Nice article.  Thanks for sharing.  

Dr. James Andrews on seven major sports health myths

http://www.cleveland.com/dman/...s_on_seven_majo.html

Great articles. 

"No curveballs until you can shave". Dr James Andrews

Good thing my son started shaving at 9 then!

I find it interesting that the article is about "overuse" pretty much and people walk away speaking about no curveballs till one can shave. What if we said the same about fastballs? Eh?

No fastballs until one can shave.

I hope that anyone reading this will take the written word of James Andrews over yours.

No one is arguing that overuse is not the issue.

 

If your son began throwing CB at 10,11, 12 and you feel confidant you did the right thing then that is wonderful but he hasn't gotten through HS, college yet.

 

I think that  what he meant was that if your son is not physically mature hold off for a bit and I think that most would agree 100%.

 

 

 

 

 

Skylark- Why do you continue to have some sort of personal vendetta against people that state that it is unsafe to throw curveballs at a young age? 

 

Here was the exact quote from Dr. Andrews pertaining to curveballs:

 

Throwing a curveball has a neuromuscular-control dynamic. In other words, it takes a lot of natural ability at a young age to throw that pitch. It's a complicated pitch. If you throw it with good mechanics, it doesn't have any greater force on your shoulder than throwing other pitches, but you've got to throw it correctly. It's misleading to say it's OK to throw the curveball with good mechanics because the rub is, most kids don't throw it with good mechanics. My rule of thumb is, don'tthrow the curveball until you can shave, until your bone structure has matured and you have the neuromuscular control to be able to throw the pitch properly.

No one- I'll repeat- NO ONE, has ever denied overuse is the number one contributing factor to injuries. But if the world's leading sports medicine doctor says the exact words above, why would you continue to argue it?

 

Please stop arguing a point no one is trying to argue with you. Its very unbecoming.

Im serious, why dont we apply his same words to the fastball? Why is it ok to throw the fastball before one can shave but not the curvevall? Throwing the fastball takes a neuro muscular control dynamic too. Just curios, thats all.

 

There is nothing kinetically wrong with throwing a curveball, as proven time and time again by medical research. I would be wary to teach a young pitcher to throw breaking pitches, however, because lesser-developed bodies struggle repeating mechanics when fatigued. When a pitcher begins compensating for a lack of "stuff" (for lack of a better term) by altering his mechanics, that's when things can go wrong. Young pitchers don't know how to properly cope with the necessary adjustments on the mound, and that is why the principle of breaking pitches being bad for the arm has been developed.

I posted the above just a few days ago in another thread. Please read.

What happens when we start really getting at the heart of the issue? Suppose Dr. Andrews was tocome out and say "we have to really put a curb on the extent of fastballs and pitches in general for our youth, the overuse of the fastball is killing young arms!"

Would it change our mentality?

 

Little League now has pitch count limitations, days of rest requirements, etc. because Dr. Andrews did say this a few years ago.

 

What point are you trying to prove? That because your son threw curveballs at a young age, and he still hasn't gotten hurt, that Dr. Andrews and everyone else is wrong?

 

Congratulations to your son. I wish him the best. 

JH, I dont doubt throwing a curveball wrong is harmful to the arm. In the article he speaks a lot about bad mechanics and overuse and not really a lot on the curveball. Even his 4 things he would warn in general for pitchers does not mention throwing or not throwing the curveball. From my own observations it seems clearly obvious to me that bad mechanics combined with overuse is pretty much the entire problem of pitching injury. Bad mechanics here refers specifically to fastball mechanics. What intrigues me is that there doesnt seem to be one clear proof positive instruction for teaching or showing correct mechanics either.

I do believe that if skylarks son threw with higher velocity we wouldn't be continually having the same conversation over and over and over.

What does that have to do with anything TPM?

quote:

When looking at adolescents between the ages of 9 and 14, Lyman, Fleisig, Andrews, and sinski 2002)found three variables played a role in shoulder and elbow pain: pitch types, pitch counts, and pitching selection.  Throwing curve balls and sliders were identified as significant risk factor for developing elbow and shoulder pain in pitchers within this age group. These pitches place high force loads on both the shoulder and elbow similar to the fastball Escamilla,1994).A more recent study in 2008 demonstrated shoulder and elbow loads were greatest during the fastball and the curveball did not produce any more of a potential for injury than the fastball (Dun, Loftice, Feisig, Fingsley, & Andrews, 2008). A study of collegiate pitchers,although showing significant differences in kinematics, also did not demonstrate significant differences in kinetics between the fastball and the curveball (Fleisig et al ., 2006). However, the complaint of elbow and shoulder pain within the adolescent groups throwing curveballs is concerning and may be attributable to a cumulative effect along with multiple factors including inadequate mastery of the pitching mechanics, immature musculature and open growth plates,and high pitch counts.

