non scholalship roster member

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What if school sees some other player (while my son is senior in high school) next year that they would rather have?

This is a non-issue. Your son will face this issue every year no matter where he is playing whether or not he has a scholarship. However, some coaches will promise not to recruit a particular position for a year or two if they feel they are "set".

The difficult issue with a walk-on situation is determing how interested the coach really is in your son as player on his team. You don't want to find out after arriving on campus the coach's real commitment/view of your son was really a "no cost" rolling of the dice on his part.

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The difficult issue with a walk-on situation is determing how interested the coach really is in your son as player on his team. You don't want to find out after arriving on campus the coach's real commitment/view of your son was really a "no cost" rolling of the dice on his part.

THAT is the key IMO. Your conversation with this coach should be all about understanding where he sees your son in his program (honestly hopefully...ask for him to be honest!).

The 'guaranteed roster spot' offer is one I'm hearing a lot more of this year for seniors-to-be than ever before. I'm hearing a lot of it. Not sure why?

fishw5, is your son by chance a late bloomer who cannot contribute immediately but has potential to do so in the future? That could be one reason the school isn't offering money. Another reason could be that he is seen as strong in one area (hitting, defense), but weak in another and the coaches aren't sure about his potential to develop in the weak area. Also, the school could simply be out of money and not have any to give out.

Ask lots of questions during your visit with the coach and, like justbaseball said, try to get a sense of the role/future they see for your son. Their answers should help you in evaluating things.

fish - welcome to the hsbbweb! You have gotten fine responses thus far from very distinguished members!

You ask one of the most difficult questions there is to answer. I can at least give you my take...

A few short years ago, your son would have probably been offered something (e.g, books, a couple thousand for tuition). Now, with the 25% minimum rule, I can see where coaches could possibly be out of money.

I think it is still early in the game. I would continue to have your son showcase up until at least the early siging period in November to see if a better offer comes a long. I don't believe coaches recruit bench players. If a Big 12 is offering a recruited walk-on, then in my mind your son must be a pretty good player. What if another program like TCU or Dallas Baptist came along and upped the ante? These and other programs are also playing at the highest levels of Division I. If nothing better comes along in the next few months, it might be worth considering. Some here will counsel to follow the money. That is probably the safest route. Sometimes the best baseball opportunity involves taking some risk however. Only you can weigh how much risk you are willing to take and whether or not you and your son are prepared to deal with the consequences. If you go to a program like that and manage to get on to the field, the rewards can be enormous.

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I don't believe coaches recruit bench players.

Not true. Every team needs bench players and coaches often recruit guys they see in that role. That's not to say you cannot impress them once you get there and earn your way into the lineup. You can, and you certainly ought to try. But it can be an uphill battle sometimes, trying to overcome someone's preconceived notions of your role.

Teams can have up to 35 guys on the roster but only 27 can be getting any scholarship money at all. If your team has more than 27 guys on the roster, some are walk-ons, and many of them are recruited walk-ons. And since 27 is a maximum and not a minimum, there could be more, you have no way of knowing.

In years past, "book money" scholarships were given to get the kid to sign an NLI, so that he would be bound to the program. With the new 25% minimum rule, that can no longer be done, so yes, you are seeing more of these situations than in years past. Not signing an NLI, anything you do is on a handshake and either side can break that deal without penalty.

It is possible to get value out of this deal, e.g., if your son gets help he may need with the admissions department and ends up attending a school that otherwise might've been out of reach for someone with his academic record. But in those cases you have to be careful that you don't end up in a situation where he has difficulty keeping his grades up once he gets there.

A player can continue to entertain offers even after making a handshake deal, but if word gets back to the coaches you might burn a bridge there awfully fast. So tread carefully. I wouldn't commit if you really intended just to keep shopping around.

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Not true. Every team needs bench players

We can disagree on that. I put myself in the coach's shoes for my opinion. I want a guy who wants to challenge for a starting role. If he beats out my preconceived guy for the position, then the team wins. I would not even waste my time recruiting someone who I didn't think at least had a chance to play. The bench players fall out from the competition so there is no need to recruit them imho.

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Not true. Every team needs bench players and coaches often recruit guys they see in that role.

Midlo, our son is transitioning from player to college coach. He has one year completed as a recruiting coordinator, is coaching in the Cape this Summer and has networked with some very fine coaches.
From what he has told me, the effort is to sort out the ones that cannot compete for playing time and focus the recruiting efforts on those who can play, that will compete for a spot when Fall arrives, and that will make the team/caliber of play better. At the college level, competition drives improvement. If a college coach doesn't win, they usually do not have a job.
They don't have time or believe in recruiting kids to sit on the bench. College programs, unfortunately,often times end up with enough who play themselves onto the bench. They don't need to spend time recruiting them.

