http://www.chrisoleary.com/projects/Baseball/Pitching/P...lyses/NolanRyan.html
Is it just me or is Ryan's PAS elbow above his PAS shoulder(in relation to his shoulder axis) beginning with frame # 40 ???
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Yankeelvr-quote:Originally posted by Yankeelvr:
Is it just me or is Ryan's PAS elbow above his PAS shoulder(in relation to his shoulder axis) beginning with frame # 40 ???
Great question. IMO.....for a fraction of a second, Ryan's throwing elbow ends up slightly higher than the axis of his shoulders. Ryan attains this posture because he uses a pronounced initial bow....bent at the waist both hands out like he's holding a huge beach ball, and subsequently pulls his elbows back/up/and behind his upper torso while he's bent over(pulling the elbows aka "throwing with the elbows" instead of circling the hand up.) As his upper torso starts to go vertical, he is still pulling the elbows to gain a maximum load. When the upper torso attains a vertical posture, it is also turning to throw. It's at this juncture that (for that split second) the elbow appears to be even with, or slightly higher than the shoulder due to the loading, stretching and momentum of the arm action.....an instantaneous load to be unloaded. As the upper torso continues to rotate around, the right shoulder and left shoulder swap heights (teeter-totter)....left shoulder goes down, right shoulder goes up to create the release arm slot. As the right shoulder goes up, the right elbow drops a fraction below the shoulder.
Also notice how his lift leg is landed before he starts forward with his throw. Keeps his weight back until lift leg is down. No lunging.
quote:Originally posted by cap_n:Yankeelvr-quote:Originally posted by Yankeelvr:
Is it just me or is Ryan's PAS elbow above his PAS shoulder(in relation to his shoulder axis) beginning with frame # 40 ???
Great question. IMO.....for a fraction of a second, Ryan's throwing elbow ends up slightly higher than the axis of his shoulders. Ryan attains this posture because he uses a pronounced initial bow....bent at the waist both hands out like he's holding a huge beach ball, and subsequently pulls his elbows back/up/and behind his upper torso while he's bent over(pulling the elbows aka "throwing with the elbows" instead of circling the hand up.) As his upper torso starts to go vertical, he is still pulling the elbows to gain a maximum load. When the upper torso attains a vertical posture, it is also turning to throw. It's at this juncture that (for that split second) the elbow appears to be even with, or slightly higher than the shoulder due to the loading, stretching and momentum of the arm action.....an instantaneous load to be unloaded. As the upper torso continues to rotate around, the right shoulder and left shoulder swap heights (teeter-totter)....left shoulder goes down, right shoulder goes up to create the release arm slot. As the right shoulder goes up, the right elbow drops a fraction below the shoulder.
This is pretty much exactly what I see.
I think a key point is that his Pitching Arm Side (PAS) elbow drops below his shoulders as his PAS forearm gets vertical and his shoulders start to turn.
quote:Originally posted by Yankeelvr:
http://www.chrisoleary.com/projects/Baseball/Pitching/P...lyses/NolanRyan.html
Is it just me or is Ryan's PAS elbow above his PAS shoulder(in relation to his shoulder axis) beginning with frame # 40 ???
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I think the high point of his PAS elbow is Frame 41, when his PAS elbow is just at the level of his shoulders. As his PAS upper arm externally rotates, his PAS elbow drops so that at the high-cocked position, and as his shoulders start to rapidly rotate, his PAS elbow is just below the level of his shoulders.
I think it's important that Nolan Ryan's elbow is below the level of his shoulders as his shoulders start to rapidly rotate. I have come to believe (largely as a result of looking at this clip of Nolan Ryan) that it's not necessarily bad that someone's PAS elbow goes above the level of their shoulders, as long as it drops back down before their shoulders start to turn.
I think that part of Mark Prior's problem is that his PAS elbow gets above the level of his shoulders and then stays up there, rather than dropping as Nolan Ryan's PAS elbow does, as his shoulders start to rotate.
As long as we're talking about Nolan Ryan, I wanted to bring to people's attention to this clip of Nolan Ryan that I recently found.
Everybody talks about Nolan Ryan's VELOCITY, but I don't think I've ever heard anyone talk about the MOVEMENT of Nolan Ryan's fastball. Nolan Ryan didn't just throw hard, he threw hard with significant movement as the clip above demonstrates. Notice how his ball starts out looking like it's going to hit the yellow dot but in Frame 51 takes a hard right turn and ends up hitting the green dot.
That says to me that Nolan Ryan pronates the release of his pitches, which I think helps to explain the relative health of his elbow.