 

quote:

High prevalence of overuse shoulder and elbow injuries in baseball pitchers continues to have significant effect at all levels of baseball.  Recommendations based on published studies continue to be made in an effort to reduce the injury rates, especially injuries resulting in surgery and loss of pitching ability.  Olsen et al. (2006)in a 2006 study made recommendations for adolescent baseball pitchers (14-20 year olds) that included avoiding pitching with fatigue and arm pain, and pitching too much which was defined as 80 pitches per game, 8 months of consecutive pitching,  and 2500 pitches in a competition per year. Suggestions were also made to scrutinize starting pitchers, pitchers with velocities higher than 85mph, taller and heavier pitchers, pitchers that pitch a high volume of warm up pitches, pitchers that routinely use anti-inflammatories and ice as a preventative measure against injury, and pitchers that participate in show cases(Olsen et al., 2006)

 

When Dr. Andrews speaks, I listen. That man has forgotten more about the elbow and shoulder than probably all of us combined have learned about the arm.

It speaks well that the experts have identified the problem of pitching injury to that of overuse. Every pitcher will overuse his body either a little or a lot. The experts have been able to identify all the pertinent risk factors associated with injury to better inform the public about how to avoid injury. Its up to coaches and parents to take that advice and apply it. Not what they "think" but rather what actual evidence shows. For reasons unknown in large part, the curveball has long been associated directly to elbow pain and injury. Its an old school dogmatic philosophy that just doesnt go away. You still hear it at almost every hs game and certainly at little league games in every town in America.

Now, if only we could convince the world that in reality, a pitchers elbow blew out from throwing too many fastballs, too frequently, without adequate rest.

 

Bulldog 19,

The perception is that some believe they know better than Dr. Andrews.

The man is the authority and anyone arguing what he says is just plain ridiculous.  The article was great, thanks for sharing.

I just read an article http://seattletimes.com/html/h...811_youngarms29.htmlabout how a young pitchers dreams came to an end when he damaged his shoulder and then had elbow problems later. He sued the school, lost, and in the end hated baseball for quite some time. The story brings up the interesting point of how increasingly in danger pitchers are when they pith past the point of fatigue. it goes on to explain that a pitcher is 36 times more likely to need TJS when he pitches after the pitcher is fatigued. Overworked pitchers are at the very upper end of risk and account for almost entirely all pitchers who need surgery. In the article it speaks of how many pitches he threw leading up to the career ending surgery. That number? About 425 over a 16 day period. I was curious so I looked at our hs stats and noted that during my own kids heaviest workload in the summer when he started to get fatigued he threw about 300 in that same time frame (16days). The difference though I believe (as the article states) is that the risk factor goes up extremely fast exponentially when a pitcher continues to pitch past the point of fatigue. One researcher found that a pitcher whose pitch count was up in the stratosphere around 140 was 8 times more at risk than someone at a count of 120. Long innings can and do have the same effect. I have always had in mind that a 50 pitch inning was as bad as a 120+ pitch count in a game.

 

If we assume that the most pitches a pitcher throws are the "fastball" and couple that with scientific evidence showing the fastball to have the most stress on both the elbow and shoulder  joints, then it is clearly a no-brainer that the reality of it is- too many fastballs over a period of time without adequate rest is what damages joints. I do not say this to state a pitcher should throw more "other pitches" but am just stating the fact that too many pitches without rest are what damages arms and those "too many" pitches were moistly fastballs.

Let me start by saying that I am an Andrews fan.  I have done my best to follow Andrews' recommendation with my own son and other kids I have coached.  But, you have to understand that things are not always as clear cut as they are portrayed to be.  Many of the statistics he quotes (e.g. pitchers who pitch when fatigued are 36 times more likely to suffer arm injury) are anecdotal, i.e. based on the patients he has seen and what they have TOLD him.  Several of the ASMI articles, and some of the risk levels quoted in the article above,  are based on questionnaires submitted to injured players.  In short, they are based on memories that may or may not be accurate and motivations that may are may not be clear.  In a court of law they would probably be excluded as heresay.  Not exactly what I would call hard science.  