Last year, from my understanding, recruited walk ons who showed up at these meetings found out that many others showed up as well.
Coaches do this because without an NLI they have no clue who will show up in the fall, they need to protect themselves and their porgram, you have to do the same for your son. Let us know about the meeting.

Infielddad,
I was wondering how Jason was doing, sounds like he is finding his way through the world of the business of baseball.
He is correct, coaches don't recruit those he feels will just sit the bench, but those that have the ability to play and challenge the other players. Without those that help make a team competitive among themselves, a coach will have a hard time motivating others to work hard on the field.

Good post.

I appreciate your personal experiences, but every coach is different, and I can tell you for certain that I am aware of guys who were always projected as bench depth from the day they were first recruited.

But again, that's not to say you can't earn your way into the lineup. Many times the way things turn out is far different from what you had planned, and that goes for coaches' plans as well.

One guy recruited for bench depth ended up starting for his team as a freshman in the CWS this year. If you don't quit, you just never know, do you?

This has probably been covered a bunch of times...but does anyone know the logic behind the 25% minimum scholarship? Nearly every school had kids on less before, so what did they see wrong about that?

Seems like the new rule might be hurting kids?

JBB,

But I think it was a result of trying to fix the low APR and grad rates, give them more money and they will stay and forced schools to fully fund their programs and stop some coaches from over recruiting.
IMO, it has just created more obstacles. Those that may have gotten something will now get nothing. The same players that will have gotten nice bb scholarships still will no matter what. This makes the process for recruiting all the more difficult for both sides.
I remember folks here being happy with that decision, but when all is said and done, I don't think players, their parents or coaches are all that happy.

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IMO, it has just created more obstacles. Those that may have gotten something will now get nothing. The same players that will have gotten nice bb scholarships still will no matter what. This makes the process for recruiting all the more difficult for both sides.

You are so right. Coaches who are interested in projectible players may have a hard time convincing them to come without any money to offer. Prospects who don't receive a scholarship offer may choose a D2 or JUCO instead so they can get money. Prospects who are asked to come as a recruited walk-on wonder if they will have a guaranteed roster spot or will be one of 15 "extras" in the fall, some of whom will have to be cut. And without a binding NLI to sign, both parties can renig on their verbal agreement. It certainly complicates the process.

The stated reason was as a trade-off for instituting the transfer sit-out rule. The idea was that since they were taking away a player's sole leverage to prevent having his % cut (the threat of transferring), they would guarantee him a 25% floor.

But the floor isn't 25%. It's 0%. The real impact of the rule is that if the coach doesn't think you're worth 25%, you don't get 20% or 15%, you get zero.

I wish the NCAA people were as smart as they think they are. Like Congress, they sit in committees all year long, they feel compelled to monkey with the rules to justify their existence, they screw things up, and then they refuse to go back and fix their mistakes. Any number of people tried to tell them how they were going astray before it was finalized, and they just wouldn't listen.

quote:

Originally posted by fishw5:
My son graduates in 2010, and he has had an offer to be a "non-scholarship roster player" at a Big 12 school for his freshman year. He would be on the team, just no money. He has offers of money from other, lessor schools

Lived this yesterday...A program has been watching the boy since last Dec. Where he participated in a camp. Encouraged by the coaching staffs comments he was invited to tour the campus. A month later sat in a classroom and ate at the cafeteria etc.. Then came junior day. They have watched him pitch on several ocassions during the HS season and most recently at a area code tryout, followed a week later at a local tournament where the head coach watched and after the game said lets schedule some time next week to "talk". Following week drove 3 1/2 hours in crazy traffic to meet with the coaches where after some small talk said we are very interested in haveing you play here.... But at this point there's no $$. Maybe next year. Chatted for a little over an hour about financial aid and how they would love to see him in a starter role as a freshman. Then drove another 3 1/2 hours home.

As we left the campus the boy turned to me and said " apparently I have zero value to these guys"

Nailed it.

Probably institutions had a variety of reasons for voting for the trio of rules: 25%, 27 max counters, and no one-time exception. However, here is the written rationale that is part of the proposal. I have copied this from the LSDBi database (proposal 2007-9).

