batter, he can still be declared out and restricted. However, the opportunity to un-do any base advances by other players goes away once a pitch has been thrown to the next batter.
As far as bringing it to then umpire's attention, when is the optimal time? Does a pitch have to be thrown to him, or when he enters the box?
Please take into account that we have some umps who may not be quite as savvy as some of you guys with the rule, so I want to pick a time that makes it as easy as possible to get it right (if that makes sense). Meaning, I feel better throwing a pitch to him just in case the umpires questions when he "officially" enters. And if he is entering as a pinch runner, not hitter, do I just wait until the PU makes the ball live again?
Depends - is it more important for you to get an out or is it more important for you to ensure the game is being played within the rules and just allow the situation to be fixed?
I want to get an out to ensure the game is being played within the rules. 
ironhorse posted:I want to get an out to ensure the game is being played within the rules.
then wait at least until the umpire has announced the CR / substitute. To be safe, wait until the ball is again made live.
But, the umpire should notice this before it's made "official" and deny the act.
Buckeye 2015 posted:…It is a time saver and probably a good idea….
IF a coach has his CR ready when either a P or C comes up, AND sends him out immediately when the play is over where either the P or C gets on, AND the coach immediately notifies the PU, AND if the PU can make his note and notifications without any delay, AND both the CR and runner hustle off the field so play can resume, it MIGHT save a few seconds. But unless all of those things DO happen, more than likely it will take more time.
One reason the “speedup rule” was originally created was to allow a catcher time to get on his gear and get back on the field to catch warmups. It didn’t take too long to figger out that sending out someone else to take warmups gave the C plenty of time to gear up.
Stats4Gnats posted:One reason the “speedup rule” was originally created was to allow a catcher time to get on his gear and get back on the field to catch warmups. It didn’t take too long to figger out that sending out someone else to take warmups gave the C plenty of time to gear up.
I've watched quite a bit of HS, Legion and travel ball and nearly all allowed the courtesy runner for the P and C. I often wondered if there really was any time saved. You are correct, it's just a few seconds at most.
One additional comment though - most catchers, it seems, don't have a lot of speed on the base paths so a fast CR would work in the offensive teams favor. I think that was the reason my son's HS coach always used the CR for the catcher and pitcher. The starting catcher was not all that fast and the coach would take the opportunity to get more speed on the bases via the CR. And unless the ace (a 5 tool player) was on the mound, the coach usually had a DH for the pitcher.
Catcher's get a big wake up call in college though. No courtesy runners. And it's rare to see pitchers bat at the college level. Most coaches use a DH for the pitcher.
Coaches do not care a bit about whether the CR speeds up the game. They care about not having their catchers and pitchers exert or injure themselves on the base paths.
Sometimes the CR's bring more speed, but since these players aren't in the starting lineup, they often lack the base running savvy to take advantage of that speed. Stats for Gnats may be able to tell us whether, as a group, CR's are more likely to get picked off than players in the line-up.
As a practical matter, the plate umpire determines speed of game, regardless of whether courtesy runners are used. If he keeps batters in the box, gets new balls in play promptly, hustles, doesn't let mound conferences drag on, and keeps both teams aware that he cares about the time limits for warm ups, for batters to get into the box and for pitchers to deliver the ball, the game will proceed at an appropriate pace.
Swampboy posted:As a practical matter, the plate umpire determines speed of game, regardless of whether courtesy runners are used. If he keeps batters in the box, gets new balls in play promptly, hustles, doesn't let mound conferences drag on, and keeps both teams aware that he cares about the time limits for warm ups, for batters to get into the box and for pitchers to deliver the ball, the game will proceed at an appropriate pace.
100% agreed.
No question......game management by Umpires is a skill needed for a properly called game.
Swampboy posted:
Coaches do not care a bit about whether the CR speeds up the game. They care about not having their catchers and pitchers exert or injure themselves on the base paths.