 

Don't get me wrong, I agree with his conclusions, but just because he is the great Jimmie Andrews does not mean the underlying "science" should not be subject to scrutiny.

 

Skylark mentions that "One researcher found that a pitcher whose pitch count was up in the stratosphere around 140 was 8 times more at risk than someone at a count of 120."  Yeah, well guess what, the original "researcher" was a baseball "historian" with Baseball Prospectus.  The guy who came up with the amended version was a statistician.  Again, hardly what I would call hard medical science.    Remember, Baseball Prospectus is Will Carroll's deal.  Carroll wrote a book called Protecting the Pitcher, even though his main expertise is his old man is a doctor.

 

 With or without numbers, research and studies and testing have all came to the same conclusions- that pitching while fatigued and/or through pain is the number 1 factor in serious injury.

Skylark, what's with you guy? No one, I repeat NO ONE does not disagree that over use leads to problems. No young pitcher should ever pitch in pain 

 

That's not a new fact, BTW, that was the thought back when son was young, that's why he didn't play year round baseball, watched his innings and pitch counts and made sure that when he left the mound that was it for the day.

I am wondering if it is WE that you feel needs convincing, or perhpas youirself?

 

MTH, I agree with what you have said, when you go to any doctor that is involved with Andrews or ASMI, they do ask those questions, of course I agree that an adult at 23 or a young pitcher may or may not remember when he began throwing curveballs, or even when he began pitching.  Nevertheless, they take a brief history, and I mean brief.

 

I also agree what you said regarding with what Skylark refers to as studies.  These studies are articles written by baseball people that have no scientific or medical background. 

 

I found the article to be a bit amusing. This was not a little boy whose coach made him throw too much in a tournament. This was about a HS player who (and his parents) should  know the risks of pitching (by that age) and the player can speak up for himself and say no.  I place more blame on the parents for not doing their due diligence. Why not take them to court?

 

There are apparent risks to pitching, and one has to decide whether the risk is worth the reward.   The FB may be a big culprit in injuries, however do know and understand that if one does not develop the fast ball, they can have THE best curve ball, they can have THE best change up, but if their primary pitch isn't at the velocity the college coach, or a pro organization finds sufficient, chances are the player (especially a righty) isn't going to get the opportunity he may have always dreamed of.

 

BTW, does any college coach OR scout really care if a pitcher threw the least amount of pitches in his area or threw first pitch strikes?

TPM, Im just trying todrive home the point about curveballs not being the culprit in injury. Its clearly obvious that some on here still believe that old jargon about throwing breaking balls is somehow the greatest factor in elbow and shoulder injury. Just stating my opinion that that isnt true.

I also agree that it was primarily the kid and parents fault for his overuse and not the school. Pitchers need to learn that they themselves have the ultimate say on when and how much to pitch and when to stop.

My point about first pitch strikes, low pitches per inning, etc. seems to have gone completely over your head. So, I will state it again. Son developed the breaking ball for the purpose overall to reduce pitch counts per inning and thus lower pitch counts overall. He is achieving that goal by being able to command his fastball and breaking ball. Think for a moment would ya- If you knew of a way to reduce a pitchers pitches per inning and per game leading ultimately to lower pitch count totals for a season, would you do it ? You freakin bet so ! By doing so you are reducing the number one risk factor for injury. Just by throwing 10-15% better first strike totals per batter, a pitcher will, over the course of a game throw about 10 pitches less per outing and ultimately hundreds less per season in total.

BTW, one of the D1 coaches we are in contact with has as part of his goals for his pitchers, the goal for all his pitchers to be at or around 70% first pitch strikes and 15 pitches per inning.  He then told us that apitchers ability in hs to do that can have a drastic effect or deciding factor on if they will choose you or not. So, coaches really do care about pitches per inning and first pitch strikes

College baseball is not HS ball.  Most decent hs pitchers can get outs with throwing lots of curveballs but better college hitters don't get fooled as easily.
A pitcher should always challenge a hitter with a first pitch fb.
I just don't get the purpose of throwing breaking balls to cut down on pitch counts.  You know what is best for your son.  It may work now...it probably wont later on.

For all who have young pitchers and following this topic.  Develop the fastball.  Everything else is secondary.

http://mnhopper1s.wordpress.co...igh-school-baseball/

 

You want real research; help yourself. Lots of studies at the end..