Rationale: The average number of baseball student-athletes receiving athletics aid among Division I baseball programs is 27, however, there are some programs that annually exceed as many as 40 baseball student-athletes receiving some portion of aid. A minimum award of athletically related and other countable financial aid at 25% of an equivalency ensures an appropriate balance between addressing student-athlete well-being for those reluctant to serve a year of transfer residence and the ability of baseball coaches to effectively and efficiently manage distribution of 11.7 equivalencies. Requiring the 25% minimum helps ensure the baseball program is truly committed to the student-athlete, thereby encouraging more responsible recruiting and making it less likely for coaches to facilitate transfers of student-athletes to whom they are significantly committed financially. Coaches will be less likely to employ a "run-off" strategy of squad size maintenance after having what amounts to a fall term tryout if the number of counters is limited at the outset. Encouraging a student-athlete who is one of 27 counters to transfer during the academic year will not only cost that institution NCAA Division I Academic Progress Rate points, but the institution will not be able to replace that student-athlete with another counter.

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Chatted for a little over an hour about financial aid and how they would love to see him in a starter role as a freshman. Then drove another 3 1/2 hours home.

As we left the campus the boy turned to me and said " apparently I have zero value to these guys"

This does depend on the school. At some higher end schools, where annual costs are $40K and above, a family could easily qualify for more financial aid than they would get in a normal sized scholarship.

In this case, it is not unusual for a coach to guarantee a roster spot and then steer you to financial aid.

Generally, these programs make no distinction at all in treatment of players whether they are on baseball $$ or financial aid.

This applies to the high end exclusive academic D1's that are not in Ivy League (since they give no scholarships at all.)

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Following week drove 3 1/2 hours in crazy traffic to meet with the coaches where after some small talk said we are very interested in haveing you play here.... But at this point there's no $$. Maybe next year. Chatted for a little over an hour about financial aid and how they would love to see him in a starter role as a freshman. Then drove another 3 1/2 hours home.

As we left the campus the boy turned to me and said " apparently I have zero value to these guys"

When the coach indicated he had no money to offer, I'm sure you felt like you had just been punched in the gut, but step back and try to look at things objectively. First of all, the program may indeed be out of money perhaps because all of it is already committed or because of budget cuts due to the economy. Second, if the coaches are willing to help you obtain financial aid, don't obsess about the source of the money.

Because of the new 27-player cap, recruited walk-ons (those receiving no athletic money, but perhaps getting other types of money) may play a bigger role on their teams in the future. At my son's school, two freshmen who received no athletic money were at least part-time starters this past year.

The key is determining what strengths and weaknesses particular programs see in your son. By asking pointed questions, you can better determine just how much they value your son.

I would put very little weight on the coaches' promises regarding starting as a freshmen. The coaches are probably blowing smoke on that one. As the mom of an incoming freshman recently commented to me, "He was heavily recruited by others but he really liked the coaches honesty (that he would have to work for a position). Everyone else told him that he would be the Friday night starter...now really, he is good, but at a Nebraska or LSU is he really going to pass up kids with four year experience?"

fishw5,

Another way for you and son to consider this is that you are competing for a roster spot and nothing else. Competition is good but you, as a walk-on, have more to prove! IMHO this is an uphill battle from the start. There will be 8 guys that win the battle for the “walk-on” spots. You need to find out how many above this 8 the coach is trying to get to campus. Some programs get way more than 8 to show up (I’ve heard of up to 15 or more competing for the 8 spots) and use the fall to pick their 8. The next year you will be competing for a spot again against the new scholarship freshman, transferred in JUCO guys and the new and returning walk-on guys. This cycle does not end.

By the way as to your questions; nothing holds the school to put you on the roster or play as a walk on. Be assured they will continue to look for guys they can get to walk on. They offerd you the walk-on because they must see some potential in your son and hope you will show up to compete for the walk-on spot. From their perspective they have nothing to loose.

You want to look at how many JUCO transfers the school usually brings in and consider going to one of the JUCO programs they recruit from. I would lean towards higher potential for play-time at the JUCO or place where you are getting $$ over the recruited walk-on battle. But this is something you will have to consider and decide.

The battle for a spot is going to be there at any place you end up.

quote:

what holds the school to their word of a place to play for his freshman year? What if school sees some other player (while my son is senior in high school) next year that they would rather have?

These are legitimate concerns.

When you speak with them ask if he is guaranteed a roster spot in the spring of his freshman year, not just the fall. Also, ask where they see him in their future. Battling for Big 12 play time as a NLI scholarship freshman is hard enough...as a recruited walk on its nearly impossible.