Everybody talks about Nolan Ryan's VELOCITY, but I don't think I've ever heard anyone talk about the MOVEMENT of Nolan Ryan's fastball. Nolan Ryan didn't just throw hard, he threw hard with significant movement as the clip above demonstrates. Notice how his ball starts out looking like it's going to hit the yellow dot but in Frame 51 takes a hard right turn and ends up hitting the green dot.
That says to me that Nolan Ryan pronates the release of his pitches, which I think helps to explain the relative health of his elbow.
quote:Originally posted by thepainguy:
This is pretty much exactly what I see.
TPG
When exactly did you begin to see it this way ? Not when you did the write up for sure as you contradict fact when stating " Notice in frame 41 his PAS..." You get the idea. I find your work interesting, but man-up and admit when you're wrong. I think most people would find that refreshing and much more likely to result in the sharing of ideas rather than fluffing of egos. BTW, there is more than one way to get a ball to tail. Don't have any personal experience but when you can hit triple digits I'd guess there are quite a few ways in addition to pronating.
Anyone ever heard Ryan explain how he got movement ?quote:Originally posted by thepainguy:
As long as we're talking about Nolan Ryan, I wanted to bring to people's attention to this clip of Nolan Ryan that I recently found.
Everybody talks about Nolan Ryan's VELOCITY, but I don't think I've ever heard anyone talk about the MOVEMENT of Nolan Ryan's fastball. Nolan Ryan didn't just throw hard, he threw hard with significant movement as the clip above demonstrates. Notice how his ball starts out looking like it's going to hit the yellow dot but in Frame 51 takes a hard right turn and ends up hitting the green dot.
That says to me that Nolan Ryan pronates the release of his pitches, which I think helps to explain the relative health of his elbow.
The dots are poor measurements of movement. The angle of the camera HAS to be directly behind the pitcher for your dots to have meaning... Otherwise, in your dot pic a ball on the outside corner would have zero movement, and a ball hitting the hitter in the head would have three feet of run. If you dont believe me, try doing this dot sequence on a LHP from the same camera angle to determine his run.
Ryan does have a little run though.
quote:Originally posted by deemax:
The dots are poor measurements of movement. The angle of the camera HAS to be directly behind the pitcher for your dots to have meaning... Otherwise, in your dot pic a ball on the outside corner would have zero movement, and a ball hitting the hitter in the head would have three feet of run. If you dont believe me, try doing this dot sequence on a LHP from the same camera angle to determine his run.
Ryan does have a little run though.
The camera generally being slightly off to the right of the pitcher is also why curves from lefties look like they break five feet on TV.
"A little run"? (Actually it's "tail" in this clip; "run" goes the other way.)
While your point about the camera angle is valid, there's still a lot of tailing action in this clip. The camera angle isn't what's making the catcher move his mitt to adjust to the ball's path.
While your point about the camera angle is valid, there's still a lot of tailing action in this clip. The camera angle isn't what's making the catcher move his mitt to adjust to the ball's path.
quote:Originally posted by deemax:
The dots are poor measurements of movement. The angle of the camera HAS to be directly behind the pitcher for your dots to have meaning... Otherwise, in your dot pic a ball on the outside corner would have zero movement, and a ball hitting the hitter in the head would have three feet of run. If you dont believe me, try doing this dot sequence on a LHP from the same camera angle to determine his run.
I disagree.
If you look at the clip closely, you will see that the catcher's head, Nolan Ryan's PAS hand at the release point, and the camera are directly in line. That makes this the PERFECT angle to judge the movement of this pitch by Nolan Ryan, which by my estimation moves something like 12 to 16 inches.
quote:"A little run"? (Actually it's "tail" in this clip; "run" goes the other way.)
Midlo...... CUT goes the other way. Run can refer to a ball running in or away.
Ryans fastball has TAIL, and will RUN in on a righty.
Mo Rivera CUTS the ball in on lefties as he tries to RUN it in on thier hands.
quote:That makes this the PERFECT angle to judge the movement of this pitch by Nolan Ryan
Im not saying the ball is straight, but if this pitch had hit the hitter in the head would you say thats 4 ft of run...based on the dots?
The angle does show some run, but its NOT A PERFECT angle.
quote:Originally posted by deemax:
Im not saying the ball is straight, but if this pitch had hit the hitter in the head would you say thats 4 ft of run...based on the dots?
Yes.
This is a very standard tailing fastball. The catcher sets up outside to give him an aim point. Ryan then starts the ball off the plate and brings it back over the plate for a strike. The batter swings as soon as he sees the ball break, and realizes that the ball may end up as a strike, but does so too late.