Sometimes the CR's bring more speed, but since these players aren't in the starting lineup, they often lack the base running savvy to take advantage of that speed. Stats for Gnats may be able to tell us whether, as a group, CR's are more likely to get picked off than players in the line-up.
As a practical matter, the plate umpire determines speed of game, regardless of whether courtesy runners are used. If he keeps batters in the box, gets new balls in play promptly, hustles, doesn't let mound conferences drag on, and keeps both teams aware that he cares about the time limits for warm ups, for batters to get into the box and for pitchers to deliver the ball, the game will proceed at an appropriate pace.
I agree on your observation about a coach’s perspective in general.
We don’t have the CR here for the regular season, so the only times I see it are during the summer and fall, or if we play someplace where it is in effect. I will say though, that as an SK it causes me problems, and I don’t like it.
You make a great point about substitutes pinch running. I can’t say for sure because I don’t track whether a runner was a substitute for the player who reached base, but I sure can express my opinion based on observation. 
Subs sure SEEM to have more trouble on the bases, not just for pickoffs, but in all phases of base running. My perception is they miss more signs, get poorer “reads” from pitchers, have more difficulty establishing leadoffs, have more difficulty reading a BIP as to whether it will get through or drop in, picking up the 3rd base coach while running, and I‘m sure a myriad of other problems. And you used a great word to describe it. SAVVY. A lot of it has to do with getting opportunities, but it is definitely an issue.
I grabbed some data to see if I could at least give some support to the idea that fewer opportunities on the bases tends to cause problems. See attachment.
I pulled all the players on teams I’ve scored for since 2002 who had either gotten picked or had a stolen base attempt. I realize it’s easier for me to see what’s going on because I know these kids, but I’d think it was fairly telling that the players with the fewest PAs sure seem to get picked and caught stealing with more regularity than those who got to hit more regularly.
You make a good point, Swampboy, about base running acumen. Though speed can be a real weapon. UCLA baseball this year has a kid on the roster who was the California HS champ in the 100 and 200 -- ran a 10.36 100 meters as a senior in high school -- and is apparently used as a pinch runner at UCLA. Interesting story -- played baseball as a freshman and sophomore in high school, got cut junior year, so went out for track and ended up the following year as the fastest kid in the state. But I guess he really likes baseball because once he got to UCLA he switched back to baseball: www.uclabruins.com/roster.aspx?rp_id=5395
Swampboy posted:Coaches do not care a bit about whether the CR speeds up the game. They care about not having their catchers and pitchers exert or injure themselves on the base paths.
Sometimes the CR's bring more speed, but since these players aren't in the starting lineup, they often lack the base running savvy to take advantage of that speed. Stats for Gnats may be able to tell us whether, as a group, CR's are more likely to get picked off than players in the line-up.
As a practical matter, the plate umpire determines speed of game, regardless of whether courtesy runners are used. If he keeps batters in the box, gets new balls in play promptly, hustles, doesn't let mound conferences drag on, and keeps both teams aware that he cares about the time limits for warm ups, for batters to get into the box and for pitchers to deliver the ball, the game will proceed at an appropriate pace.
Bam! Hit the nail on the head. Our courtesy runners get picked off all the time. It kills me. Now, when my son is pitching, at least you're putting someone in for a big slow guy and I like getting him off the base paths so we can prepare for the next inning. I also like getting the catcher in the dugout so we can go over the batters for the next inning, even though he's one of the fastest guys on the team. But, yeah, I'd guess they are usually, at the high school level, much worse base runners.
roothog66 posted:
… But, yeah, I'd guess they are usually, at the high school level, much worse base runners.
If that’s true, then I guess the CR rule is a speedup rule since it ends innings earlier than they otherwise would.
Stats4Gnats posted:roothog66 posted:
… But, yeah, I'd guess they are usually, at the high school level, much worse base runners.
If that’s true, then I guess the CR rule is a speedup rule since it ends innings earlier than they otherwise would.
Good point.