In the end, it really depends on what your son wants to do. If he isn't sure, then wait with the decision.

The simplest and best way for situations like this is for the player to believe he can make the team---even scholly players have no assurances of playing time or travel time ---it usually works out

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Probably institutions had a variety of reasons for voting for the trio of rules: 25%, 27 max counters, and no one-time exception. However, here is the written rationale that is part of the proposal. I have copied this from the LSDBi database (proposal 2007-9).

Well, from the sound of it (mostly the other thread about scholarship pulls)...they really messed that one up - huh?

dswann - I know this was disappointing...but you and your son really need to take a deep breath and think a little more carefully about the situation that was presented to you. Many, many highly successful college baseball careers began just the way this coach presented it to you. If your son is good enough, he will play. Period. If he doesn't have the confidence that he is, then he needs to go somewhere else.

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Originally posted by justbaseball:
dswann - I know this was disappointing...but you and your son really need to take a deep breath and think a little more carefully about the situation that was presented to you. Many, many highly successful college baseball careers began just the way this coach presented it to you. If your son is good enough, he will play. Period. If he doesn't have the confidence that he is, then he needs to go somewhere else.

justbb - I agree with your take. What do you say to those who say that you should shy away from programs who do not offer money? The implication being that if the coach does not think enough of you to offer something that you must not have a very good chance at playing.

I like the juco suggestion above. That might be another way to fulfill this dream. Go out and tear it up at a juco program that feeds this Big 12 program, turn their heads, and perhaps cause them to open their pocket books.

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I like the juco suggestion above. That might be another way to fulfill this dream. Go out and tear it up at a juco program that feeds this Big 12 program, turn their heads, and perhaps cause them to open their pocket books.

If big money is not in your son's future, consider putting his academic goals first. Then take the best baseball opportunity available from among his best academic options.

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What do you say to those who say that you should shy away from programs who do not offer money?

Great question. Seems to me the landscape is changing and depending on where I thought my son fit...I might advise him to accept this option if it were the right school and I came to believe he had a fighting chance to play.

But I believe there'd be a lot of questions to try and get at that issue.

I used to think that a recruited walk on has just as much chance as a scholarship player if they have the skills, it might be true at some programs but as I watch several programs, it has become evident that is not always the case.

From what I am hearing, the school's APR is not affected by programs shedding of non-scholarship players, so there is an inherent desire to make sure a scholarship player makes it in the program and does not transfer out.

Unfortunately it has become a process of go where the money is and you will have extra opportunity.

From what I have seen...I think they have just as much of a chance but I also think they (often, not always) start at a deficit.

In the end, the coach wants to win.

quote:

.....

Great question. Seems to me the landscape is changing and depending on where I thought my son fit...I might advise him to accept this option if it were the right school and I came to believe he had a fighting chance to play.

But I believe there'd be a lot of questions to try and get at that issue.

All things being equal a recruited walk-on will not get the same opportunites to prove himself in fall practice, bp, summer assignments, one-on-one etc. that the scholarship player gets. This will vary greatly by program.

If you are a good player you can overcome this obsticle............as long as you get the opportunity. Unfortunatly, its very difficult to figure out in advance if you will get that opportunity. If they offer money for next year, you know they are serious about offering you an opportunity. If they dont offer you money for next year, you're going to have to figure out how interested they really are in you as a player. Are you a free roll of the dice? Do they see you with a particular role in their program?

I believe if they "see you" getting significant playing time as a freshman, they would be offering money to be competitive with other programs who will no doubt be vying for the services of a freshman that could play right away. I guess the best part of the walk-on offer is that you don't really have to committ to them, you have all sorts of time to evaluate the situation.

This is just my opinion, take it for what it's worth.
With a compressed schedule, it's very difficult to rely on 27 players through a long season. Coaches are looking for players that will be able to contribute, not just sit. It's up to each player to determine where he may fall in relation to the talent being recruited and make up of the team before he makes the decision to be a part of a team with no $$ commitment.
Watching some teams play last year, most had roles, (yes some more than others), but that would have occured even in the past.
Lots of questions to ask, that is why schools are having meetings for walk on players. Make sure you understand if you show up in the fall, you do not have to try out for the spring roster, if you can't get that commitment, I would suggest one walks away.A recruited walk on should have the same opportunity to leave an impression as a player with $$. The only difference is that he has none.
JMO.

[QUOTE]

Originally posted by CollegeParent:

If they dont offer you money for next year, you're going to have to figure out how interested they really are in you as a player. Are you a free roll of the dice? Do they see you with a particular role in their program?