A pitcher should challenge a hitter with a first pitch strike. There are aggressive teams and hitters out there and as such, an occasional first pitch strike via breaking ball is just the thing to keep hitters off balance.

Theres throwing "lots of curveballs" and then there is throwing "quality but fewer curveballs". Son is in latter group. Its simple logic- no hs pitcher who throws just fastballs is going to survive for very long. Any hitters dream is for those few hs pitchers who throw nothing but fastballs regardless of velocity. We face a few stubborn hs kids each year who throw upper 80's or higher and try to blow their fastball for every pitch by our good hitters. They end up getting humbled real quick after a few hits and runs batted in. Developing that secondary pitch is thus critical especially if you dont have an overpowering fastball. Learning to command that secondary pitch (sons case it is his breaking ball) equates exactly to more strikes, fewer hits, fewer walks, fewer hit batters, and less pitches per inning. That same philosophy works across the boards at every level. How many professional pitchers do you know have found that the breaking ball with command does not work in their respective league? Absolutely none!

Develop the fastball everything else is secondary if you wish to play ball at the highest level.

Listen to TPM.. she is correct.

 

Only until your son has reached the highest levels will you finally understand this.  This is not a matter of being condenscending, just offering some thoughtful (and retrospective) advice.  Without that fastball, you might pitch in h.s. but you won't pitch in college or beyond.  It is required.  Get it, use it, command it.

 

As for the curveball, of which I am a huge proponent, I am sometimes concerned that parents of youths think that same pitch that gets outs in h.s. will get outs at the next level.  There is a reason the curveball is ravaged in college but coveted in the pros, it is a matter of metal vs. wood.  It works in h.s., fails in college, then works again in the pros.. but by that time has evolved into a more advanced pitch.

 

Be obsessed with velocity.  I've been saying this for years.  The fastball is the ace card.

I totally agree that the fastball is number one. But lest be honest here- successful pitchers at any level including hs have a secondary pitch that they throw.  I understand it all Bum, pitching gets bet ter at each level and that at each level everything gets better or more refined. The best pitchers in hs all throw a breaking ball.

When Bum, Jr. set a state record with 21 strikeouts in a h.s. baseball game (and no passed balls) he maybe threw 2 curveballs.

Right on, but we both know that a hs pitcher to be successful, must have at least 2 pitches. Thats how it is in college and the pros also.

All pitchers have the following, all hitters should know this.

 

Control pitch - pitch they throw when they absolutely need a strike - or when they want the hitter to to pull or not pull ie. runner at 2B with no outs - in most cases this will be the fastball.

 

Out Pitch - could also be described as pitching to contact - often used in favorable hitting counts or early in the AB - this can be most anything from BP fastball with some sink to off speed breaking balls to cutter or two seam FB. In most cases this is the pitch used to get ground balls, especially in DP situations.

 

Strike Out Pitch - obviously most often used with 2 strikes - usually the best pitch a pitcher has to cause swing and miss - not usually the same as the control pitch - often some type of breaking ball or fastball with movement. Sometimes even the change up.

 

The reason I bring this up is to emphasize all pitchers are not the same.  There are excellent breaking balls and there are weak breaking balls. Same goes for all pitches. It's not the pitch, it's the quality of the pitch!

 

Now if we look at the very highest level, certain things happen.  Actually it happens at nearly every next level right on up to the highest level.  Hitters get better, but more importantly they get smarter.  For example, Rookie Ball hitters chase pitches and tend to get themself out.  A Ball not as much, AA even less and AAA you better throw strikes because these hitters really know what they are doing.  Only the big long ball hitters chase anything.  Lots of experienced guys that have been around a long time that will not swing at anything they can't hit. They might be just below MLB level hitter or power, but they make life miserable for pitchers.  That is why you sometimes see AAA pitchers become more successful in the Big Leagues than they were at AAA.  In fact, I think Big League hitters might chase more pitches over all than AAA hitters. This is because the Big Leagues has so many more power hitters.

 

So, having a curveball doesn't mean anything unless it is a quality curveball. Same goes for all pitches. Also, having command of those pitches is important.  Very few pitchers have good command of three pitches. Very few pitchers have even two pitches that grade out equally high.  So most pitchers have what is mentioned above... The pitch they control the best... The pitch that creates outs early in the count (out pitch)... Their best "stuff" swing and miss pitch.  Once hitters figure out these things, they have a big advantage.

 

The fastball has three important components, other than deception, velocity - movement/life - command. For the most part, the same things are true for all pitches. A good 82 mph curveball is better than a equally good 72 mph curveball. A good 89 mph slider is better than an equally good 79 mph slider. (there are exceptions) the change up    is based on differential in addition to movement and command. So the more velocity on the fastball the more velocity on the change.  To much differential doesn't work as well and nether does too little differential. So in all ways velocity is important!  That said, velocity is developed by throwing the fastball.  I know I'm not on the topic of injury, but I feel the fastball is BY FAR the pitch that needs to be developed, because it also helps the other pitches become better once you start throwing them. Other than "winning" games at a young age, there is no reason to try mastering breaking balls.  That 12 year old breaking ball will not help develop the 18 year old breaking ball. I know some would debate that because of a few (very few) examples.  Not many star little league curveball pitchers still pitching in Professional Baseball. People seem to find an exception or two to form the opinion they favor or favors their major interest.  Truth is some people are born with the ability to throw a baseball harder than others.  All of these people don't always find this out.  But everyone who throws 90 or better had the ability to throw 90 or better. Sometimes it happens naturally, sometimes it happens because of coaching or other things.  But it has to be there to begin with.  It is such a big advantage, that it is almost foolish to ignore it.  And it all starts with the fastball!

 

After that long post, to get back on he topic.

 

People need to pay attention and quit abusing young pitchers in the interest of winning a  damn youth baseball game.

 

However, just like most everything, there is the risk vrs. reward factor involved. 

 

How do you become a great piano player?

How do you become a great swimmer?

How do you become a great hitter?

A great kicker? A great shortstop? 

 

Can you become a great pitcher by not pitching?  How do you master the art of pitching?  How do you build up the stamina or confidence to be a great pitcher?  How do you develop the pitches needed to be a great pitcher?  Could pitching be the one thing you actually get better at without doing it?

 

Of course, guys like Verlander and Strasburg and others didn't get where they are by NOT pitching. I really wonder just how successful a pitcher can become if he is babied too much.  Now, if safety is the major concern, there is a very simple solution. Never ever pitch!

 

Even under a watchful eye, pitching can result in injury.  When it involves stupidly or abuse, pitching is down right dangerous.  But babying, might keep them healthy, it lowers there chance for success.  And the chance of them reaching anywhere near their potential will likely be lost.

 

Pitching enough is important for development. Pitching too much is harmful.  Pitching the wrong way is harmful. Every individual is different!  We might be talking about this for a very long time and still never figure it out.

In the end, I think it usually comes downt to this. Play enough baseball, and you WILL see it. Coaches that want to win will so very often push their best/better pitchers just a few more innings rather than go with the 3-5th best pitchers. Rinse and repeat.

PG, Agreed with pretty much everything you said. On one point however- the breaking ball. I see no reason in youth and into hs to not try to develop and master the pitch. Perhaps maybe my kid is the exception. He doesnt have an overpowering fastball. Last year as a sophmore he topped out at 85-86 and mostly was in the cruise speed of 82-84. The year before he was topping at 80-82. Over the years he has worked hard at develpoing and trying to master the breaking ball as a means of getting outs quicker, getting out of innings faster. That has paid off well. Last year he had good command of the breaking ball and fastball and was able to keep pitch counts low saving the arm. He actually has more command of his breaking ball than he does his fastball. He can go inside, outside, low, high, etc even throwing it many times in full counts to get outs.

PG is on the mark, great post, should be golden and available for everyone to read.

 

Skylark,

There is no issue with any pitcher trying to improve any pitch, but seems to me with what you have said is that your son's breaking ball is his primary pitch and his FB secondary. That doesn't work after HS.

But let me ask, instead of working on the breaking ball to cut down on his pitches, why not his FB?  I think that is the point that some of us have been saying and maybe you weren't listening, the more one relies on what is refered to the secondary stuff and have success, the less and less the use of the primary pitch. As PG stated, everything works off of the FB, and that the assumption that I have always known, not the other way around.

I guess at this point there is nothing else to say as I stated and Bum agreed, the game is so much different in college and at the pro level, it's much harder to fool them than average HS players who probably will never play beyond HS.

 

No pitch will ever replace the importance of the FB, and the only time pitchers use  their secondary for first pitch strikes is when the FB isn't working that day. 

 

 As Bum said, you will understand someday and I agree it wasn't condescending but rather some sage advice.