[QUOTE]

The former JUCO my son played at brought younggunson into the office after season and simply told him that they weren't really sure what role he would have with them next year but would love to have him back again if he's interested. Nothing more, nothing less. They made this decision based off an incredible 25 total innings pitched all season. lol. Fast forward into mid-summer. Son is having an awesome season on his summer collegiate team. His old JUCO calls and begins throwing $$ at him to get him back telling him he will be their #1, that he has the most innings of all Pitchers coming back, that he will get the most money of any player they have, etc. Son just laughed and found it quite humorous. (He ended up signing with another Top JUCO program). I'm sure lots of coaches think that since the player is already enrolled at their school they will automatically come back in the fall and not offering any $$ will allow them to go out and attract freshman talent. Is it wrong? I'm not saying it is but as far as my son is concerned he determined that day at exit interview that he wasn't valued or needed thus, his search for a school that wanted/needed him.

Lots of great information as usual about this situation.

But has anyone else noticed that since fishw5's first post that they haven't been back since?

Think about this -

What will you say to yourself when he shows up in the Fall and their are 8 kids told the same thing, with another 8 JC transfers at his position? Will you say, "competition is good for him - let him sink or swim" or "I know the coach will be fair and not favor the more experienced players or those who receive scholarship money" or "He's at a great school and will get a great education, it doesn't matter." ??? If so, go for it.

I think it would be the rare coach who would guarantee a roster spot in the Spring to a walk-on freshman. Money equals a "chance" at playing time. Yes, there are exceptions. Why not work at a JC to get bigger, stronger and better, so that he will actually get a scholarship offer?

Since you asked about what questions to ask - look at last year's roster - how many walk-on FRESHMEN? (I would expect about 40 athletes to hit the field at a Big 10 school in the Fall) How many at his position? What is his redshirt policy? Don't burn bridges. He may recommend a JC that feeds into that school.

I may not have posted, but have been reading the responses hourly. Thanks for the helpful information from everyone.

We meet with the coaches on Monday, so I will report then.

fishw5, there are programs who bring on tons of walk-ons in the fall, only to weed some out by December. But there are others who have 35 or less from the start and are committed to keep all who arrive on campus. Your job as a parent is to determine which type of program is recruiting your son. Best wishes!

Another question you may have is: is being on the roster good enough or do you expect to have meaningful playing time?

You can check to see how the PT is distributed by looking at the rosters and Stats. Some schools are great about giving a lot of guys some meaningful playing time while others play 8 position players most of the time and others rarely get in.

Obviously your son will be one which gets the most PT, even though some of the others are getting the $$$...

Just food for thought.

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I think it would be the rare coach who would guarantee a roster spot in the Spring to a walk-on freshman. Money equals a "chance" at playing time. Yes, there are exceptions. Why not work at a JC to get bigger, stronger and better, so that he will actually get a scholarship offer?

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Originally posted by Infield08:
fishw5, there are programs who bring on tons of walk-ons in the fall, only to weed some out by December. But there are others who have 35 or less from the start and are committed to keep all who arrive on campus. Your job as a parent is to determine which type of program is recruiting your son. Best wishes!

Very succinct and correct IMO.

Infield08, my son is not a late bloomer. However, he is a stronger hitter than he is a fielder. He is also a little on the slow side, about a 7 flat 60.

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I think it would be the rare coach who would guarantee a roster spot in the Spring to a walk-on freshman.

This is actually not that rare. First, all the Ivy's handle it essentially like this. No scholly's, but the baseball program guarantees roster spots to the players they recruit.

Some of the other higher-cost/academically exclusive D1's do the same thing - the baseball program has some pull to get the kid admitted, and even if there is no scholly, the roster spot is a sure thing.

quote:

Originally posted by justbaseball:

dswann - I know this was disappointing...but you and your son really need to take a deep breath and think a little more carefully about the situation that was presented to you. Many, many highly successful college baseball careers began just the way this coach presented it to you. If your son is good enough, he will play. Period. If he doesn't have the confidence that he is, then he needs to go somewhere else.

No worries. New to the process and this frankly blindsided the family. I think for the boy it was like finding out 10 minutes after your first kiss the girl was your cousin... Have not thought outside the box until now but it could work. What's confusing is why not just comunicate this over the phone. When the boy was 9 his first travel coach set the tone early " This is what I'am selling, if you don't like what Iam selling you can go some where else". As true today as it was 8 years ago.